Logs on 2025-02-11 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:16:54	<lyxia>	I somehow need existential newtypes in Haskell... are there any workarounds (or have they been implemented already)?
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00:21:51	<Leary>	lyxia: You can use a smart constructor that secretly `unsafeCoerce`s the hidden type to `Any`, then provide a Rank2 `withFoo` for unwrapping. See `Data.Some.Newtype` for an example in the wild.
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00:27:49	<Leary>	There's also a similar trick to give the constructor a constraint, so long as any runtime data can be computed from the argument: https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/ef0f75468938fa6ff505331171bb011c
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00:35:15	<lyxia>	Very cursed, thank you :)
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01:38:21	<lisbeths>	bash_macros(){ while read -r i; do eval "$( printf "%s" "$i" \| awk "$1" ; )" ; done ; } ;
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02:29:36	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> Where is lens' Fold composition defined?
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02:35:10	<c_wraith>	a Fold is still a function of shape `(a -> f b) -> s -> f t', so they compose with (.) like every other optic
02:35:46	<c_wraith>	The only thing special about a Fold is that they add a Contravariant constraint to f
02:36:49	<c_wraith>	which when combined with the Applicative constraint means that you can't use them with any choice of f that would actually contain a t
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02:58:16	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> ah right ok I see, ty!
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05:35:09	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> does anyone have examples of transformations that are particularly clearly expressed using profunctor optics?
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06:39:53	<dminuoso>	thirdofmay18081814goya: What do you mean by transformations?
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06:44:53	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> dminuoso: the applying of a lens and an action to a datatype
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06:45:17	<dminuoso>	They dont differ from van laarhoven or the mixed (van laarhoven + profunctor-style) in that sense.
06:45:25	<dminuoso>	Profunctors are an implementation detail here.
06:46:14	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> we'd expect composition to be easier when using a higher abstraction no?
06:46:29	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> thirdofmay18081814goya cleanly wrt VL lenses or in general?
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06:47:18	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> Bowuigi: in general
06:47:57	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> it's not a rigorous question tbh, I'm just looking for personal opinions of instructive usages of the profunctor encoding
06:49:21	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Ah, the nice part of the profunctor encoding is that you have access to the profunctor API. But since arrows are profunctors it doesn't make much of a difference wrt VL lenses
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06:51:06	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> But switching the underlying profunctor that you use in a combined VL/profunctor optic could help yeah
06:51:53	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Like, to get effectful lenses over Kleisli or something like that
06:52:26	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> hm I see
06:59:09	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> I had a "type Optic p f s t a b = p a (f b) -> p s (f t)" sitting around my projects
06:59:56	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Oddly enough the definition on profunctor-optics is "type Optic p s t a b = p a b -> p s t", which is equivalent
07:04:10	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Namely, "Optic1 p f s t a b = Optic2 (\x y -> p x (f y)) s t a b" and "Optic2 p s t a b = Optic1 p Identity s t a b"
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07:06:26	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> huh I haven't encountered a case where "f" is not the identity functor yet
07:06:30	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> what did you use it for?
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07:09:19	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> It's a bit nicer to write VL lenses with it. For example, the usual Lens (not generalizing over the profunctor) is just "forall f. Functor f => Optic (->) f s t a b"
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07:10:41	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Similar syntax can be achieved for the rest of the hierarchy using constraints, like how lens does it but with much less type aliases
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07:21:48	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> oh cool
07:22:26	<dminuoso>	One should say, that VL lenses themselves are an ancient construct that is not used by `lens` either.
07:22:38	<dminuoso>	Lens uses an encoding that is a mixture of VL and profunctor.
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07:23:28	<dminuoso>	thirdofmay18081814goya: The big advantage of the profunctor encoding is that the implementation becomes completely uniform, there's no weird encodings depending on the type of optic.
07:23:36	<dminuoso>	Like `lens` has.
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07:30:40	<energizer>	am i missing anything relevant? https://bpa.st/CF7A
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07:31:47	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> dminuoso: ah that's nice
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08:00:51	<ski>	energizer : occasionally `(<>>) :: f (a -> f b) -> f a -> f b' is useful (`frob <$> foo <> bar <> baz <>> quux')
08:02:07	<energizer>	ski: i don't see that on hoogle. is that a recognized thing?
08:02:21	<ski>	custom think i define, at times
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08:04:21	<ski>	imagine (with `Monad f') `frob :: a -> b -> c -> d -> f e', `foo :: f a', `bar :: f b', `baz :: f c', `quux :: f d', and then `frob <$> foo <> bar <> baz <*>> quux :: f e'
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08:05:07	<ski>	allows you to use the idiomatic/applicative combinators with an occasional monadic `join' effect
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08:06:51	<energizer>	interesting
08:06:54	<dminuoso>	thirdofmay18081814goya: For instance, consider type IndexedFold i s a = forall p f. (Indexable i p, Contravariant f, Applicative f) => p a (f a) -> s -> f s
08:07:02	<ski>	@hoogle (a -> f b) -> f (a -> b)
08:07:02	<lambdabot>	No results found
08:08:15	<ski>	energizer : because it can get annoying, cluttered, to have to write `join (frob <$> foo <> bar <> baz <*> quux)'
08:08:17	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> dminuoso: any chance you know of an example?
08:08:33	<dminuoso>	Just gave you one.
08:08:47	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> I meant a particular action on it
08:10:05	<ski>	(that `(a -> f b) -> f (a -> b)' would be kinda opposite of `(??) :: f (a -> b) -> a -> f b'. would only work for quite special `f's)
08:10:14	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> dminuoso: but yeah you're right, that is a simpler type than some of the other ones
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09:29:36	<mniip>	ski, nowadays I recognize it as more of a crutch for not having proper idiom brackets :P
09:31:47	<ski>	yea .. this got me thinking (again) on my ideas for something better than idiom brackets
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09:32:55	<ski>	(why i was thinking about `(a -> f b) -> f (a -> b)')
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09:35:58	<ski>	iirc, `forall a b. (a,f b) -> f (a,b)', alternatively `forall a b. f (a -> b) -> (a -> f b)', are sometimes known as "strength". i'm wondering whether there's a traditional name for `forall a b. (a -> f b) -> f (a -> b)', and what reasonable laws would be
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09:46:10	<mniip>	ski, have you seen what lean has in store?
09:46:45	<mniip>	do <- frob (<- foo) (<- bar) (<- baz) (<- quux)
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09:48:26	<ski>	hm, not that i recall atm
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09:55:41	<ski>	mhm, seems to be documented at <https://lean-lang.org/doc/reference/latest/Functors___-Monads-and--do--Notation/Syntax/#do-notation>
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10:04:28	<mauke>	:t \x -> fmap ($ x)
10:04:29	<lambdabot>	Functor f => a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
10:06:08	<ski>	yes
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10:14:37	<mauke>	hmm, flipping arrows but not products to sums
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11:24:53	<bwe>	I've multiple functions `(a, b) -> Maybe c`. How can I chain them, i. e. if first yields Nothing, second is performed on input etc., if none yields a `Just c`, then I manually define a return value.
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11:38:05	<ski>	> let foo n \| even n = Just (n `div` 2) \| otherwise = Nothing; bar 1 = Nothing; bar n = Just (3 * n + 1) in intercalate "," [(maybe "stop" show . getFirst) ((First . foo <> First . bar) n) \| n <- [1 .. 8] :: [Integer]] -- hrm ..
11:38:06	<lambdabot>	"stop,1,10,2,16,3,22,4"
11:38:46	<akegalj>	bwe: I would explicitly chain them (\input -> fun1 input <\|> fun2 input <\|> fun3 input <\|> Just 4) (a,b)
11:39:08	<ski>	> let foo n \| even n = Just (n `div` 2) \| otherwise = Nothing; bar 1 = Nothing; bar n = Just (3 * n + 1) in intercalate "," [maybe "stop" show (foo n <\|> bar n) \| n <- [1 .. 8] :: [Integer]] -- simpler
11:39:10	<lambdabot>	"stop,1,10,2,16,3,22,4"
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11:44:49	<haskellbridge>	<alexfmpe> bwe: fromMaybe defaultValue $ asum $ fmap ($ input) [fun1, fun2,...]
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12:22:42	<dminuoso>	thirdofmay18081814goya: Roughly, the way you "run" a lens does not differ too wildly between all three variants (VL, mixed and profunctor).
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12:27:38	<dminuoso>	thirdofmay18081814goya: The cute trick in profunctor representation that all optics are just profunctor transformer functions, so "using" them amounts to just applying them to a particular choice of a profunctor
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12:28:12	<dminuoso>	Similarly to how in VL representation you pick a particular functor to "use" it
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12:29:55	<dminuoso>	Compare `type LensP s t a b = forall p. Strong p => Optic p s t a b` with `type LensVL s t a b = forall f . Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t`
12:30:21	<dminuoso>	Where type Optic p s t a b = p a b -> p s t
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12:30:33	<dminuoso>	So `type LensP s t a b = forall p. Strong p => p a b -> p s t`
12:31:12	<dminuoso>	If we write `p` in an infix position with a nice operator instead, the similarity becomes more obvious:
12:32:40	<dminuoso>	type LensP s t a b = forall (:=>). Strong (:=>) => (a :=> b) -> s :=> t
12:32:46	<dminuoso>	type LensVL s t a b = forall f . Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
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12:34:21	<dminuoso>	So a simple way to run a LensP would be to just turn it into a LensVL by just picking :=> ~ UpStar
12:35:01	<dminuoso>	In this particular example, the profunctor representation is just vastly more generalized.
12:37:25	<bwe>	alexfmpe, akegalj, ski: thanks, I've gone for alexfmpe's approach, solves my requirement.
12:37:57	<dminuoso>	`viewL l = runConst . l Const` and `viewP l = getConst . (l (UpStar Const))`
12:38:10	<dminuoso>	Oh
12:38:21	<dminuoso>	`viewP l = getConst . runUpStar (l (UpStar Const))` of course.
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14:17:49	<kaol>	Is there something more powerful than :r in ghci to recompile a different library in the same cabal file as well? Something I could use instead of restarting ghci itself.
14:21:54	<dminuoso>	kaol: Given that the whole business of how libraries end up in GHC is usually managed by cabal-install...
14:22:24	<dminuoso>	I suppose you could use `ghcid` with a bit of massage
14:22:35	<dminuoso>	It really depends on how you intend to detect "different library"
14:22:47	<dminuoso>	Or what you want to use GHCi for
14:26:35	<kaol>	I really don't care about ghcid.
14:26:59	<kaol>	I'm running my tests in a repl and the library part of my code has a bug.
14:27:52	<kaol>	And apparently this is some barrier that requires either copying the module to my test directory or restarting ghci all the time.
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14:29:39	<kaol>	I'm calling my test's main in repl.
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14:31:43	<kaol>	different library as in my cabal file having two stanzas, one for library and another for test-suite.
14:33:47	<kaol>	I guess I can do with just removing the library dependency from the test, copying over any missing build-depends and adding both directories to hs-source-dirs.
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14:41:23	<kaol>	Not a fan of these ergonomics.
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15:06:10	<haskellbridge>	<sm> kaol: I didn't follow that exactly but it sounds like something stack build --fast --file-watch is good for
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15:25:15	<tomsmeding>	kaol: I'm fairly sure ghci can only have one component loaded at a time; the others will be used as compiled dependencies. It can only reload the loaded component, so what you want is impossible, currently, I think
15:26:15	<tomsmeding>	if you can put your tests in a haskell file instead of running them manually in a repl, then making that an executable/test-suite component of your package allows you to simply use `cabal run` to run the tests, which does have better ergonomics (but perhaps longer roundtrip times)
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15:36:12	<haskellbridge>	<sm> oh.. I have a ghci script that uses various ghc options like -i to load from multiple packages into ghci as if they were in one package, for better reloading
15:38:22	<haskellbridge>	<sm> https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/blob/fbbe897133fabbef337f30cd746386a90545f45d/Justfile#L353
15:38:22	<haskellbridge>	... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/wEXSVISAROaeFNEYxArasFqE/RCSq550tWp4 (4 lines)
15:39:41	<haskellbridge>	<sm> just add the source paths with -i, it seems like
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15:48:52	<euouae>	dminuoso: okay, I reflected a bit on the Vec3 exercise. The <$> f-wraps the constructor, and the <*> applies f-values one by one until it is reduced to an f-value.
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16:00:57	<dminuoso>	euouae: Perfect. Now off to the final variantÖ
16:01:25	<dminuoso>	Now write a `traverseVec3X` that does the same thing, except it only applies its action to the X component of Vec3. Write variants for Y and Z too.
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16:22:22	<euouae>	something like: traverseVecX f (Vec3 x y z) = Vec3 <$> f x <> pure y <> pure z
16:22:31	<euouae>	although now I have to have :: Applicative f => (a -> f a) -> Vec3 a -> f (Vec3 a)
16:22:37	<euouae>	i.e. I can't hve it a -> f b anymore.
16:22:58	<euouae>	well, what seems to me like is that we have composable setters now
16:24:49	<haskellbridge>	<alexfmpe> kaol: cabal repl all --enable-multi-repl
16:24:59	<haskellbridge>	<alexfmpe> Need cabal 3.12
16:25:23	<haskellbridge>	<alexfmpe> Still a bit rough around the edges but mostly works
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16:32:53	<tomsmeding>	:def is unsupported in multi-mode, lol
16:33:18	<tomsmeding>	nor is :m or :set
16:33:42	<euouae>	does haskell have a good sql (or otherwise) database
16:33:44	<euouae>	library
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16:34:20	<euouae>	I was using SQLAlchemy on Python and it works nicely, I was able to declaratively put together all the tables of the schema
16:34:26	<euouae>	including their relationships
16:34:56	<EvanR>	I've used sqlite-simple and postgres-simple
16:35:04	<EvanR>	keeping it simple
16:36:24	<euouae>	how about db migrations? by hand?
16:36:27	<kaol>	hasql is my default choice. Anything that tries to model anything by duplicating table definitions in the source is sure to raise my blood pressure.
16:36:57	<euouae>	kaol: ORM in general or just that aspect?
16:37:50	<euouae>	I do use PostgreSQL so it's nice that hasql uses it too
16:38:22	<kuribas>	euouae: shameless plug, my sql generator library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasqlator-mysql-0.2.1
16:38:34	<kuribas>	no PostgreSQL yet though...
16:38:51	<kaol>	I think much better by writing and thinking in SQL than trying to play ship bottle building game with some other abstraction.
16:39:28	<kuribas>	my library tries to be as close as possible to SQL, but remaining composable and type safe.
16:39:32	<kaol>	Queries as profunctors is as natural as I've ever seen anything to be.
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16:39:47	<kuribas>	opaleye?
16:40:44	<kaol>	If I'd have a use case for constructing queries dynamically routinely I might consider some other library.
16:41:00	<kaol>	Composable is kind of no op if you write the query only once.
16:41:24	<kuribas>	Yeah, my library is meant for when you want to compose dynamic queries. If you just need a static query, then *-simple is the easiest way.
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16:41:40	<kaol>	Or type safety. It doesn't even solve the whole problem unless you access the DB schema to check it against it too.
16:42:02	<tomsmeding>	(please don't make me run a database to compile your code)
16:42:03	<kaol>	Or duplicate the schema.
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16:42:37	<kaol>	My dream is something I can just give pg_dump -s and it'd use it for everything.
16:42:46	<kuribas>	kaol: you cannot check against the schema without including it as types...
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16:43:00	<euouae>	kaol: so from your perspective the best benefit is to learn postgresql/sql as best as one can
16:43:05	<kaol>	Feed the schema dump to TH to get types.
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16:43:39	<kuribas>	kaol: in my library you export the schema to a haskell type, then feed it to TH to get your types.
16:43:54	<kuribas>	well, export to a haskell value.
16:44:08	<kuribas>	kaol: this way you don't need access to a DB to compile the code.
16:44:12	<kaol>	Schema? As in from pg_dump output or some other representation?
16:44:30	<kuribas>	kaol: It reads the information schema of the given database.
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16:49:01	<kuribas>	You fetch the table info from the connection: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasqlator-mysql-0.2.1/docs/Database-MySQL-Hasqlator-Typed-Schema.html#v:fetchTableInfo
16:49:27	<kuribas>	Then pretty print it into some module: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasqlator-mysql-0.2.1/docs/Database-MySQL-Hasqlator-Typed-Schema.html#v:pprTableInfo
16:52:39	<kuribas>	Or if you like, you can put this in a script or a CI/CD pipeline.
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16:52:57	<kuribas>	regen_schemas.sh or something.
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18:12:37	<justsomeguy>	Can someone help me understand what Traversable is all about?
18:14:37	<ncf>	justsomeguy: did you see https://wiki.haskell.org/Typeclassopedia#Traversable ?
18:15:12	<ncf>	or https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Traversable
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18:18:05	<EvanR>	a generalization of mapM
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18:21:46	<monochrom>	If it helps: traverse is impure fmap.
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18:23:32	<justsomeguy>	At this point the examples make sense, but I'm not sure how they evaluate.
18:23:46	<justsomeguy>	Maybe I just have to write it out on paper.
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18:26:32	<monochrom>	If I'm allowed to illustrate sequence instead: sequence [foo, goo, hoo] = liftA2 (:) foo (liftA2 (:) goo (liftA2 (:) hoo (pure [])))))
18:26:52	<monochrom>	It may be useful motivate why one would want it.
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18:27:34	<monochrom>	Remember how you can DIY liftA10, liftA11, liftA12 etc by pure and a lot of liftA2?
18:29:13	<haskellbridge>	<alexfmpe> Yeah, I'd say sequence is basically folding with applicative, but with a fold function that preserves the original structure.
18:29:15	<haskellbridge>	Traverse is fmap followed by sequence, so it's kind of foldMap with applicative
18:29:22	<monochrom>	You can then go ambitious and say "but liftA10 is always 10. can I make it variable length?". Answer: sequence accepts an arbitary list so it's variable length. (The compromise is that we only have homogeneous lists, so the input list has to be homogeneous, whereas liftA10 is OK with 10 different types.)
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18:29:32	<haskellbridge>	<alexfmpe> * suitable combining
18:29:41	<monochrom>	If you accept sequence, then traverse is just sequence and fmap.
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18:30:35	<EvanR>	:t sequence
18:30:36	<lambdabot>	(Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a)
18:30:41	<EvanR>	:t sequenceA
18:30:42	<lambdabot>	(Traversable t, Applicative f) => t (f a) -> f (t a)
18:30:52	<haskellbridge>	<alexfmpe> * only works when there's
18:30:53	<monochrom>	OK yeah sequenceA.
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18:31:44	<EvanR>	the next in the pattern would be something of the form (Traversable t, Functor f) => t (f a) -> f (t a)
18:32:13	<EvanR>	haskell hasn't figured this one out yet
18:32:33	<monochrom>	Application: Suppose you want a procedure foo such that foo n reads n lines from stdin and return the list of those n lines. Then it is: sequenceA (replicate n getLine)
18:32:37	<tomsmeding>	I'm not sure if a "pattern" is the right way to look at those :P
18:32:41	<EvanR>	lol
18:33:01	<monochrom>	perhaps s/pattern/generalization/
18:33:34	<monochrom>	But I think weakening to functor is impossible.
18:33:41	<euouae>	what's a profunctor?
18:34:03	<EvanR>	do you know what a contravariant functor is
18:34:18	<euouae>	yes
18:34:59	<EvanR>	profunctor class is for types which are functor in one parameter and contravariant functor in the other
18:35:42	<euouae>	oh I see. hm.. I'll keep it in mind when I encounter it
18:35:58	<ncf>	(->) is the canonical example
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18:37:09	<monochrom>	lambda the ultimate goto. (->) the ultimate instance.
18:37:30	<EvanR>	(A -> a, A <- b)
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18:46:45	<euouae>	Thanks
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19:17:29	<euouae>	When I see something like `base:Data.Semigroup.Internal.Endo [a]` in the output of an exported type with `:t`, what exactly does it mean?
19:18:01	<EvanR>	Endo [a]
19:18:06	<euouae>	I know it's some constriction of some kind placed on [a], but it seems private/implementation?
19:18:09	<euouae>	Is it just using GHC features?
19:18:10	<EvanR>	just more specific
19:18:36	<euouae>	Oh I'm not worried about what this specific type means, just why would it be .Internal exposed to the user of the API
19:18:38	<EvanR>	Endo a is a newtype to add Monoid support for a -> a
19:18:46	<int-e>	you get it from importing Data.Semigroup or Data.Monoid
19:19:09	<EvanR>	modules can reexport stuff defined in an internal module
19:19:31	<euouae>	But isn't it finnicky to re export internal stuff? You're tied to something that can blow up at any time
19:19:42	<EvanR>	and you never would have known about it if it wasn't for that pesky verbose output and their dog!
19:20:00	<euouae>	lol
19:20:07	<mauke>	euouae: ?? it's your own implementation details
19:20:09	<EvanR>	well whatever is exported is by definition the public API
19:20:11	<EvanR>	wherever it came from
19:20:20	<mauke>	you're allowed to depend on yourself
19:20:43	<int-e>	Endo [a] is usually used as a difference list, to avoid a quadratic slowdown when concatenating many lists
19:20:55	<euouae>	Yeah this is a fold
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19:21:06	<euouae>	I guess that's the optimization
19:21:40	<euouae>	It's just that... I guess what I'm asking is, if you're a library writer (like lens here) and you dig into GHC internal modules, are you committing a sin? Perhaps GHC documentation says this is okay?
19:22:16	<euouae>	I understand that there are be optimizations in lens that are GHC specific, but I hadn't seen anything before, maybe this is my first exposure
19:22:45	<int-e>	GHC is the dominant implementation anyway.
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19:22:53	<mauke>	wait, are you saying lens is using ghc internal modules?
19:23:07	<int-e>	I'd be surprised if it didn't
19:23:26	<mauke>	because https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.21.0.0/docs/Data-Monoid.html#t:Endo is public
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19:23:49	<int-e>	But yeah I think those two questions are not connected.
19:23:55	<mauke>	it's just originally defined in GHC.Internal.Data.Semigroup.Internal
19:24:09	<mauke>	but Data.Monoid re-exports it
19:24:31	<int-e>	(It's slightly unfortunate that ghci doesn't tell you where to import Endo from but that information is hard to track.)
19:24:46	<euouae>	Oh, I see...
19:24:55	<euouae>	mauke, I didn't realize it was a public type!
19:25:05	<euouae>	I just went with what :t told me
19:25:14	<int-e>	euouae: note how my first answer was two modules that you can import it from, maybe you missed it
19:25:46	<euouae>	Yeah but you said Endo a, and I thought maybe my type was different
19:25:58	<euouae>	I thought Endo might've been public but that base:...Internal thing might've been an optimization
19:26:07	<int-e>	No, it was just the unqualified version of the same thing
19:26:32	<euouae>	right, makes sense
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19:36:20	<euouae>	is there a good way to look up documentation somehow? maybe from the repl or emacs? I end up searching with control+f on hackage pages
19:36:34	<euouae>	e.g. I want to look up `each` from the lens library
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19:37:10	<euouae>	hm -- trying :doc gives me `try recompiling with --haddock`, maybe I need to enable it in the cabal file
19:37:19	<exarkun>	if you have lsp you can get some
19:37:40	<exarkun>	C-c l h h
19:37:59	<euouae>	hmm yeah but first I have to write a valid expression using the identifier
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19:38:10	<mauke>	euouae: on many hackage pages you can hit 's' for an interactive search
19:38:12	<euouae>	I can't e.g. do it on `each` if it sits by itself in a random line
19:38:25	<euouae>	ah, `s` is nice
19:38:31	<exarkun>	if lsp has managed to parse the buffer including it, you can
19:38:45	<exarkun>	(+/- some random hls quirks)
19:38:56	<euouae>	Yeah exactly, I need to have valid code before I can even look up the symbol :P exarkun
19:39:23	<exarkun>	not valid code, just parseable
19:39:43	<euouae>	what is the big difference?
19:40:04	<exarkun>	each on a line by itself is likely quite parsable, even if it is a type error
19:40:30	<euouae>	it's not working
19:40:45	<euouae>	What does work is `_ = const 1 each`
19:41:01	<exarkun>	is your line in a `where` block? or a `let`?
19:41:09	<euouae>	no top-level
19:41:13	<euouae>	LSP: no content at point is what I get
19:41:15	<exarkun>	oh, ok. sure, or that.
19:41:23	<exarkun>	in all those cases, it's a syntax error not to have an =
19:41:25	<euouae>	anyway the docs of `each` are empty too lol... heh. maybe I need the -haddock thing
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20:01:36	<ash3en>	what is Fortan like, from the Haskell perspective?
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20:06:33	<justsomeguy>	How does this evaluate: (fmap . fmap) sum Just [1,2,3]? Why does (fmap . fmap) sum Just [1,2,3] == (fmap sum) (Just [1,2,3])?
20:07:09	<mauke>	(fmap . fmap) sum = fmap (fmap sum)
20:07:21	<Rembane>	\o/ Functor laws \o/
20:07:52	<mauke>	fmap f Just = f . Just
20:07:58	<mauke>	because of the naked reader instance
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20:08:27	<justsomeguy>	Wait wait wait...
20:08:32	<mauke>	(fmap sum . Just) [1,2,3] = fmap sum (Just [1,2,3])
20:09:08	<mauke>	the 1st/3rd things I said are just the definition of (.)
20:09:13	<mauke>	the middle thing is where it gets funky
20:10:18	<mauke>	> fmap fmap fmap sum Just [1,2,3]
20:10:19	<lambdabot>	Just 6
20:10:23	<justsomeguy>	How does fmap f Just = f . Just?
20:10:28	<mauke>	because fmap = (.)
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20:10:52	<mauke>	instance Functor ((->) e) where fmap = (.)
20:12:52	<mauke>	:t fmap
20:12:53	<lambdabot>	Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
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20:14:01	<mauke>	let f = ((->) e) in (a -> b) -> f a -> f b ==> (a -> b) -> (->) e a -> (->) e b
20:14:23	<mauke>	= (a -> b) -> (e -> a) -> (e -> b)
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20:19:17	<justsomeguy>	Honestly, I wish I could say that I understood your thoughtful explanation, but I'm so confused.
20:19:50	<mauke>	it wasn't very thoughtful :-)
20:19:54	<monochrom>	Write your own Functor instance for (->)e, and discover that its fmap is exactly (.)
20:19:56	<mauke>	what's the first thing that makes no sense?
20:20:07	<mauke>	for example, do you know what (->) e means as a type?
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20:21:12	<justsomeguy>	I'm not sure. Isn't (->) the type of a function, and e is the type of its first argument?
20:21:21	<monochrom>	All true.
20:21:29	<mauke>	yes
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20:21:47	<monochrom>	Precisely why all of the above is correct.
20:21:49	<mauke>	a -> b = (->) a b = ((->) a) b
20:21:58	<justsomeguy>	(By the way, I'm on 7% batter right now.)
20:22:03	<monochrom>	BTW [a] = [] a
20:22:04	<mauke>	perhaps non-obvious: you can curry type applications
20:22:58	<mauke>	which is why you can partially apply a type constructor like (->) and make a Functor instance for it
20:24:00	<mauke>	if you're familiar with the Reader monad, (->) is the same thing
20:24:08	<mauke>	(or rather, Reader is a newtype wrapper around (->))
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20:26:17	<justsomeguy>	My battery is about to die! I'm going to experiment with this more.
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20:26:50	<Digit>	20 years since i first got interested in Haskell. i should probably learn how to use it. is there a "learn Haskell while you sleep"? or anything that can be repurposed for such. ... do you think that's even possible? can Haskell be learned in our sleep?
20:27:44	<mauke>	doubt it
20:28:28	<EvanR>	maybe subliminal messaging to convince yourself you know haskell
20:28:37	<EvanR>	maybe that's enough
20:29:24	<Digit>	ooh, now you're onto something. could hypnotise myself in my sleep to stop being so lazy and self sabotaging around my Haskell aspirations.
20:31:42	<monochrom>	Can you learn anything at all while you sleep?
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20:32:11	<EvanR>	what counts as learning
20:32:29	<EvanR>	is it a mutation in the physical structure of the brain
20:32:41	<EvanR>	then yes
20:33:05	<monochrom>	Then does brain surgery count as learning, too? >:)
20:33:24	<EvanR>	or unlearning
20:33:43	<EvanR>	which is handy if you already learned C++ before trying to learn haskell
20:34:09	<monochrom>	Learning is Unlearning. Ignorance is Strength. Great. >:)
20:34:32	<mauke>	knowledge is costrength
20:35:46	<haskellbridge>	<sm> @Digit: skim #haskell IRC/matrix chats in idle moments, it’s not exactly sleeping but you can pick up a lot over time
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20:36:10	<haskellbridge>	<sm> play haskell videos in the background...
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20:37:19	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> EvanR Sleeping already mutates the physical structure of your brain, that's why we sleep
20:38:29	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Learning stuff while sleeping is likely possible, but so hard it's not worth it
20:38:47	<EvanR>	that's what I was getting at
20:38:55	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> You would need to dream about this new topic AND remember your dream later
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20:40:31	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> AFAIU we have many dreams per night, but we usually don't remember all of them. Even if we do, they kinda blend into a single story, yet another explanation why dreams can be so weird
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20:41:31	<mauke>	do dreams live in volatile ram?
20:42:22	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> They are kinda just streamed once and gone forever
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20:44:16	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> But technically, if you had control over most of your dreams you can learn new stuff. Specially since pattern matching becomes easier. Sounds useful for CT
20:46:01	<ski>	i've heard some engineers have been able to generate a "real life" model of a design, in front of them, in a lucid dream, being able to move around and view from different angles, adjust and modify things to see how it seems to work out
20:46:25	<mauke>	nah, I've tried to read things in dreams (text, diagrams, etc)
20:46:28	<mauke>	it doesn't go well
20:46:31	<EvanR>	memory palace
20:46:59	<ski>	(i've also had dreams pondering programming or math problems. but those (for me) tend to be more abstract, not like you're in a 3D environment at all)
20:47:15	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Also, how we remember a dream changes as time passes. If our brain inserts a generic human somewhere, after waking up it will try to coerce that NPC into someone we know, modifying our memories destructively
20:47:22	<ski>	yep, mauke. ditto with mirrors, as well
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20:47:41	<geekosaur>	when I was having lucid dreams due to a prescription I was on, I found that from a distance I could understand what something "said" as a concept, but looking at the individual characters they were essentially random
20:47:52	<ski>	(dreaming about chatting IRC is also weird ..)
20:48:55	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Haven't had the text issue tbh
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20:49:16	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> When my dreams have text (not often at all) it's always readable
20:49:36	<ski>	people use that issue with text, and also e.g. watches, as a "reality check", to make it more likely they get a lucid dream
20:49:39	<EvanR>	readable but not necessarily legible xD
20:50:28	<ski>	(if you get into a habit of doing such checks, you often tend to extend that habit into your dreams. and then you can notice the discrepancy, and realize you're dreaming, and so become lucid)
20:51:38	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Lucid dreaming is pretty cool but doesn't it use extra resources or something? I would like to use my sleeping time to sleep (tho it can be useful)
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20:52:21	<geekosaur>	yes, ime it means your conscious mind isn't fully resting
20:52:34	<geekosaur>	frontaltemporal stuff is being "awake"-active
20:53:33	<ski>	i wonder how much difference there is, wrt ordinary REM sleep
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21:49:29	haskellbridge	sm . o O peak #haskell there
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22:26:39	<dminuoso>	euouae: Have you implemented traverseVec3Y and Z variants too?
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22:28:01	<dminuoso>	euouae: Also note, you can weaken the constraint to Functor. Try rewriting it to not use `pure`.
22:28:13	<dminuoso>	You can either play type tetris or employ the Applicative/Functor laws.
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22:36:00	<euouae>	dminuoso: for X I used `traverseVecX f (Vec3 x y z) = Vec3 <$> f x <> pure y <> pure z` with the obvious modification for Y and Z
22:38:22	<euouae>	to do without the pure's I think I'd use something like (\x -> Vec3 x y z) <$> f x
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22:42:11	<euouae>	lens are a lot of fun
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23:01:30	<dminuoso>	euouae: That looks good.
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23:01:51	<dminuoso>	euouae: So what you have conjured, is a `Lens (Vec3 a) a`
23:02:12	<dminuoso>	That is, that thing that "traverses over a single component using some functor", that is the lens.
23:03:16	<euouae>	I see the setter, but not the getter
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23:03:23	<dminuoso>	How do you `set` with that?
23:03:38	<dminuoso>	Curious whether you can find out yourself
23:03:42	<euouae>	traverseVecX (const v) vec
23:03:57	<dminuoso>	Interesting. You are close, but that wont work.
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23:04:28	<dminuoso>	You need to find a choice of `f` here.
23:04:59	<euouae>	Identity
23:05:30	<dminuoso>	Give it a try.
23:05:38	<dminuoso>	Have you peeked into the lens implementation before?
23:06:20	<euouae>	Not really I'm just reading the lens book
23:06:27	<euouae>	So far it's "how to use this" type of thing
23:06:33	<dminuoso>	Fair enough.
23:06:51	<dminuoso>	So there are two newtypes that seem rather useless or silly in isolation:
23:06:58	<dminuoso>	newtype Const a b = Const { getConst :: a }
23:07:12	<dminuoso>	newtype Const a b = Const { getConst :: a }
23:07:15	<dminuoso>	newtype Identity a = Identity { runIdentity :: a }
23:07:56	<dminuoso>	And both happen to be Functor. And it turns out that if you traverseVecX using those functors, it gives you the exact behavior of either extracting the thing it traverses over, or setting the value in place.
23:09:05	<euouae>	I made this work `traverseVecX (const 30) x :: Identity (Vec3 Int)`
23:09:27	<euouae>	oh? let me re-read what you said
23:09:59	<dminuoso>	euouae: Yeah, that way to "set" with Identity is correct.
23:10:10	<dminuoso>	euouae: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.3.3/docs/src/Control.Lens.Setter.html#set
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23:11:01	<dminuoso>	Note that your lens is a simple: Lens' (Vec3 a) a
23:11:08	<euouae>	so you're using `traverseVecX getConst vec`?
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23:12:05	<euouae>	no, hm...
23:12:35	<dminuoso>	You just `traverseVec3 Const`, that's it!
23:12:46	<dminuoso>	(Well and getConst to unwrap it)
23:13:32	<dminuoso>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/microlens-0.4.13.1/docs/src/Lens.Micro.Extras.html#view (the lens implementation has a small layer of indirection with `asks`, so this one is a bit easier to look at
23:13:46	<dminuoso>	euouae: And here comes the next cool part:
23:13:51	<dminuoso>	% :t traverse . traverse
23:13:51	<yahb2>	traverse . traverse ; :: (Applicative f, Traversable t1, Traversable t2) => ; (a -> f b) -> t1 (t2 a) -> f (t1 (t2 b))
23:13:54	<dminuoso>	% :t traverse . traverse . traverse)
23:13:55	<yahb2>	<interactive>:1:31: error: [GHC-58481] parse error on input ‘)’
23:13:56	<dminuoso>	% :t traverse . traverse . traverse
23:13:56	<yahb2>	traverse . traverse . traverse ; :: (Applicative f, Traversable t1, Traversable t2, ; Traversable t3) => ; (a -> f b) -> t1 (t2 (t3 a)) -> f (t1 (t2 (t3 b)))
23:14:10	<dminuoso>	Note how you can just compose these traverse-like functions to traverse over nested structures.
23:14:19	<euouae>	I'm not able to get an answer with getConst (traverseVecX Const (Vec3 1 2 3))
23:14:28	<euouae>	Maybe because there's no Show?
23:14:35	<dminuoso>	What error do you get?
23:14:45	<euouae>	I just get `getConst (traverseVecX Const x) :: (Monoid a, Num a) => a` as a type
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23:14:58	<euouae>	I think it evaluates, I just don't know what it is, it's the repl on haskell-mode in emasc
23:15:02	<dminuoso>	euouae: Check your type.
23:15:10	<dminuoso>	Did you relax the constraint to Functor?
23:15:17	<euouae>	No its still Applicative
23:15:21	<dminuoso>	Thats why.
23:15:24	<euouae>	Oh, heh
23:15:30	<dminuoso>	We can use this to figure out what just happened next.
23:15:35	<dminuoso>	So
23:15:57	<dminuoso>	Consider your original traverseVec3 that traversed over all components, but needed Applicative
23:16:14	<dminuoso>	Use your Const, but instead of using Numbers maybe put strings into your Vec.
23:16:16	<dminuoso>	Give it a try.
23:17:31	<dminuoso>	And similiarly, try using Identity with that too.
23:17:43	<mauke>	"stringsareanicemonoid"
23:18:12	<dminuoso>	yada-yada-free-monoid
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23:21:56	<euouae>	I'm going to definitely refactor with just Functor and investigate how Const works, thank you
23:22:04	<euouae>	I'll do this tomorrow because there's stuff now to do
23:22:25	<euouae>	One thing that trips me up in Haskell is that I don't know if I'm dealing with a class or data whenever I see "Foo"... is this normal?
23:22:37	<dminuoso>	You can know.
23:22:58	<euouae>	Well if it is in the left of => it's a class?
23:23:09	<dminuoso>	A typeclass constraint can only appear in special places, normally not even in type position but only special constraint places.
23:23:31	<euouae>	right... just talking about "Const a b" though, you wouldn't know, you'd have to look into it
23:23:32	<dminuoso>	In places where values can appear, any identifier starting with an uppercase letter is a constructor of sorts.
23:24:02	<dminuoso>	euouae: well I did not mention `Const a b` in isolation.
23:24:06	<euouae>	I guess I need to be more conscious about it
23:24:11	<dminuoso>	newtype Const a b = Const { getConst :: a }
23:24:21	<dminuoso>	Or, with GADTSyntax (which I prefer):
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23:25:15	<dminuoso>	% newtype Const a b where Const :: a -> Const a b
23:25:15	<yahb2>	<no output>
23:25:36	ski	'd really prefer various data types to not reuse the exact same name for the data constructor
23:25:50	<dminuoso>	euouae: One of the larger sources of confusion for beginners of haskell is the compact dense notation of data, where value-level constructor and types appear to be sitting right next to each other
23:26:23	<dminuoso>	ski: Have you worked with languages that have a shared namespace for types and value level constructs?
23:26:39	<ski>	dependently typed
23:26:42	<dminuoso>	Oh well, I guess in dependent types this would be natural
23:26:44	<dminuoso>	Yeah.
23:27:54	<ski>	but yea. having seen BNF before, the way `data' declarations work becomes a bit less unfamiliar
23:27:56	<mauke>	euouae: right, and with things like constraint types, it's completely ambiguous
23:28:27	<mauke>	type Wtf a = (Show a, Num a) -- what even is that
23:28:53	<dminuoso>	Wait until I hand you a `Dict Show`
23:29:02	<mauke>	that's illegal
23:29:07	<dminuoso>	Oh its not.
23:29:20	<ski>	`Dict (Show T)'
23:29:41	<dminuoso>	Oh I was a bit too quick with that assessment indeed.
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23:30:33	<mauke>	newtype Identity runIdentity where Identity::a -> Identity a
23:30:55	<ski>	heh
23:30:58	<euouae>	mauke: I guess it's a restriction on what a can be? is that an extension?
23:31:02	<jackdk>	I had some code a while back that went hard on the stuff from package `constraints` to wrangle various `KnownNat` constraints. And then I fixed my design error and it all went away. But it was fun while it lasted.
23:31:23	<dminuoso>	euouae: `type ..` introduces just a type alias.
23:31:39	<dminuoso>	However...
23:32:15	<mauke>	euouae: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/constraint_kind.html
23:32:37	<dminuoso>	I think they were referring to `type Wtf ...`
23:32:43	<dminuoso>	% type Wtf a = (Show a, Num a)b
23:32:43	<yahb2>	<interactive>:183:29: error: [GHC-76037] ; Not in scope: type variable ‘b’
23:32:45	<dminuoso>	% type Wtf a = (Show a, Num a)
23:32:45	<yahb2>	<no output>
23:33:31	<dminuoso>	% f :: Wtf a => a -> a; f = id
23:33:31	<yahb2>	<no output>
23:34:09	<ski>	% let foo :: Wtf a => a -> String; foo n = show (show (n + 1)) in foo 42
23:34:10	<yahb2>	"\"43\""
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23:34:27	<euouae>	oh it's a type constraint synonym that page says
23:34:44	<euouae>	so an intersection of Show and Num
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23:35:08	<ski>	it's a compound constraint, consisting of two part constraints
23:35:12	<dminuoso>	euouae: This can be useful for situations where you may have a bunch of constraints that you want to repeatedly mention in type signatures.
23:35:19	<euouae>	right
23:35:25	<dminuoso>	Especially in effect systems like effectful.
23:35:42	<ski>	basically, "constraints live at the same level as types"
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23:37:21	<mauke>	newtype Identity runIdentity where Identity :: { runIdentity :: a } -> Identity a
23:37:35	<mauke>	had to look up GADT record syntax
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23:38:48	<dminuoso>	% data Dict :: Constraint -> Type where Dict :: a => Dict a
23:38:48	<yahb2>	<no output>
23:38:55	<dminuoso>	% d = Dict :: Dict (Show Int)
23:38:55	<yahb2>	<no output>
23:39:12	<dminuoso>	Some portion of these constraints can exist at the value level too!
23:39:42	<dminuoso>	Not quite the constraints, but dictionaries of them.
23:40:08	<dminuoso>	And we can use them to discharge constraints at will, no longer are we at the whim of the compiler.
23:40:16	<dminuoso>	Finally, liberated.
23:41:17	<dminuoso>	I tried really hard to find a reason to use `constraints` in one of our projects.. but no matter the mental gymnastics, I couldn't even justify it to myself.
23:42:01	<mauke>	% let { foo :: Dict (Show a) -> a -> String; foo Dict x = show x } in foo Dict '?'
23:42:01	<yahb2>	"'?'"
23:42:18	<mauke>	% let { foo :: Dict (Show a) -> a -> String; foo _ x = show x } in foo Dict '?'
23:42:18	<yahb2>	<interactive>:231:54: error: [GHC-39999] ; • No instance for ‘Show a’ arising from a use of ‘show’ ; Possible fix: ; add (Show a) to the context of ; the type signature ...
23:43:31	<dminuoso>	% withDict :: Dict a -> (a => r) -> r; withDict d r = case d of Dict -> r
23:43:31	<yahb2>	<no output>
23:43:50	<dminuoso>	mauke: ^- you must pattern match for the GADT packed dict to discharge the surrounding constraint.
23:44:13	<ski>	that's the point, yes
23:44:47	<dminuoso>	This machinery lives on not just ConstraintKinds but also GADTs.
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23:46:02	<mauke>	% let { withDict' :: Dict a -> (a => r) -> r; withDict' Dict = id } in ()
23:46:03	<yahb2>	<interactive>:237:62: error: [GHC-91028] ; • Couldn't match type ‘r’ with ‘a => r’ ; Expected: (a => r) -> r ; Actual: r -> r ; Cannot equate type variable ‘r’ ; with ...
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23:46:14	<mauke>	% let { withDict' :: Dict a -> (a => r) -> r; withDict' Dict r = r } in ()
23:46:14	<yahb2>	()
23:47:03	<dminuoso>	Okay I find the diagnostic a bit surprising here.
23:47:05	<mauke>	eta reduction: destroyed
23:49:17	<geekosaur>	% :set -XDeepSubsumption
23:49:17	<yahb2>	<no output>
23:49:38	<geekosaur>	% let { withDict'' :: Dict a -> (a => r) -> r; withDict'' Dict = id } in ()
23:49:39	<yahb2>	()
23:49:50	<ski>	(s/eta reduction/function extensionality/)
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23:51:33	<ski>	perhaps there should be an explicit syntax for dictionary application ?
23:52:03	<dminuoso>	Do we have a suitable syntax for type application, now?
23:52:20	<ski>	debatable
23:52:35	<dminuoso>	I recall there was a proposal a while ago, but I cant quite remember the name of the extension
23:53:02	ski	doesn't think the selection of `@' is great
23:54:02	<dminuoso>	% :set -XTypeAbstractions
23:54:02	<yahb2>	<no output>
23:54:13	<dminuoso>	% id @a x = (x :: a)
23:54:13	<yahb2>	<interactive>:263:4: error: [GHC-14964] ; • Invisible type pattern a has no associated forall ; • In an equation for ‘id’: id @a x = (x :: a)
23:54:13	<ski>	withShowable (WrapShowable @a x) k = k @a x -- could one write something like this ?
23:54:20	<dminuoso>	Hold on.
23:54:37	<dminuoso>	Invisible type pattern?
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23:54:51	<dminuoso>	% id :: a -> a; id @a x = (x :: a)
23:54:51	<yahb2>	<no output>
23:55:09	<dminuoso>	But that has no associated forall either..
23:55:20	<ski>	(assuming `data Showable = forall a. Show a => WrapShowable a', and `withShowable :: Showable -> (forall a. Show a => a -> o) -> o')
23:56:31	<dminuoso>	Oh well, I think I understand what the diagnostic is really trying to say
23:58:09	<dminuoso>	ski: At times I do wish we had a mechanism to just swap out typeclass instances, or have some overlapping ones and then decide which ones I want.
23:58:25	<ski>	mm
23:59:03	<dminuoso>	The discussions Ive seen over the years consistently bring up coherence issues, but they feel contrived.
23:59:36	<ski>	occasionally, i'd like to be able to define types (possibly non-locally depending on tyvars in scope) in `where' and `let', as well as making instances for them there
23:59:56	<dminuoso>	Oh, locally scoped instances yes.

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