Logs on 2025-01-29 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:47:54 | <Inst_> | Is Haskell still relevant in the age of LLM programmers? |
| 00:48:10 | <haskellbridge> | <Axman6> No |
| 00:48:15 | <haskellbridge> | <Axman6> we're all dead |
| 00:48:29 | <Inst_> | To some extent, I suspect its susceptibility to formal verification actually makes it quite suited. |
| 00:48:39 | <Inst_> | Actually, I'm dead inside, Axman6. |
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| 00:49:24 | <haskellbridge> | <Axman6> I sae someone say yesterday that they couldn't convince one of the LLMs that "addOne = (+ 1)" was valid haskell, so there's still hope |
| 00:49:40 | <geekosaur> | LLMs don't understand Haskell. Maybe if someone had fed them Wadler, SPJ, ekmett, Conor McBride, etc. instead of random blogs, they'd do a good job with it |
| 00:50:22 | <Inst_> | I used to be pro-Simple Haskell, now I'm pro-fancy types because when LLMs end up spitting code and the job of the developer is to validate it, the type system helps |
| 00:50:36 | <geekosaur> | (there's more where those 4 came from; sadly nobody's asking me for a bibliography to feed LLMs) |
| 00:50:56 | <Inst_> | I'm actually on WeChat with a segment of the Chinese Haskell community |
| 00:51:17 | <Inst_> | Let me get you the GitHub links for the game snake, someone complained it wasn't using classy MTL |
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| 00:51:33 | <Inst_> | Produced via both deepseek and 1.o |
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| 00:52:42 | <Inst__> | https://gist.github.com/yihuang/7344984aed9a13099146dc55dd4249e3 |
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| 00:54:46 | <Inst__> | The MTL one is a screenshot, can't link |
| 00:55:28 | <Inst__> | Other complaint is that the code deepseek / 1.o are producing are too imperative |
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| 01:07:26 | <Inst__> | :( I thought the code would be fun to tear apart |
| 01:07:55 | <Inst__> | It technically works, I mean, I haven't had a machine for a while, but it doesn't provide a concept of a loop, and the code is ugly |
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| 01:35:47 | <Inst_> | Let me babble a bit more: Haskell is still relevant because the readability, maintainability, purity, and comprehensibility of Haskell helps in a future age where most code is generated, because security from strong types is now paramount; you do not want the LLM to have its training data poisoned and accidentally expose your data, or worse, launch |
| 01:35:48 | <Inst_> | ze missiles, and only functional programming can provide that level of security |
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| 01:35:54 | <Inst_> | Sorry about this |
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| 02:13:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> EvanR_ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269080460_A_hierarchy_of_mendler_style_recursion_combinators |
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| 02:17:34 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Inst already left but an LLM would be bad (or at least harder to train) at type level magic because it is logic, not a freeform language. Something with reinforcement learning (or similar) would be better, since the problem is more similar to playing chess |
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| 03:10:09 | <monochrom> | Haskell will be relevant again after the LLM fad dies. |
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| 03:10:19 | <monochrom> | or rather, s/fad/bubble/ |
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| 03:10:57 | <monochrom> | Not to say that LLM per se will die, but all bubbles and overhypes die. Then LLM will shrink back to what it's really worth, which is still a lot. |
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| 03:12:09 | <monochrom> | For example, see how C became relevant again after the interweb bubble bursted. |
| 03:13:49 | <monochrom> | Although, I heard that DeepSeek is both LLM and reinforcement learning. It may yet do something. |
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| 03:32:04 | <hololeap> | deepseq `compare` DeepSeek = ... |
| 03:32:22 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 03:32:53 | <hololeap> | jk |
| 03:32:59 | <hololeap> | I'm just in it for the puns |
| 03:33:22 | <monochrom> | rnf = reinforcement network form >:) |
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| 03:39:01 | <hololeap> | understanding natural language is really valuable for a coding AI, but it should at least be trained to never write invalid code, and ideally write code that experienced programmers would like |
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| 05:00:41 | <Inst_> | monochrom: the practitioners on WeChat, I forget if they're doing Haskell, have already swapped to LLM / reinforcement learning AI for smaller coding tasks, with developer validation to guarantee coherency |
| 05:03:25 | <Inst_> | It does seem harder, however, to get the architecture right, especially for a language like Haskell when the software architecture can be rather subjective |
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| 05:09:30 | <monochrom> | I am not surprised that Haskell is harder to learn, but this is just due to having fewer examples to learn from. Even humans complain that there are not enough learning resources, so nevermind machines. This is just networking effect again (pun intended!). |
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| 05:22:46 | <Inst_> | In the Haskell case, I think it's because there's so much variation in style |
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| 07:08:52 | <dminuoso> | It's also the fact that Haskell is a niche language, which leads to far fewer code examples including natural language descriptions of said examples. |
| 07:09:41 | <dminuoso> | Coupled with the fact that those examples that are discussed tend to be rather complicated, say you have discussions relating to advanced typing features or maybe category theory, it is hard to learn from these samples alone. |
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| 07:11:54 | <dminuoso> | Language models not producing valid code (in the sense of syntax or typing) is a problem that in principle is solveable by multimodality, just not with the current popular architectures. |
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| 07:13:43 | <ski> | wonder how they fare at distinguishing say C from C++ |
| 07:13:53 | <ski> | (or different C standards) |
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| 07:15:45 | <dminuoso> | C++ is a bit of an extreme example, given that not even humans are able to accurately describe some of its semantics - even the ISO committee at times has debates what some of the standard really means. |
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| 09:45:14 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Isn't C++ parsing ambiguous? |
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| 09:55:40 | <tomsmeding> | if yuo don't keep a symbol table while parsing, yes |
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| 09:58:59 | <int-e> | https://blog.reverberate.org/2013/08/parsing-c-is-literally-undecidable.html |
| 09:59:14 | <int-e> | (different but related question) |
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| 09:59:47 | <dminuoso> | My favourite example is that you cannot give any explanation of what `constexpr` in C++ does exactly, if you consider its strange and baffling interactions with template instantiations and `friend` in mind. |
| 10:00:09 | <dminuoso> | It's certainly not `constant at compile-time`. |
| 10:00:21 | <dminuoso> | It's `mostly constant at compile-time, except when its not` |
| 10:01:23 | <dminuoso> | Or perhaps `possible to evaluate at compile-time, but not necessarily constant/pure` |
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| 10:30:07 | <probie> | Difficulty in parsing or ambiguous semantics are a problem for a compiler, or someone trying to comprehend code that does "silly things". It is not a problem for code generation, since one can stick to a known and sane subset |
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| 10:32:04 | <dminuoso> | probie: If a language model was trained with only a subset of the syntax, it could not recognize all valid programs. |
| 10:32:15 | <dminuoso> | Or describe them. |
| 10:32:26 | <dminuoso> | As it would (rightfully) reject them as invalid programs. |
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| 11:06:42 | <probie> | which is the same as your average c++ developer |
| 11:07:05 | <probie> | albeit _much_ faster to "give up" |
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| 12:46:26 | <dminuoso> | Is there a name for an interval where the beginning and end are the same value? |
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| 12:49:16 | <probie> | A point? |
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| 12:53:01 | <dminuoso> | Ah the wiki page of interval suggests "degenerate interval" |
| 12:53:37 | <dminuoso> | Ohh, I accidentally arrived on the simple.wikipedia.org page first, which is why I did not see this before. |
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| 13:41:38 | <dminuoso> | Is there some builtin glue for exit(2) in GHC haskell? |
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| 13:45:29 | <tomsmeding> | don't think so |
| 13:45:53 | <tomsmeding> | exitWith and friends throw an exception, which is slower and which you can catch |
| 13:47:26 | <dminuoso> | exitWith being an exception will get caught and considerable change the state of the problem I want to diagnose. |
| 13:47:48 | <tomsmeding> | FFI it is, I'm fairly sure |
| 13:48:05 | <dminuoso> | Alright, Ill do it via FFI then. |
| 13:48:07 | <Hecate> | yeah, drop down to FFI directly I'd say |
| 13:48:09 | <Hecate> | hi hi dminuoso btw :) |
| 13:48:14 | <dminuoso> | o/ |
| 13:48:16 | <Hecate> | how are you doing? |
| 13:48:18 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/libraries/unix-2.8.6.0-e212/System-Posix-Process.html#v:exitImmediately |
| 13:49:18 | <dminuoso> | Hecate: Doing great, back to doing Haskell things finally. |
| 13:49:22 | <dminuoso> | How are you? |
| 13:49:38 | <tomsmeding> | ah, right, exit(3) is only helpful over _exit(2) if you're in C and you have C stdio streams |
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| 13:49:45 | <dminuoso> | geekosaur: Mmm I think Ill just copy the implementation of that, thats all I want. |
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| 13:51:08 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Right, I mean exit(3) would be fine too I think (though I honestly dont know what kind of atexit and on_exit handlers the RTS has installed) |
| 13:51:30 | <dminuoso> | Not that I think the RTS would finger around in my database, but know whos what kind of exception handlers can install these things via RTS |
| 13:52:04 | <dminuoso> | Really want this process to ruthlessly stop in a particular spot so I can experiment with the database state. |
| 13:52:37 | <Hecate> | dminuoso: glad to hear! personally I'm trying to spare some energy for non-haskell stuff but I feel like the barrier to entry to *anything* is too high 😭 |
| 13:52:57 | <Hecate> | I'd like to do some GUI programming some day |
| 13:54:12 | <dminuoso> | Oh GUI, long time since I did any of that work. |
| 13:54:28 | <dminuoso> | (Though do web interfaces count? Not sure) |
| 13:54:42 | <Hecate> | they do, but I'm more interested in desktop toolkits |
| 13:55:06 | <dminuoso> | Well I did plenty of react some years ago, guess that counts even for desktop. |
| 13:55:15 | <Hecate> | I want to prototype a new way for CLI applications to send cosmetic metadata and control sequences to terminals |
| 13:55:17 | <dminuoso> | What drives your GUI interests? |
| 13:55:22 | <Hecate> | but that means writing a whole new terminal |
| 13:55:36 | <dminuoso> | Terminals are.. complicated. |
| 13:55:50 | <Hecate> | only if you emulate VT100 |
| 13:55:54 | <Hecate> | well, that's not true |
| 13:55:57 | <Hecate> | they're GUIs |
| 13:56:00 | <Hecate> | which are complicated |
| 13:56:02 | <dminuoso> | If it was only VT100 it was simple. |
| 13:57:01 | <Hecate> | true, VT100 + numerous extensions |
| 13:57:08 | <Hecate> | but I don't care for backwards compatibility |
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| 14:06:48 | <[exa]> | Hecate: write a emulator that renders your terminal into a normal terminal, like tmux or so |
| 14:07:15 | <[exa]> | I even think there's something on hackage that already does so |
| 14:10:39 | <[exa]> | Hecate: re GUI programming, have a look at imgui, that's truly lovely. I want to make a full haskell port someday |
| 14:17:36 | <Hecate> | I see that someone's made bindings to iced! |
| 14:17:45 | <Hecate> | https://github.com/ibaryshnikov/iced-hs?tab=readme-ov-file |
| 14:18:17 | <Hecate> | < [exa]> Hecate: write a emulator that renders your terminal into a normal terminal, like tmux or so // Hmm, but do I want to deal with the madness of traditional terminals…? |
| 14:18:20 | <Hecate> | :D |
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| 14:18:57 | <dminuoso> | Hey you said you wanted to write a terminal. You didn't say anything about staying sane. |
| 14:19:12 | <[exa]> | Hecate: there's vty and/or brick on the terminal side that wraps ncurses for you, you don't need to deal with that; on the other side you have "your" protocol which may be sane |
| 14:19:50 | <merijn> | [exa]: Those do not wrap ncurses |
| 14:20:32 | <merijn> | vty is an alternative to ncurses |
| 14:20:39 | <[exa]> | ah ok, even better then |
| 14:20:41 | <merijn> | There are also actual ncurses wrappers |
| 14:21:19 | <dminuoso> | Does hspec have some kind of `bracket` equivalent? I cant seem to find anything like after__ :: (a -> IO b) -> SpecWith a -> SpecWith b |
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| 14:21:42 | <dminuoso> | All I want is to setup/teardown of some test environment |
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| 14:23:01 | <merijn> | dminuoso: In my experience pseudo english DSLs like hspec hate predictability, so I'm not sure if that even exists |
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| 14:28:44 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: atexit is very much a C convenience thing, I would be highly surprised if the GHC RTS uses that |
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| 15:25:02 | <ski> | dminuoso : singleton |
| 15:25:32 | <ski> | (arguably, the empty interval is also degenerate) |
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| 20:10:39 | <fr33domlover> | sm: Turning off ipv6 fixed the issue (but I wonder why, what's the point of ipv6 if it doesn't work) |
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| 20:11:44 | <EvanR> | if turning off ipv6 fixes something then your network is broken |
| 20:11:45 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> fr33domlover: good to know! |
| 20:12:01 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> or github has a misconfiguration |
| 20:12:36 | <EvanR> | doubting ipv6 right is like doubting UTF-8 encoding right now (somehow a thing people do lol) |
| 20:12:39 | <EvanR> | right now* |
| 20:13:42 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> "fping -6 raw.githubusercontent.com" says no route to host (or with -l, says timed out). Maybe someone can say what exactly is wrong |
| 20:14:10 | <fr33domlover> | I was doing `git push` via SSH to some repo (on codeberg.org) and that also failed until I turned off ipv6... some other time I'll check more websites (overall my internet connection was working though) |
| 20:14:30 | <c_wraith> | it doesn't always mean the network is broken. Sometimes it means the software is broken. |
| 20:17:20 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oh interesting, there's a ping6 (intentionally kept separate from ping) |
| 20:17:43 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> and it too says no route, for me |
| 20:18:23 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> maybe _I_ have ipv6 turned off... |
| 20:19:05 | <geekosaur> | traceroute |
| 20:19:13 | <geekosaur> | (traceroute6 might be separate) |
| 20:19:28 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> tis! |
| 20:19:29 | <geekosaur> | (I can't check as my ISP only offers IPv6 to business users, wtf) |
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| 20:19:38 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> traceroute6: Warning: raw.githubusercontent.com has multiple addresses; using 2606:50c0:8000::154 |
| 20:19:38 | <haskellbridge> | connect: No route to host |
| 20:19:41 | <geekosaur> | actually I prefer mtr, but |
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| 20:20:40 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> have you seen trip (trippy) ? It's also nice |
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| 20:38:59 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://test-ipv6.com looks pretty useful |
| 20:39:25 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I see that ipv6 isn't a thing that everyone has yet |
| 20:40:50 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I seem not to have it, with spectrum internet |
| 20:42:45 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> curl -6 https://raw.githubusercontent.com or curl -6 https://ifconfig.co succeed, by falling back to ipv4. stack (http-client) doesn't do that perhaps |
| 20:42:53 | <TMA> | when I spoke to a ISP salesman a few years ago, I asked for IPv6... he immediately categorized me as a troublemaker |
| 20:49:08 | <EvanR> | <sm> :( |
| 20:49:33 | <EvanR> | I had ipv6 automatically with cox cable and now with AT&T |
| 20:49:43 | <EvanR> | flabbergasted by it |
| 20:50:01 | <geekosaur> | yeh, I'm also on Spectrum, IPv6 is business only afaict |
| 20:50:18 | <geekosaur> | it's 2024, get with it already |
| 20:50:18 | <EvanR> | I know someone in seattle who has ipv6 provided, but they turned it off regardless out of fear uncertainty and doubt xD |
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| 20:52:30 | <darkling> | TMA: Last time I asked an ISP about IPv6, it took them five minutes and a call to tech support to work out what it was... |
| 20:53:09 | <darkling> | (They were doorstepping me to switch, and I was trying to be awkward. My current ISP has done it natively on consumer lines for at least 15 years). |
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| 20:58:05 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> somehow, it seems http-client sometimes/for some people picks the ipv6 address to connect to, even when there's no ipv6 connectivity. I wonder how this is supposed to work |
| 20:59:34 | <TMA> | it looks like my modem cannot do IPv6 :( |
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| 21:01:15 | <geekosaur> | (knocking my network downm briefly, haskellbridge will probably dsconnect) |
| 21:01:18 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> geekosaur: interesting, there's https://www.spectrum.net/support/internet/ipv6-faq but it's vague |
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| 21:06:46 | <geekosaur> | hm. interestingly, the router didnt reset when I switched it over. but autoconfigure selected 6to4 tunnel, meaning spectrum didn't give me an ipv6 address |
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| 21:10:02 | <geekosaur> | even more interesting, it seems to actually work, so this is Spectrum providing the 6to4 service |
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| 21:16:16 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> what does curl -6 https://ifconfig.co show, now ? |
| 21:16:34 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> and ping6 ifconfig.co ? |
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| 21:17:38 | <geekosaur> | you mean me? an ipv6 address |
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| 21:18:10 | geekosaur | wonders if it's worth configuring the stack for ipv6 |
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| 21:21:17 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yup, I didn't understand the 6to4 comments so was wondering. |
| 21:21:17 | <haskellbridge> | (But my spectrum internet just now randomly cut out for a minute, so I think it is warning me against being so curious :) |
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| 21:28:15 | <geekosaur> | it's tunneling ipv6 through ipv4 instead of using direct ipv6 |
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| 23:07:39 | <yin> | any reason why ghcup is not on *insert repo* and makes up play dependency-pong everytime we install it? |
| 23:08:14 | <int-e> | . o O ( those are words ) |
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| 23:11:36 | <int-e> | I mean there's https://github.com/haskell/ghcup-hs and https://github.com/haskell/ghcup-metadata ...and there was existing Haskell infrastructure to piggy-back on for the binaries. |
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| 23:12:09 | <int-e> | Which may or may not partially answer the question. |
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| 23:15:09 | <yin> | i guess my problem would be solved if the installer checked for missing dependencies *before* starting the installation process |
| 23:15:38 | <yin> | it usually takes me a few tries |
| 23:16:18 | <geekosaur> | the problem with that is that every distro calls them something different |
| 23:17:31 | <yin> | yes, i wish i could `<packagemanager> install ghcup> |
| 23:17:46 | <int-e> | there's https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/install/#system-requirements ...this way ghcup doesn't have to know every single distribution on Earth |
| 23:18:01 | <geekosaur> | you can on some distros. you then can't use its self-upgrade safely |
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| 23:18:28 | <geekosaur> | (potentially you can break your package manager if you do it as root) |
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| 23:19:09 | <yin> | int-e: some dependencies are missing there and, in my case today, my distro is not on that list |
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| 23:20:52 | <geekosaur> | (I say this as someone who's had to fix an OpenSuSE install and helped RH/Fedora and Debian users try to recover from installing/upgrading the wrong thing) |
| 23:21:05 | <int-e> | Well then ghcup itself probably wouldn't know about it either. So as geekosaur is basically saying it becomes a distro issue; Noone is stopping distros from packaging it. |
| 23:22:27 | <geekosaur> | (granting the package manager probably doesn't use ghcup, so probably won't do anything beyond complaining that it no longer matches the package manager database) |
| 23:23:07 | <int-e> | It may be hard to convince a distro to provide an installer for non-distro packages but https://packages.debian.org/sid/rustup shows that it can be done :P |
| 23:24:27 | <geekosaur> | there's a reason pip (python package installer) now has a "distro mode" that disables installing/upgrading system packages and warns you that you can break your distro by overriding it |
| 23:28:58 | <geekosaur> | oh, it's fine as lomng as it does per-user installs. it's the system-wide ones that are a problem |
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| 23:29:30 | <geekosaur> | rustup does per-user installs, in particular |
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| 23:32:10 | <geekosaur> | similarly virtualenv was never a problem (it's just been superseded by `python -m venv`) |
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| 23:57:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Axman6> There's a poem explaining what a parser combinator is, but I can't find it online, anyone have a link to it? "A parser is a function from strings to pairs of things and strings", but I think I'm missing some words |
| 23:57:25 | <haskellbridge> | <Axman6> jackdk I'm sure you know it off by heart |
| 23:57:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Axman6> Ah found it: https://blog.nikosbaxevanis.com/2020/03/30/the-rhyme-of-the-altered-parser/ |
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