Logs on 2025-02-01 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:09:01 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Leary: could you expand that a little ? $> foo comments ? |
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| 00:18:13 | <Leary> | sm: If you use the `--allow-eval` or `--enable-eval` flags in ghcid or ghciwatch respectively, they look for comments of the form `-- $> <code>` in your source to evaluate. |
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| 00:28:13 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> good to know! |
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| 02:33:17 | <euouae> | Hello I was using Debug.Trace to check up on sharing |
| 02:33:34 | <euouae> | but e.g. `let y = trace "y-demanded" 1 in (y, y)` will print two y-demanded messages. Why? I thought 'y' would be shared in the pair expression |
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| 02:33:48 | <euouae> | Is it just because sharing (for some reason) didn't happen there? |
| 02:34:10 | <geekosaur> | did you use optimization? |
| 02:34:19 | <geekosaur> | (if you were doing it in ghci, you weren't) |
| 02:34:24 | <int-e> | compare let y = trace "y-demanded" 1 :: Integer in (y, y) |
| 02:34:38 | <int-e> | then figure out why adding a type signature makes a difference |
| 02:34:45 | <geekosaur> | oh, right |
| 02:35:29 | <int-e> | the remark about optimizations is valid too of course |
| 02:36:07 | <EvanR> | that's so tricky |
| 02:36:23 | <euouae> | because the type inference prevents it from being shared? |
| 02:36:34 | <geekosaur> | type inference didn't happen |
| 02:36:38 | <geekosaur> | there's a piece missing |
| 02:36:50 | <geekosaur> | well, it did but it didn't reach a final result |
| 02:36:55 | <int-e> | :t 1 |
| 02:36:56 | <lambdabot> | Num p => p |
| 02:37:09 | <euouae> | it being Num doesn't tell me much I don't know what to make of it |
| 02:37:13 | <EvanR> | 1 is like a function waiting to be given a Num instance |
| 02:37:24 | <EvanR> | rather than a number |
| 02:37:33 | <geekosaur> | :t let y = 1 in (y,y) |
| 02:37:34 | <lambdabot> | (Num a, Num b) => (a, b) |
| 02:37:57 | <geekosaur> | think about that one for a bit |
| 02:38:12 | <euouae> | well, so it is type inference right |
| 02:38:18 | <euouae> | because I can do :: (Int, Double) |
| 02:38:47 | <EvanR> | :t let y = 1 in (y,y) :: (Int, Double) |
| 02:38:48 | <lambdabot> | (Int, Double) |
| 02:38:53 | <EvanR> | now it's a pair of numbers |
| 02:38:54 | <int-e> | well sharing and lack thereof is firmly a runtime phenomenon |
| 02:39:03 | <int-e> | so it's not *just* type inference |
| 02:39:25 | <euouae> | Yeah, `let x = trace "foo" 1 in (x :: Int, x :: Int)` will still print two foos |
| 02:39:38 | <EvanR> | pair of numbers vs "like a function waiting for two different Num instances, that may or may not happen to be the same instance" |
| 02:39:40 | <euouae> | it's something more than that |
| 02:40:30 | <euouae> | when you say function do you mean type function |
| 02:40:37 | <EvanR> | no |
| 02:40:41 | <euouae> | the `p` argument in Num p => p? |
| 02:40:50 | <EvanR> | no the => in Num p => p |
| 02:41:07 | <geekosaur> | as long as it has a constraint, it's like a partially applied function. (=> looks like -> for a reason) the thing that needs to be applied is an instance dictionary |
| 02:41:16 | <int-e> | Concretely at runtime, the argument is a Num dictionary for p. |
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| 02:41:31 | <euouae> | I haven't heard of dictionary before |
| 02:41:32 | <geekosaur> | by the time you apply it to the tuple, it's too late to go back and do sharing. if you specify it in the let, it can share |
| 02:42:03 | <int-e> | (Dictionaries are an implementation detail of type classes.) |
| 02:42:12 | <geekosaur> | have you reached typeclasses yet? |
| 02:42:26 | <euouae> | No I just roughly know they have to do with interfaces |
| 02:42:32 | <EvanR> | D: |
| 02:42:35 | <int-e> | (And there are alternatives... notably, JHC passed type descriptors instead.) |
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| 02:43:24 | <EvanR> | is passing type descriptors tangibly different in practice |
| 02:43:27 | <geekosaur> | "interfaces" is a flawed attempt to understand typeclasses in terms of something better known, much like all the failed monad tutorials floating around the internet |
| 02:43:57 | <euouae> | failure does not worry me |
| 02:44:17 | <EvanR> | > fail "monad tutorial failed" |
| 02:44:18 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 02:44:18 | <lambdabot> | • Ambiguous type variables ‘m0’, |
| 02:44:18 | <lambdabot> | ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M13899420735... |
| 02:44:20 | <geekosaur> | it should, you will have problems if you insist on "thats good enlugh isnt it?" |
| 02:44:28 | <geekosaur> | because it won't be good enough |
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| 02:45:34 | <euouae> | so anyway, sharing happens in concrete types? |
| 02:45:40 | <int-e> | EvanR: Hmm I suspect it mostly affects optimization. But you can probably construct degenerate examples where type descriptors blow up (you construct an arbitrary sized type descriptor) but the functions associated with the class instances don't. (It's `coerce` all the way.) If you only worry about whether something is a function or not at runtime... no it makes no difference. |
| 02:46:08 | <EvanR> | euouae, for sharing to be possible, the two expressions would have to be known to evaluate to the same value |
| 02:46:11 | <EvanR> | then you can share the value |
| 02:46:33 | <EvanR> | in your example they very well may not be the same value |
| 02:46:35 | <EvanR> | or even the same type |
| 02:46:47 | <euouae> | so what happens with (x :: Int, x :: Int) that still prevents it from being shared? |
| 02:47:05 | <euouae> | that x::Int is unevaluated while x::Int evaluates to `x` (but Int now) and then _that_ thunk gets shared? |
| 02:47:08 | <EvanR> | x was a polymorphic thing waiting to be told what Num instance to use |
| 02:47:40 | <EvanR> | presumably a smart enough compiler could look at (x :: Int, x :: Int) and deduce they must evaluate to the same thing |
| 02:47:46 | <EvanR> | but doesn't? |
| 02:47:50 | <geekosaur> | as I said earlier, if you make them both Int when you are tupling them, it's too late; the decision was made that it couldn't share them |
| 02:48:09 | <geekosaur> | because they might not be the same type when applied |
| 02:48:12 | <euouae> | right but is there some deeper understanding to draw from that geekosaur ? |
| 02:48:24 | <int-e> | euouae: there's *no* CSE |
| 02:48:31 | <EvanR> | oh that's why |
| 02:48:39 | <euouae> | not sure what CSE is |
| 02:48:45 | <int-e> | in your context, which is GHCi (so unoptimized bytecode) |
| 02:48:50 | <geekosaur> | "common subexpression elimination" |
| 02:49:14 | <EvanR> | CSE could make let x = 1 in (x::Int,x::Int) into let x = 1 :: Int in (x,x) |
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| 02:49:25 | <euouae> | ah I see. What is the subexpression? the x in the tuple? |
| 02:49:29 | <EvanR> | x::Int |
| 02:50:25 | <EvanR> | and then sharing would be an optimization on top of that |
| 02:50:59 | <euouae> | thank you |
| 02:52:23 | <EvanR> | you're in good shape if you don't care about sharing xD |
| 02:52:34 | <EvanR> | otherwise D: |
| 02:53:29 | <EvanR> | it's not represented in the semantics which is always fun |
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| 03:11:15 | <euouae> | <https://wiki.haskell.org/GHC_optimisations#Common_subexpression_elimination> "Long story short: "If you care about CSE, do it by hand." " |
| 03:11:34 | <euouae> | One would think `let x = 1 in (x, x)` is doing CSE by hand but... classes :D tricky stuff |
| 03:14:00 | <euouae> | what is a type that is not like that called? |
| 03:14:11 | <euouae> | because 1 as a type is .. a kind? not a type? |
| 03:14:38 | <euouae> | `Num a => a` versus `a`. Is it OK to call it concrete type (the latter) or do I call it something else? Wah is the former called? |
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| 03:17:36 | <ncf> | a is all but concrete! |
| 03:17:38 | <int-e> | Cop-out: it's a value. (Functions are values.) |
| 03:18:04 | <ncf> | i suggest calling the former Num a => a and the latter a. don't make up words |
| 03:18:50 | <int-e> | You can cook up terminology like "instance-dependent value" but I don't think we have any standard terminology for this. |
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| 03:26:51 | <Leary> | euouae: The question is somewhat confused. Perhaps you want to describe values, not types, with 'monomorphic' for `1 :: Int` and 'polymorphic' for `1 :: forall a. Num a => a`. That somewhat incidentally ends up capturing whether or not the value is expecting a constraint, since GHC ensures known constraints are supplied. |
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| 03:33:15 | <euouae> | how come `forall` pops up in Haskell source code? is it legal haskell? |
| 03:33:20 | <euouae> | e.g. stuff in Base |
| 03:34:18 | <euouae> | Monomorphic value is fine; I'm just trying to say how I think CSE would be manually done if desired as an optimization (ensuring the value is monomorphic with type annotations) |
| 03:34:22 | <int-e> | What's your definition of "legal"? A lot of Haskell code only works with GHC. |
| 03:34:30 | <Leary> | All type variables are implicitly or explicitly introduced with `forall`, though you need to enable language extensions so GHC will accept it. |
| 03:34:45 | <int-e> | The `base` that comes with GHC in particular is tied to GHC. |
| 03:34:50 | <euouae> | I see |
| 03:35:33 | <int-e> | (There was a time when hugs and GHC shared most of the base libraries but that's in the distant past. Like, over 2 decades ago.) |
| 03:36:32 | <euouae> | Well, I do remember when Hugs was a thing |
| 03:36:41 | <euouae> | I had attempted to learn haskell around 18 years ago I think |
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| 03:39:03 | <int-e> | Hmm. So you hit the brief window when there were half a dozen actively developed Haskell implementations? Maybe it was just four. |
| 03:39:17 | <EvanR> | forall is how you introduce type variables for polymorphism purposes |
| 03:39:36 | <EvanR> | normally it's understood and not written in a type sig |
| 03:39:45 | <EvanR> | map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] |
| 03:39:57 | <EvanR> | there's really a forall a b . at the beginning of that |
| 03:40:07 | <int-e> | or is that forall b a. :-) |
| 03:40:13 | <euouae> | yes I did |
| 03:40:19 | <euouae> | there was a lot of hype back then |
| 03:40:26 | <EvanR> | but with rank N types and ScopedTypeVariables you need explicit forall for reasons |
| 03:41:01 | <euouae> | I'm not super interested in the crazy type theory stuff; I already had some exposure with Coq so at least I saw it in action elsewhere |
| 03:41:18 | <euouae> | perhaps only interested as it pertains to my purposes of writing software |
| 03:41:28 | <EvanR> | type theory has to do with logic |
| 03:41:35 | <EvanR> | haskell is illogical so you're good |
| 03:41:41 | <euouae> | I'm good |
| 03:41:41 | <euouae> | :P |
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| 11:02:34 | <lisbeths`> | everybody asleep but #haskell never sleeps |
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| 11:03:05 | <lisbeths`> | i ran out of dopamine to write my fastlisp compiler https://github.com/memesmith0/fastlisp |
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| 11:08:57 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I didn't see Haskell |
| 11:09:22 | <lisbeths`> | are you referring to me? |
| 11:11:38 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> yes. since you come here to ask, might I suggest you should probably try Haskell's parser combinator,you code probably will be 5-10 times less in Haskell. |
| 11:11:47 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> and clearer. |
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| 11:14:26 | <lisbeths`> | I don't know alot of haskell. this is just a prototype written in python |
| 11:14:44 | <lisbeths`> | there is already a binary lambda calculus interpreter in haskell afaik |
| 11:15:20 | <lisbeths`> | the connection between this and haskell is that every valid fastlisp program is a pure lambda |
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| 11:16:43 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> mkay. how can we help? |
| 11:18:21 | <lisbeths`> | well once i get this compiler working then it can interoperate with haskell in a purely functional way |
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| 11:19:20 | <lisbeths`> | some of the people in my project want to interoperate with haskell but i have to focus more on interoperating with python and posix |
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| 11:24:48 | <lisbeths> | I apologize i lost connection |
| 11:25:02 | <lisbeths> | my langauge is a universal donor to haskell and haskell seems to be a universal donor to my language |
| 11:25:14 | <lisbeths> | so some of the folks in my project are very interested in interoperating with haskell |
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| 11:40:42 | ski | idly wonders what "universal donor" means, in this context |
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| 11:45:54 | <lisbeths> | every fastlisp program is a pure lambda so fastlisp code is a universal donor to haskell |
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| 11:49:00 | haskellbridge | hellwolf thinks it must be an English and Python creole that I can't decipher neither. |
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| 11:52:09 | <lisbeths> | no the python code merely converts from one format of expressing lambda expressions to another format |
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| 11:52:24 | <lisbeths> | a universal format for lambdas called blc is interpretable by haskell already afaik |
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| 11:53:44 | <lisbeths> | it wouldn't matter which language the compiler was written in it could be written in ruby, perl, or php |
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| 12:32:47 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> perhaps you would be interested in knowing Ghc core is entirely built around a few constructors: https://x.com/tritlo/status/1885283297137205357 |
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| 14:55:57 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
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| 15:46:11 | × | weary-traveler quits (~user@user/user363627) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
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| 16:34:54 | × | weary-traveler quits (~user@user/user363627) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
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| 16:46:54 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
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| 18:11:37 | × | euleritian quits (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-139-135.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 18:19:27 | × | bitdex quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 19:53:44 | ljdarj1 | is now known as ljdarj |
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| 20:59:29 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 21:00:42 | × | Digit quits (~user@user/digit) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 21:24:26 | × | notzmv quits (~umar@user/notzmv) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 21:27:03 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
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| 21:31:36 | × | monochrom quits (trebla@216.138.220.146) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
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| 22:10:39 | <sim590> | I'm realizing that I need to use a concurrent access capable datatype for the state of my application in order to modify/read the state on different threads. At first I had a new type around `StateT MyState IO a`. So I think I can change it to `StateT (MVar MyState) IO a`. But I read on stackoverflow that for updating data, I should use TVar instead, but I don't see why. If I understand correctly, |
| 22:10:41 | <sim590> | I can make sure to access properly the data by doing `takeMVar` when I need it and `putMVar` when I'm finished modifying it. I have the impression that it is equivalent to using stm's `modifyTVar`. Am I mistaken? Why should I really avoid using MVar over TVar ? |
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| 22:12:10 | <sim590> | Context: MyState contains a Map of values that either concurrently called callbacks are gonna possibly modify in addition to some user's call to a a function on the main thread that would explicitly modify the state. |
| 22:12:15 | <geekosaur> | MVar requires you to make sure you do everything correctly, especially if you have multiple of them. TVar more or less handles this automatically, retrying transactions as needed. So it's less error-prone |
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| 22:13:57 | <sim590> | Is it possible to not use it correctly? I saw readTVar, but also readTVarIO. I didn't see how I could put STM inside my newtype signature, so I was just thinking to use readTVarIO. Is that gonna play well with the features you just talked about for TVar ? |
| 22:14:05 | <Leary> | sim590: If you make a mistake with MVar---and the bar for correctness here is much higher than it looks due to pitfalls of exception handling---your program will be bogged down in deadlocks that are quite difficult to debug. |
| 22:14:12 | <geekosaur> | also I'd note that since you don't need to switch MVars, you probably want to use ReaderT instead of StateT |
| 22:15:09 | <sim590> | geekosaur: oh right. I actually thought to something close to that reasoning. I relized I didn't read to write the state anymore. |
| 22:15:19 | <sim590> | need to* |
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| 22:16:15 | <sim590> | Leary: Right. So, if I don't want to risk that, I should use TVar. |
| 22:16:36 | <geekosaur> | anyway you would use newTVarIO to get the TVar, then use atomically in IO to work with it |
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| 22:18:36 | <L29Ah> | is there a dataset to benchmark LLM Haskell coding capability? |
| 22:19:12 | <sim590> | OK. So, to resume, I would need to have my newtype as `ReaderT (TVar MyState) IO a` and I don't need to put STM anywhere in there. That's what was buggin gme. |
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| 22:21:00 | <geekosaur> | right, when you want to use STM, you use `atomically` which runs an STM transaction and gives you back an IO action |
| 22:21:59 | <sim590> | OK. That makes sense. |
| 22:22:02 | <sim590> | Thanks! |
| 22:22:16 | <geekosaur> | you don't want your STM transactions to be too big (and transactions can't be shared across threads for what I hope are obvious reasons) or they'll be more prone to deadlocking |
| 22:22:30 | <Leary> | sim590: I suggest `newtype YourAppT f a = YourAppT (ReaderT (TVar YourState) f a)`, so you can instantiate `f` at either `IO` or `STM` as convenient. In particular, writing STM-only functions in `YourAppT STM` means you can compose them without loss of atomicity. |
| 22:22:33 | <geekosaur> | so most stuff should be in IO and you dive into STM when needed |
| 22:23:33 | <sim590> | Leary: right. I see! |
| 22:23:52 | <sim590> | geekosaur: right. Got it. |
| 22:24:44 | <geekosaur> | L29Ah, not that I'm aware of, just a lot of anecdata |
| 22:24:53 | <geekosaur> | possibly someone should assemble one |
| 22:25:07 | <geekosaur> | (I did try it once and it failed miserably) |
| 22:25:16 | <geekosaur> | (it = chatgpt) |
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| 22:26:23 | <geekosaur> | (that said, what I asked for wasn't merely Haskell buit highly xmonad-specific which probably stacked the deck against it) |
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| 23:41:18 | <sim590> | geekosaur: it doesn't seem like it's possible to block access to a TVar while doing an IO action. All I can do is STM action and STM is not MonadIO. Am I correct? |
| 23:42:05 | <geekosaur> | correct and deliberately so. how do you retry an IO action? |
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| 23:50:06 | <sim590> | geekosaur: Yeah, I understand. But, then, if I'm not mistaken, that is something I could be doing with MVars though? |
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| 23:52:28 | <EvanR> | anything you can do with an MVar you can do with a TVar (Maybe a) |
| 23:52:34 | <geekosaur> | oh yes, it'll happily let you make a mess |
| 23:52:35 | <Leary> | sim590: You can't ever block access to a `TVar`. You instead hide inconsistent states within atomic transactions, so you don't need to. |
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| 23:53:01 | <geekosaur> | but if that's really what you want to do, just use an IORef |
| 23:53:46 | <EvanR> | it's just that you generally can't do IO in the middle of a transaction |
| 23:54:20 | <EvanR> | but there's a "trust me" trap door for that in which all bets are off if your I/O matters |
| 23:55:24 | <sim590> | OK. I'll try to inflate my brain so I can do what I need only using TVars. Up to now, I think I can do it. |
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| 23:55:41 | <geekosaur> | that, or you have a very wrong model of concurrent access which you will need to figure out before this will work with either |
All times are in UTC on 2025-02-01.