Logs on 2025-02-17 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:02:07 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 00:07:55 | → | myxos joins (~myxos@syn-065-028-251-121.res.spectrum.com) |
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| 01:03:49 | × | JeremyB99 quits (~JeremyB99@2607:ac80:407:7:b900:756e:95ae:6311) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 01:07:11 | shr\ke_ | is now known as shr\ke |
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| 01:19:22 | × | sprotte24 quits (~sprotte24@p200300d16f1f9600ad38328a9d80fd0b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 01:19:45 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
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| 01:37:35 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
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| 02:00:15 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
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| 04:06:54 | × | Googulator quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4074-e4c1-4d2b-93a1-bece.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 07:41:30 | × | MyNetAz quits (~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) (Write error: Broken pipe) |
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| 09:14:24 | × | vanishing quits (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 10:33:57 | × | bitterx quits (~bitterx@APN-122-12-44-gprs.simobil.net) (Changing host) |
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| 14:46:34 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> A library is defining a non-orphan instance of a type class, which breaks important assumptions in our project. What can I do to programatically prevent my coworkers from using it? |
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| 14:47:05 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> I wanted to try to define a conflicting orphan instance, but since the original is non-orphan ghc doesn’t let me. |
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| 14:53:01 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> You don't trust me? |
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| 14:53:58 | <__monty__> | I hope there's a better solution than linting. |
| 14:54:40 | <tomsmeding> | maralorn: sorry lazy, didn't check, but what happens if you {-# INCOHERENT #-} your orphan? |
| 14:55:02 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: even linting would be difficult because that linter would need to do full type checking |
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| 14:55:32 | <tomsmeding> | a GHC plugin could do it, but probably the most practical solution is vendoring in that library and removing the offending instance |
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| 15:02:34 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> maerwald: I do trust you. I just prefer a technical solution over bothering you to learn that "toJSVal ()" is not equivalent to "toJSON ()". |
| 15:03:06 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> Which means we may not use () in our json docs … |
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| 15:06:29 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what useful or interesting monoidal product could be given to Hask? |
| 15:07:37 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> oh product type formation duh |
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| 15:22:24 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> tomsmeding: Sadly, not. Still a duplicate instance. |
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| 15:33:33 | <weechat2> | Hah, so I know some here have some stories about how GHC RTS has annoying bugs about signal handling.. |
| 15:33:44 | <weechat2> | Oh. What is this |
| 15:33:46 | weechat2 | is now known as dminuoso |
| 15:34:09 | <dminuoso> | Anyhow. Whatever the issues may be, it's nothing compared to this: https://docs.python.org/3/library/multiprocessing.html#multiprocessing.Process.terminate |
| 15:34:13 | <dminuoso> | finally clauses will not be executed! |
| 15:34:23 | <dminuoso> | That' |
| 15:34:58 | <dminuoso> | Though come to think of it, it is the same in Haskell is it not? |
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| 16:11:04 | <geekosaur> | I think we translate them to exceptions, which should allow them to execute? (unless you use `SIGKILL` and the OS prevents anything else from happening) |
| 16:11:32 | <merijn> | Or SIGSTOP ;) |
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| 16:16:10 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: see irc.server.liberachat.nicks and irc.server_default.nicks ;) |
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| 16:17:23 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Oh I think my weechat process is in some corrupted state anyway. |
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| 16:17:32 | <dminuoso> | I have some buffers with broken behavior |
| 16:17:57 | <tomsmeding> | also, python has an exception called "KeyboardInterrupt", so presumably if you send SIGTERM, finally clauses will be executed? |
| 16:18:00 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: rip your weechat |
| 16:18:29 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Okay so KeyboardInterrupt is an exception generated at safe points |
| 16:18:47 | <dminuoso> | The interpreter regularly checks for pending signals, and possibly raises an exception on the spot |
| 16:19:13 | <dminuoso> | Im right now porting a bunch of Haskell glue code to Python, and it's proving to be... quite an undertaking. |
| 16:20:44 | <dminuoso> | Concurrency between tasks, synchronization between tasks, being able to abort tasks, tasks fork()ing |
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| 16:24:08 | <EvanR> | probably a python library for that |
| 16:26:44 | <dminuoso> | For what Im doing, sadly no. |
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| 18:47:22 | <monochrom> | The same in Haskell. Fundamental principle: When the main thread quits, all other threads die without knowing. (If you know about Java daemon threads, every Haskell thread is a Java daemon thread.) |
| 18:48:45 | <monochrom> | If you SIGTERM, the main thread quits. If you SIGINT, the RTS turns it into an exception and throw to the main thread, then it's up to the main thread to decide what to do about it (and the default is, of course, die). |
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| 18:49:55 | <monochrom> | Actually I don't know know whether, with SIGTERM, even the main thread has a chance to do finally. (We know that other threads don't stand a chance.) |
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| 18:50:04 | <monochrom> | But hey this is easy to test! |
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| 18:56:34 | <monochrom> | The RTS gets SIGTERM and just silently discards all threads without notice. |
| 18:58:58 | <mauke> | does the rts catch sigterm? |
| 18:59:46 | <monochrom> | On the bright side, you can use System.Posix.Signals to add your own SIGTERM handler. |
| 19:00:25 | <monochrom> | Yes, because there is an extra message "Terminated" that can only come from the RTS. |
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| 19:01:05 | <monochrom> | Err, maybe not. I need to check who printed it. |
| 19:01:30 | <monochrom> | Oh, the shell. |
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| 19:02:14 | <monochrom> | OK, exit code 143 suggests that the RTS didn't install a signal handler! |
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| 19:05:31 | <mauke> | how so? |
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| 19:06:00 | <mauke> | exitWith (ExitFailure 143) is a possibility |
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| 19:08:56 | <monochrom> | That's why I chose "suggests" not "proved". Exercise for the reader to do one more test. |
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| 19:12:34 | <mauke> | the "terminated" message from the shell is proof, though |
| 19:13:41 | <mauke> | (it's not really exit code 143, of course; that's just the shell cramming 9 (or 16) bits of information into an 8-bit variable) |
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| 19:16:49 | <monochrom> | Yeah I know but didn't say it's $? saying 143 which is usually the shell doing a translation. |
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| 19:30:52 | <geekosaur> | 7, actually. the 8th is reserved for "core dumped" |
| 19:35:57 | <mauke> | which side are we talking about? |
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| 22:04:17 | <Inst__> | Is there an advantage to using pure over let in do notation? |
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| 22:04:31 | <Inst__> | Iirc let creates a think |
| 22:04:43 | <Inst__> | Thunk, if it's not optimized away |
| 22:06:07 | <geekosaur> | both create thunks, pure also makes you go through a lambda |
| 22:06:26 | <geekosaur> | it's unidiomatic and highly roundabout |
| 22:06:38 | <tomsmeding> | Inst__: what exact two formulations are you comparing? |
| 22:06:52 | <tomsmeding> | `let x = RHS` vs `x <- pure RHS`? |
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| 22:07:03 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
| 22:07:11 | <geekosaur> | wat |
| 22:07:55 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: there is one advantage of the pure-bind approach, sometimes: it triggers MonadFail on incomplete pattern matching |
| 22:08:09 | <tomsmeding> | sometimes that's what you want |
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| 22:08:40 | <tomsmeding> | also, probably by virtue of being compiled to a bind, it creates a scope that you can put an existential type variable in |
| 22:09:25 | <monochrom> | Yes, oleg would love "x <- pure (x+1); x <- pure (x+1)" :) |
| 22:09:36 | <tomsmeding> | and that, I suppose |
| 22:10:25 | <tomsmeding> | re the existential: https://play.haskell.org/saved/XGqnZPnC |
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| 22:11:30 | <monochrom> | Oh, as in "let" doesn't like pattern matching on an existential ctor. |
| 22:11:44 | <tomsmeding> | an existential ("skolem", I think?) type variable needs to live in a well-defined lexical scope for GHC, and a lambda is such a scope, but a let binding is not (I'm not sure why; laziness, perhaps? But adding lots of ! doesn't fix the example) |
| 22:12:44 | <tomsmeding> | (This is one reason I've used the `<- pure` odd-pattern (it's not quite an "anti-pattern"?) before) |
| 22:13:38 | <tomsmeding> | @tell Inst there was some more discussion: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2025/02/17?id=1483748#trid1483748 |
| 22:13:38 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 22:13:47 | <tomsmeding> | hope they'll join with their normal nick next time :p |
| 22:13:57 | <int-e> | the scope is still murky even with ! because lets can be recursive |
| 22:14:10 | <tomsmeding> | ah right |
| 22:14:14 | <monochrom> | The reason is just "too difficult, wont fix". "The reason for this restriction is really an implementation one. Type-checking binding groups is already a nightmare without existentials complicating the picture. Also an existential pattern binding at the top level of a module doesn’t make sense, because it’s not clear how to prevent the existentially-quantified type “escaping”. So for now, there’s a simple-to-state restriction. |
| 22:14:14 | <monochrom> | We’ll see how annoying it is." |
| 22:14:52 | <tomsmeding> | that explicit use of the term "binding groups" points to what int-e said, indeed |
| 22:15:04 | <tomsmeding> | well, not terribly, so far :) |
| 22:15:58 | <monochrom> | And ! doesn't make type inference easier. |
| 22:16:14 | <tomsmeding> | indeed |
| 22:16:29 | <tomsmeding> | I guess GHC _could_ special case very simple let-bindings with only one binding that is a function binding |
| 22:18:01 | <int-e> | and then people will complain about code that stops working with seemingly trivial changes |
| 22:18:13 | <tomsmeding> | which is why they don't |
| 22:18:20 | <int-e> | (even more than they do already) |
| 22:18:25 | <tomsmeding> | :) |
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| 22:19:51 | <Inst__> | Thanks |
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| 22:51:38 | <hololeap> | @unmtl |
| 22:51:38 | <lambdabot> | err: Parse error: ; |
| 22:51:58 | <hololeap> | @unmtl ExceptT e (MaybeT IO) a |
| 22:51:58 | <lambdabot> | IO (Maybe (Either e a)) |
| 22:51:58 | <tomsmeding> | @unmtl StateT s (Except e) a |
| 22:51:58 | <lambdabot> | s -> Except e (a, s) |
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| 22:52:40 | <hololeap> | @unmtl MaybeT (ExceptT e IO) a |
| 22:52:40 | <lambdabot> | IO (Either e (Maybe a)) |
| 22:52:52 | <hololeap> | that's the one |
| 22:52:55 | <hololeap> | :) |
| 22:53:19 | <tomsmeding> | when I have non-trivial mtl stacks I like to comment the newtype-expansion above it |
| 22:53:43 | <hololeap> | right on |
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| 22:57:00 | <tomsmeding> | :o https://play.haskell.org/saved/qVBBcc5S |
| 22:57:11 | <tomsmeding> | this is potentially even nicer |
| 22:57:32 | <tomsmeding> | self-documenting monads are here? |
| 22:57:55 | <hololeap> | yeah I really like DerivingVia |
| 22:58:03 | <hololeap> | I've used it like that before |
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| 22:58:45 | <monochrom> | Wait haha that is inverse programming :) |
| 22:58:54 | <tomsmeding> | >:) |
| 23:01:27 | <tomsmeding> | only downside: this requires mtl, you can't pull this trick with transformers alone |
| 23:01:37 | <tomsmeding> | and I've been avoiding mtl classes for a while and it suits me |
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| 23:09:58 | <Leary> | Whether I'm using mtl or just transformers, I regularly newtype-expand my monad transformers. There's a real advantage to it: if the monad you're transforming is known, you obtain better roles! |
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| 23:28:23 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 23:39:37 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:42:03 | × | euphores quits (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 23:44:18 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 23:47:51 | → | peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 23:48:47 | → | euphores joins (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) |
| 23:52:36 | × | sawilagar quits (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 23:54:58 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:59:10 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-02-17.