Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2025-02-09 (liberachat/#haskell)

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04:35:53 <tri> hi, why is this not working please?
04:35:55 <tri> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/jV6JdsBd
04:36:48 <tri> it has something to do with 2 parameters passing into zip, but I can't really explain
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04:43:45 <tri> seems like I can only compose 1 input function...
04:44:02 <monochrom> Do you accept: getTotalDistance xs ys = sum (zipWith (\(left, right) -> abs $ left -right) xs ys)
04:45:48 <tri> yea that works, I'm just trying to make it work using function composition. I forgot what concept force me to use 1 input function to compose, I have to look it up
04:47:13 × yegorc quits (~yegorc@user/yegorc) (Quit: Leaving)
04:47:30 <tri> btw I've just come back to Haskell after a long break, and still seeing you here helping people out. Thank you
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04:57:26 <tri> oh the (.) is actually a function, which takes two 1-input functions
04:57:46 <tri> so that's why zip was failing because it is a 2-input function
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05:01:09 <monochrom> Now to probe the boundary of your understanding, "g xs ys = sum (zipWith f xs ys)" can still be simplified with (.), but only as: g xs = sum . zipWith f xs
05:06:27 <tri> hmm ok
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05:41:06 <tri> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/XPlMpEUw
05:42:09 <tri> Cannot apply expression of type ‘m0 a0’
05:42:09 <tri> to a visible type argument ‘[Int]
05:42:20 <tri> how could I fix this please? I don't understand the error message, especially m0 and a0
05:42:32 <c_wraith> Add parens
05:42:36 <c_wraith> return (...)
05:42:47 <int-e> :t return read
05:42:48 <lambdabot> (Monad m, Read a) => m (String -> a)
05:43:01 <int-e> that's the m0 a0, more or less
05:43:18 <int-e> the "expression of type ‘m0 a0’" I mean
05:43:44 <int-e> you can drop the @[Int], but you still need parentheses
05:44:14 × ljdarj quits (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
05:44:21 <int-e> (the type will then be taken from the type signature or `readList`)
05:44:29 <int-e> s/or/of/
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05:45:36 <int-e> tri: keep in mind that in Haskell `return` is a function, not syntax.
05:46:09 <monochrom> Conversely, I see people writing in C "return(x+y)" all the time. :)
05:47:55 <tri> ah! thank you. It's been a long time since I last used Haskell :)
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05:56:45 <ski> @type readLn -- tri
05:56:45 <lambdabot> Read a => IO a
05:57:23 <ski> better to use that, rather than `getLine' & `read'
05:58:18 <ski> (if there's parse-error, that will raise the error while the action is executed, as opposed to when the result is forced)
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06:08:29 <tri> thank you
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07:47:53 <r-sta> why dont we have numbers at type level?
07:48:27 <r-sta> is it because the class system does not work at type level?
07:48:35 <r-sta> can i use associated type families?
07:48:53 <r-sta> i should be able to have a binary encoding be just as good as Nats
07:49:19 <r-sta> esp because when its supposed to recurse over nat parametric instances...
07:49:25 <r-sta> and it has to prove constraints
07:49:51 <r-sta> its always saying things like "idk if 1+(x-1) = x" and stuff
07:50:40 <r-sta> maybe im being mistaken to think that an abstract representation for numbers would solve anything
07:51:13 <r-sta> infact, i always opt for the represtanttion that does basically tail recursion by being a piano natural
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08:48:38 <tomsmeding> peutri: that's hilarious.
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08:48:59 <tomsmeding> you can even read it as "fix it" with a bit of imagination.
08:49:17 <tomsmeding> :t fix error
08:49:18 <lambdabot> [Char]
08:49:22 <tomsmeding> ah too bad
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09:20:20 <mauke> fix id ~ undefined
09:20:38 <mauke> Void ~ newtype V = MkV V
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11:43:49 <famubu> How can we get a function to decrement an integer like we can increment with `(+1)`? I tried `(-1)` but it is same as `-1`.
11:44:40 <famubu> `(-1) 4` doesn't decrement, but `(1-) 4` does.
11:45:36 <tomsmeding> :t subtract 1
11:45:37 <lambdabot> Num a => a -> a
11:46:03 <tomsmeding> or set LexicalNegation and use (- 1) :p
11:46:29 <tomsmeding> famubu: ^
11:51:30 <mauke> > map (\f -> f 4) [subtract 1, pred, (+(-1))]
11:51:31 <lambdabot> [3,3,3]
11:52:14 <mauke> > map (\f -> f 4) [subtract 1, pred, (+(-1)), flip (-) 1]
11:52:16 <lambdabot> [3,3,3,3]
11:53:00 <tomsmeding> mind that one of those is not like the others
11:53:13 <mauke> oh, it's about to get wrose
11:53:24 <tomsmeding> > map (\f -> f (minBound :: Int)) [subtract 1, (+(-1)), flip (-) 1, pred]
11:53:25 <lambdabot> [9223372036854775807,9223372036854775807,9223372036854775807,*Exception: Pre...
11:53:42 <tomsmeding> > succ (maxBound :: Int) -- similarly
11:53:43 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.Enum.succ{Int}: tried to take `succ' of maxBound
11:54:12 <mauke> > map (\f -> f 4) [subtract 1, pred, (+(-1)), flip (-) 1, complement . negate]
11:54:14 <lambdabot> [3,3,3,3,3]
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12:02:30 <int-e> :t (-1+)
12:02:30 <lambdabot> Num a => a -> a
12:02:57 <tomsmeding> wait why is that a thing without LexicalNegation
12:03:24 <int-e> I don't know. It's a thing that GHC and Hugs used to disagree on. Hugs wanted (+ -1) instead.
12:04:08 <int-e> the precedence of unary minus agrees with the default ones of - and + (what's that, 5? No, it's 6.
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12:09:06 <mauke> pickup_artist = complement . negate
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12:09:58 <tomsmeding> map ($ 4) [complement <$> negate, complement <&> negate]
12:10:00 <tomsmeding> > map ($ 4) [complement <$> negate, complement <&> negate]
12:10:02 <lambdabot> [3,5]
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12:14:34 <int-e> the mother of all bit hacks
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13:14:47 <euouae> Does anyone else find lsp-haskell to be finicky on emacs?
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14:23:15 <kaol> > take 5 [1..5] :: [NominalDiffTime]
14:23:16 <lambdabot> error:
14:23:17 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘NominalDiffTime’
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15:56:19 <EvanR> % take 5 [1..5] :: [NominalDiffTime]
15:56:19 <yahb2> <interactive>:115:19: error: [GHC-76037] ; Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘NominalDiffTime’
15:57:01 <EvanR> the bots inhabit a dimension without time like that entity at the end of dr strange
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15:59:26 <ski> % import Data.Time.Clock
15:59:26 <yahb2> <no output>
15:59:28 <ski> % take 5 [1..5] :: [NominalDiffTime]
15:59:28 <yahb2> [1s,1.000000000001s,1.000000000002s,1.000000000003s,1.000000000004s]
16:00:04 ski notes a bad `Show' instance
16:00:38 <EvanR> what the actual F though
16:00:56 <EvanR> NominalDiffTime is implemented as a Pico
16:01:03 <ski> % (read . show) (take 5 [1..5]) :: [NominalDiffTime]
16:01:03 <yahb2> *** Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
16:01:07 <EvanR> how did we get 1.0000000004
16:01:27 <EvanR> oooh
16:01:44 <EvanR> wait
16:01:47 <EvanR> wtf
16:02:23 <EvanR> % take 5 (enumFrom [2..]) :: [NominalDiffTime]
16:02:23 <yahb2> <interactive>:129:18: error: [GHC-83865] ; • Couldn't match expected type ‘NominalDiffTime’ ; with actual type ‘[a0]’ ; • In the first argument of ‘enumFrom’, namely ‘[2 ....
16:02:35 <EvanR> % take 5 (enumFrom 2) :: [NominalDiffTime]
16:02:35 <yahb2> [2s,2.000000000001s,2.000000000002s,2.000000000003s,2.000000000004s]
16:03:06 <EvanR> I was so used to the Enum instance of floats
16:04:10 <EvanR> floats and NominalDiffTime are like bargin bin real numbers so I dunno if Enum makes sense
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16:41:36 <justsomeguy> What is lifting in functional programming? I've read a few definitions, but it doesn't make sense to me right now.
16:42:07 <EvanR> there's a few things referred to as lifting
16:42:33 <EvanR> unrelated things
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16:43:47 <EvanR> any function of type A -> B can be lifted to a function on F a, where F is a Functor, using fmap
16:44:29 <mauke> lift0 :: a -> F a; lift1 :: (a -> b) -> (F a -> F b); lift2 :: (a -> b -> c) -> (F a -> F b -> F c)
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16:44:50 <EvanR> any monadic action m a can be lifted to an action in t m a where t is monad transformer, with lift
16:44:51 <ncf> it's a terrible word used all over the place by people trying to sound mathy
16:45:17 <EvanR> a lifted type is an type with an additional semantics bottom
16:45:36 <EvanR> like Int has a bottom while Int# doesn't
16:46:01 <mauke> isn't that a boxed type?
16:46:05 <monochrom> Yeah, disregard the "intuitive" word "lifting". Learn each of Functor's fmap, Applicative's liftA2, MonadTrans's lift on its own terms.
16:46:08 <EvanR> it's also boxed
16:47:03 <EvanR> Only Int where data Only a = MkOnly a is lifted a second time
16:47:11 <mauke> and here I thought lifting and boxing made you sound jocky, not nerdy
16:47:12 <monochrom> In general, learn everything on its own terms, disregard "meaningful" names.
16:47:17 <EvanR> lol
16:47:41 <monochrom> GHC does the heavy-lifting.
16:48:06 <monochrom> GHC does the heavy-lifting, but you have to think outside the box.
16:48:42 <EvanR> RealWorld is deeply magical. It is primitive, but it is not unlifted.
16:49:45 <monochrom> lifted types have bottoms, boxed types take heap space. For example array types are unlifted but boxed.
16:50:33 <monochrom> But that's about the only exception to the lifted-boxed correlation. :)
16:50:44 <mauke> magical realism
16:50:57 <EvanR> RealWorld is "not unlifted"
16:51:10 <EvanR> smh so british
16:51:39 <monochrom> Speaking of which, "heap" is another great example of having multiple unrelated meanings.
16:53:03 <mauke> why do we have stacks and heaps, but no piles?
16:53:29 <monochrom> After a while you ought to realize that there are fewer "intuition"s than there are mutually unrelated concepts. That should inform you how "helpful" "intuition"s are.
16:53:39 <EvanR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pile_(abstract_data_type)
16:54:01 <monochrom> https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/precise
16:54:40 <justsomeguy> I'll admit that the only part of your explanation I understood was the first bit (a -> b) -> (f a -> f b), which can work on multiple arities of functions.
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16:55:01 <justsomeguy> I haven't gotten to monad transformers yet, and don't really understand what an action is.
16:55:14 <EvanR> like, getChar :: IO Char
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16:55:17 <EvanR> it's an IO action
16:55:27 <mauke> ignore things that don't make sense yet
16:56:14 <monochrom> Sure. Learn what you're ready to or interested in. Just disbelieve meaningful names and essay "explanation"s.
16:56:23 <mauke> but I'll mention that Functor provides (a -> b) -> (f a -> f b), and Applicative provides all other arities
16:56:29 <mniip> I like how "hence ptrArg" refers to nothing anymore
16:57:07 <mauke> :t pure
16:57:08 <lambdabot> Applicative f => a -> f a
16:57:12 <mauke> :t liftA2
16:57:13 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> b -> c) -> f a -> f b -> f c
16:59:32 <EvanR> then hoist had the decency to use a different word for something unrelated
17:02:16 <mauke> :t hoist lift
17:02:17 <lambdabot> error:
17:02:17 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: hoist :: (m0 a0 -> t0 m0 a0) -> t
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17:03:36 <mauke> EvanR: that wp article sucks
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17:05:00 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> The intuition for lift is mostly "put this thing inside this other thing that's higher up", where "thing", "higher up", "inside" and "put" are context specific. Usually liftings are sort of "free", as in, they don't add more properties than the ones implied by the other context
17:05:42 <mauke> "put this thing inside this other thing" => embed
17:07:05 <justsomeguy> An unwrapper wrapper function?
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17:09:13 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> It can sometimes wrap functions but it isn't a wrapper function
17:09:35 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> mauke the "higher up" is what turns embed into lift I guess
17:11:52 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> For example, liftFree lifts a Functor "f" into a Monad "Free f"
17:13:23 <EvanR> mauke, ikr
17:14:47 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Usually "inverses" to lift, pure and embed are prefixed with run, un and lower, and folds and traversals with fold, traverse, elim, cata, mcata, for
17:15:29 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Maps are usually prefixed with map or on
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17:17:25 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Which word to use depends on the context. Stuff that represents wrappers tends to use wrap/embed and un, stuff that represents computations pure and run, categorical stuff lift and lower, etc
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18:05:05 <tri> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/kY0jmKNs
18:05:33 <tri> I would like to keep the type variable a instead of changing it to a concrete type like Int, which will be compilable
18:05:55 <tomsmeding> :t read
18:05:56 <lambdabot> Read a => String -> a
18:06:11 <tomsmeding> tri: mind that `Read a` constraint
18:06:11 <tri> I *understand* that keeping just at a will not compile, because read will not know what to parse to
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18:06:19 <tomsmeding> no, that's not the problem
18:06:29 <tomsmeding> `read` knows damn well what to parse to: it's `a`
18:06:34 <tomsmeding> it just doesn't know _how_
18:06:42 <tomsmeding> the `Read a` constraint contains information that tells it how
18:06:55 <tri> yea Tom, so I tried to use the type Num a => String -> IO a, in hope that read can parse to a Num
18:06:57 <tri> but it still fail
18:07:09 <tomsmeding> try Read a instead of Num a ;)
18:07:17 <tomsmeding> Num and Read are unrelated
18:07:38 <tri> ah ok let me read it a bit more to understand
18:07:40 <tri> thank you
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18:08:05 <tomsmeding> `Num` tells you how (+), (-), (*), negate, abas, signum and fromInteger are defined
18:08:23 <tomsmeding> there's also, of course, a bunch more functions that can work using just those few, and those work on any Num type too
18:08:40 <tomsmeding> `Read` tells you how `read` is defined, essentially
18:09:01 <tomsmeding> tri: in fact, at runtime, that `Read a` constraint on your function becomes an actual function _argument_
18:09:28 <tomsmeding> at runtime, it's a record with a few fields, one for each method in the type class
18:09:43 <tomsmeding> so if you have `myFoo :: Num a => a -> a -> a`, then myFoo takes _three_ arguments at runtime
18:10:07 <tomsmeding> and the first one of those contains 7 values: the definition of (+) for `a`, the definition of (-) for `a`, ..., the definition of `fromInteger` for `a`
18:10:19 <tomsmeding> `Read a` gives you the definition of `read` for `a`. :)
18:10:43 <tomsmeding> (Actually it gives you the definition of `readsPrec`, and `read` is implemented in terms of `readsPrec`. But that's mostly beside the point.)
18:10:53 <tri> thank you
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18:11:35 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Oh, this is a case where you learn more about a concepts when you understand how it is compiled
18:11:59 <tomsmeding> some people may disagree, but I think so
18:12:02 <tomsmeding> in this case
18:12:15 <tomsmeding> you can specify how type classes work just fine without talking about how they're compiled
18:12:51 <tomsmeding> but then it becomes an abstract, rather algebraic specification that only people who are already familiar with PL concepts will be able to work with
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18:18:22 <monochrom> I use algebra because everyone has acquired algebra skills.
18:18:47 <monochrom> from public mandatory education
18:20:03 <tomsmeding> I'm not talking about high-school algebra, I'm talking about abstract algebra that one learns either in an advanced FP / introductory PL course, or in a maths bachelor :p
18:20:24 <monochrom> Yeah I don't use that on other people. Don't worry!
18:20:57 <tomsmeding> if someone comes here with a question of what constraint to put on their function to make `read` work, I'm not going to assume they understand abstract algebra
18:21:15 <tomsmeding> if they had that kind of mental pathways already developed, they would have intuited the answer already ;)
18:23:52 <monochrom> This is how I teach classes and what the constraints are doing there: https://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-2024-Summer/04-haskell-types-2.html
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18:26:11 <monochrom> It does not use advanced math, but it does not use dictionaries either. For C++ compiler has already proved that there is another way.
18:27:06 <monochrom> (Meanwhile, people complain that GHC exes are already too big haha)
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18:31:08 <tomsmeding> monochrom: nice, I like
18:31:26 <tomsmeding> now I just have to remember where this lives when someone asks about type classes
18:32:08 <monochrom> It disappears soon. Namely, the "2024" part in the URL keeps changing, for obvious reasons.
18:32:42 <monochrom> Hrm I could easily make a "latest" alias!
18:32:48 <tomsmeding> 2023 is still up, it looks like
18:33:11 <monochrom> Ah I forgot to delete that haha
18:33:30 <monochrom> Usually in year N I keep both N and N-1.
18:33:58 <tomsmeding> given that not all directories are readable I assume you're aware that requesting /~trebla/ just gives a listing :)
18:34:24 <tomsmeding> but this will make it easier to find this stuff if I even remember to look for it, thanks
18:37:08 <monochrom> Yeah I am too lazy to make index.html so I just enable "just list everything"
18:37:48 <tomsmeding> when people do put an index.html in, they often forget to remove stuff from the directory that shouldn't be public any more in the first place
18:38:08 <tomsmeding> and then while they're kind of hidden then, they're still available if you know the URL
18:38:16 <monochrom> OK https://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-latest/ should be pretty reliable now!
18:38:27 <tomsmeding> sweet!
18:39:48 <monochrom> I wonder whether they forget or they simply have the wrong mental model.
18:40:07 <tomsmeding> probably first the latter, then later the former
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19:55:02 <EvanR> :t negate . read
19:55:04 <lambdabot> (Num c, Read c) => String -> c
19:55:36 <EvanR> parses into a Num insofar as that makes any sense
19:56:20 <EvanR> not sure what happened to 'a' and 'b' there xD
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20:16:49 <lunitur> Hi guys, I was thinking about making a GHC plugin for synthatic sugar that would make handling of monadic expressions easier, like !-notation or Monadic comprehensions in Idris. I would greatly appreciate if I could get some pointers.
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20:27:15 <EvanR> it's funny that in web world they want you to not do that and put individual side effecting code on its own line and store the result to a temporary
20:27:59 <EvanR> instead of making a more complex expression with multiple side effects
20:28:12 <EvanR> maybe they are just cargo culting haskell though
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20:34:33 <geekosaur> you might want to read https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/106opzn/ann_monadic_bang_a_plugin_for_more_concise/
20:35:19 <geekosaur> also I've seen a discussion somewhere pitching something similar and a number of responses asking about various corner cases that come up in Haskell
20:35:46 <geekosaur> (I thought there was a ghc proposal at one point but I can't find it)
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20:52:04 <talismanick> for `newtype RMonoid m = RMonoid (Monoid m => m -> m)`, is there a way to communicate the constraint when writing a Functor instance?
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20:55:15 <lunitur> thanks, i'm happy to see this exists but kinda bummed out because i really wanted to do some ghc related project
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21:01:15 <ncf> talismanick: what do you mean? that's not functorial in m
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21:03:49 <talismanick> wait, you're right
21:03:56 <talismanick> what was I thinking?
21:04:35 <ncf> i don't know!
21:04:43 <ncf> forall m. RMonoid m is isomorphic to ℕ though
21:05:02 <ncf> (unrelatedly)
21:05:45 <talismanick> oh right, I was trying to write down a general rule for difference list style optimizations
21:06:17 <talismanick> (I just came back to this code after months and saw a halfwritten Functor instance with a type error)
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21:07:13 <talismanick> maybe isomorphism to the naturals is part of what I was missing...
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21:20:34 <zaz> Hello! I'm interested in doing a deep dive over the coming months on bijective programming and in particular bijective parsing. I've skimmed a bunch of academic papers and am planning on learning more category theory, but what's the best way to get my hands dirty playing around with these ideas? Are there any bijective libraries out there that are
21:20:34 <zaz> relatively beginner-friendly?
21:20:35 <zaz> Also, why is bijectivity not built in?  For example, why is there no way to do `invert(span isLower)`?  It would seem like a really handy feature that if you compose a function out of a bunch of bijective functions that you could automatically invert it.
21:21:15 <tomsmeding> talismanick: the typical generalisation of difference lists is simply Endo
21:21:22 <tomsmeding> also known as Cayley transform
21:21:30 <tomsmeding> (when done to a monoid)
21:24:56 <tomsmeding> zaz: I can only reply to your last point (y no builtin), I'll leave the rest to others: there are very few expressions in practical code that are, in fact, bijective -- and if they are, then their subexpressions often are not. Indeed, `span` is not bijective, but `span isLower` suddenly is. `a * b` is not bijective, but `(a, a * b)` suddenly is. It would be a feature with rather significant (and
21:24:58 <tomsmeding> research-y!) implementation effort in GHC, with only very limited practical application
21:26:29 <ncf> span isLower is not bijective (it just has a left inverse)
21:27:28 <talismanick> tomsmeding: yes, what I had in mind was "automating" the Endo optimization
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21:27:45 <ncf> anyway if you're willing to ignore that and work with lenses you could have span :: (a → Bool) → Iso [a] ([a], [a])
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21:30:01 <talismanick> because you, the programmer, know `((([] ++ [a]) ++ [b]) ++ [c]) ++ [d]` is quadratic and `[a] ++ ([b] ++ ([c] ++ ([d] ++ [])))` is linear by inspection of `(++)`'s definition (traverse LHS to end, set its pointer to RHS's head)
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21:32:32 <talismanick> which seems like something that could be automated "by hypothesis" (symbolic substitution by expanding definitions) because associativity guarantees safe local rearrangement (no sudden nontermination, etc)
21:33:19 <talismanick> except there's arbitrary parenthetical lookahead, and iso to ℕ means it's additionally streamlike
21:33:47 <tomsmeding> talismanick: automatic in what way? A compiler optimisation or a compiler plugin? Or something else?
21:33:56 <talismanick> compiler optimization
21:34:06 <tomsmeding> GHC doesn't know that (++) is associative
21:34:58 <talismanick> is it not allowed to assume associativity when told `[a]` has a Semigroup instance?
21:35:25 <tomsmeding> no, typeclass laws are not actually laws in haskell, you're allowed (by the language semantics) to break them
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21:35:36 <tomsmeding> you're quite _expected_ not to
21:36:04 <talismanick> no fun allowed :(
21:36:28 <tomsmeding> usual caveat for built-in classes like WithDict that have GHC magic associated to them, where if you break the preconditions in the documentation you get nasal demons
21:36:55 <tomsmeding> or perhaps the new WithDict is safer than what was there before, I don't recall precisely
21:37:14 <talismanick> what if I /want/ -O3 to summon nasal demons? all those back and forths on C2 about a sufficiently smart compiler - I want to see what it can do lol
21:37:39 <tomsmeding> fork microHs? :p
21:37:45 <monochrom> Just hire a grad student.
21:37:46 <tomsmeding> or ghc if you dare
21:37:56 <tomsmeding> that costs money (usually)
21:38:04 <tomsmeding> not very much in some countries
21:38:16 <monochrom> Yeah but cheaper than industry :)
21:38:39 <monochrom> in some cases one slice of cheap pizza is all you need
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21:39:27 tomsmeding . o O ( -ffast-math )
21:39:34 <monochrom> :)
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21:45:19 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> talismanick look into the Cayley monoid
21:45:44 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> More generally, the Cayley theorem, but that's a categorical thing
21:49:10 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> You can just define "lit = (<>)", "render m = m mempty", note that functions that directly act on the monoid are also allowed, so on strings you can do "tail . lit "a" . lit "b"" to get "lit "b""
21:49:32 <tomsmeding> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_semigroup
21:49:49 <tomsmeding> that's what wikipedia calls it, apparently
21:50:33 <tomsmeding> (it even mentions difference lists)
21:51:35 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> I also like to define "litC = (:)" for strings. Note that "tail . litC x = id" (mempty on the Cayley monoids)
21:54:24 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> I call it the Cayley monoid (technically "Cayley monoid of a monoid M", or just "Cayley monoid of M") because of that one theorem
21:54:50 <talismanick> yes, I was thinking about how best to automate that process
21:55:27 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Just use the definitions above, doesn't require wrappers or anything like that
21:56:03 <tomsmeding> it's tricky, because rendering is not O(1), so if you render, you want to continue computation with the rendered value, not the composition you had before
21:56:38 <tomsmeding> i.e. if you `let x = lit "abc" . lit "def" . lit "ghi" in f (render x) (render x)` then you're doing work twice
21:56:55 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Yeah, tho I'd recommend not rendering unless absolutely necessary
21:57:06 <tomsmeding> right, but you're going to auto-transform, you'll have to render sometimes
21:57:26 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> You can modify the composition directly, as I've shown before
21:57:52 <tomsmeding> talismanick: also this is only beneficial for monoids where the wrong associativity is actually slow; doing Cayley to `Sum Int` will only make everything slow
21:58:20 <tomsmeding> Bowuigi: what if the original program passed the String to `putStrLn`? You'll have to render it at that point.
21:58:22 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Indeed, the same can be said for the other Cayley transformations
21:59:04 <tomsmeding> or what if the original program put the String in a `case`? Can't evaluate that `case` without rendering
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22:00:57 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> The case can be incorporated into the pipeline by just composing that function with the unrendered value in most cases. As for IO, that's what I mean by "absolutely necessary"
22:01:43 <tomsmeding> depends on what exactly is returned from the `case`, but yes, sometimes that works
22:01:50 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Obviously this means that rendering is no longer O(n) but it allows you to keep adding stuff to the monoid afterwards
22:03:00 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> And if the entire pipeline is exposed to GHC, it can do its magic, as usual
22:03:41 <tomsmeding> you also have to render whenever the original program _shares_ a monoid value: with `let x = ... ; f y = y ++ y in putStrLn (f x x)`, if you don't take care, you're going to compute x twice (whereas this program as written only computes x once)
22:04:19 <tomsmeding> anyway we're doing talismanick's grad student's research for them :)
22:04:50 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> True lol
22:05:14 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Gotta continue with my not-grad-student research then lol
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22:39:36 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Related, which syntax for visible and invisible foralls is preferred nowadays?
22:39:58 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> In general I mean, not just in Haskell
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22:46:00 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Currently I have "func : {a b : *} (f : * -> *) a -> f b = ...", where a and b are invisibly quantified (AKA their applications are inferred) and f is visibly quantified (AKA you must apply it as if it was a term), with "func @A @B F" as the application syntax
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22:48:02 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Sorry, "(x : k) -> t" is visible quantification, "{x : k} t" is invisible
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23:32:48 × robertm quits (robertm@lattice.rojoma.com) (Quit: WeeChat 3.8)
23:35:15 → robertm joins (robertm@lattice.rojoma.com)
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All times are in UTC on 2025-02-09.