Logs on 2025-02-18 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:40:11 | <Inst> | I saw the transcript. |
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| 00:41:13 | <Inst> | Ugh, first time on OSX, need to figure out how to install Haskell toolchain (actually I want Rust, because it'll be interesting to set up a multi-AI query bot to instantly verify fake news) |
| 00:41:37 | <Inst> | Apparently Xiaohongshu (Rednote) is infested with foreign bots |
| 00:43:57 | <EvanR> | I use a few ways to install haskell on OSX but ghcup would be what I would use now |
| 00:44:04 | <EvanR> | if my macbook didn't die |
| 00:45:11 | <EvanR> | tomsmeding, by avoiding mtl classes, what do you use instead |
| 00:45:38 | <Inst> | yeah, already went to GHCup |
| 00:45:51 | <Inst> | also, is it valid to try to boycott Michael Snoyman? |
| 00:46:09 | <Inst> | Hecate would know why |
| 00:48:02 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> please don't target persons with FUD, if you have something the community really needs to hear about then speak up |
| 00:48:32 | <Inst> | It's just about politics, i.e, some people would wish to avoid products made by developers in certain countries. |
| 00:48:52 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> that's a better way to ask (general principles, not personal attacks) |
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| 00:49:18 | <Inst> | It came up on Wechat Haskell group, briefly, because of their local politics, but most people are too pragmatic to care, and Snoyman has built a lot of good software. |
| 00:49:31 | <EvanR> | this topic seems toxic as hell |
| 00:49:34 | <EvanR> | lovely |
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| 00:49:48 | <Inst> | Yeah, that's why I asked in that way, I just wanted to know if it was possible. |
| 00:50:01 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> there has been a lot of drama in the past, around snoyman in particular. Not keen to see that perpetuated. But sure, ask generally |
| 00:50:09 | <Inst> | Cabal has Snoyman on the contributors list, so you can't avoid Cabal. |
| 00:50:55 | <EvanR> | technically you can |
| 00:51:05 | <EvanR> | compile and link stuff directly |
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| 00:51:37 | <EvanR> | but I'll give you a 99% of chance of your reasons for doing so being ridiculous |
| 00:52:05 | <Inst> | And honestly, it's probably insincere / BS posturing to avoid Snoyman; if you really want to do so, build better libraries than Snoyman does and use them instead. It's not like his libraries are on anything other than maintainership mode. |
| 00:53:19 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> tuning out |
| 00:53:35 | <Inst> | I just wanted to ask, not throwing fuel on the fire. |
| 00:53:38 | <EvanR> | lol |
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| 00:57:32 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> no offense Inst, but I don't trust your judgement here. I'm with you that politics and principles are important to discuss sometimes, but if you must keep singling out some individual for your discussion, pick me, I don't mind :) |
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| 00:59:18 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> well I've said my piece, carry on |
| 00:59:55 | <Inst> | It's less about going after Snoyman, he's done a lot of work, but to make it explicit, some people BDS Israel, which I think is a valid political (but personal) choice, and Snoyman's libraries are technically in the scope. So, while I generally like Snoyman, I know people who don't, and might wish to BDS his library contributions. |
| 01:00:11 | <Inst> | Maybe forget this conversation, it's just cursed in general. |
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| 01:00:42 | <monochrom> | Yes you have a track record of creating cursed topics. |
| 01:01:03 | <monochrom> | If I boycott anything, it's cursed topics and their creators. |
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| 01:01:53 | <EvanR> | "Not to go after Snoyman, I don't mean to cast doubt on Snoyman, but fuck Snoyman?" -- Inst sounds like a third rate shill xD |
| 01:02:00 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I hear you. If you want to be practical, I think you/people could certainly start reviewing/listing/curating subsets of hackage/stackage based on certain criteria |
| 01:02:39 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> just let's not stir up vague FUD about individuals please |
| 01:02:41 | <monochrom> | Oh the Aesop fable of the mice predicts that people who not bother to do such things. :) |
| 01:02:55 | <monochrom> | s/who/will/ |
| 01:03:05 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I hear you. If you want to be practical, I think you could certainly start reviewing/listing/curating subsets of hackage/stackage based on certain criteria |
| 01:04:09 | <Inst> | sm: tbh, it's less useful than to have and to build good alternative libraries, which will eventually be used by others based on their utility, not personal politics. |
| 01:04:21 | <Inst> | For me, it's that http-conduit was my go-to. |
| 01:06:08 | <EvanR> | you want to rewrite http-conduit |
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| 01:07:30 | <EvanR> | if you did that it would be forever known as "this thing written for political purposes, while the author saying the whole time it's not" |
| 01:08:03 | <EvanR> | again contradicting what it seems like you're saying |
| 01:08:28 | <Inst> | yes, it would be written for political purposes, but whether or not it actually becomes useful depends on the quality of the code and the interface |
| 01:08:38 | <Inst> | *actually becomes commonly used |
| 01:09:01 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Sorry what? You boycott Snoymans libraries because of his nationality or did he actually share his political opinion publicly? |
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| 01:10:03 | <Inst> | tbh maybe you're right and it's silly, because it's open-source, no one's making any money off it |
| 01:10:32 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Inst building something as good as http-conduit isn't easy - I don't think you're seriously going to try but if you were, check out the existing alternatives |
| 01:10:44 | <Inst> | wreq is there |
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| 01:11:27 | <Inst> | ugh, i need to bring matrix back online, but you can find Snoyman's view on things online, which is shared publicly. It seems to me to be well-spoken and moderate, but your politics may vary. |
| 01:11:33 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oh sorry, I was thinking "conduit". That's a smaller task, but still pretty darn hard judging my my recent skim of http-client's issue tracker |
| 01:11:35 | <Inst> | would otherwise DM it to maerwald |
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| 01:12:48 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> * HTTP is |
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| 01:12:55 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> * by |
| 01:13:37 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> I find bringing politics into tech generally cancerous. People sharing their views in a respectful and non-invasive manner is a different matter. |
| 01:13:54 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 01:13:56 | <geekosaur> | ^ |
| 01:15:10 | <Inst> | I'm just more surprised the old "hang snoyman" faction never built a boycott and alternative list before the events of the past few years. |
| 01:15:31 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> are you seriously going to keep mentioning his name in every comment ? |
| 01:15:40 | <Inst> | I'll drop it, forget it. |
| 01:15:49 | <monochrom> | Finally. |
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| 01:16:24 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> I've had intense political arguments at Zurihac in private. It works much better than online, in my experience. |
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| 01:17:43 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Online political commentary is rarel insightful |
| 01:18:15 | <monochrom> | Oh, very generally, opinions are rarely valuable. |
| 01:18:17 | <geekosaur> | I'm not sure I recommend political arguments anyway. people tend to get defensive and intransigent, which makes it pointless |
| 01:19:23 | <EvanR> | someone once said there are no good arguments, only good arguers |
| 01:19:29 | <monochrom> | be it politics or technical topics. https://danluu.com/cocktail-ideas/ explains the technical topics case. |
| 01:19:43 | <Axman6> | monochrom: my opinion is your opinion is valuable |
| 01:19:47 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Yes, veritasium made an interesting video on that. Apparently bias gets worse the more intelligent you are. |
| 01:19:59 | <monochrom> | I'm a rarity! >:D |
| 01:23:22 | <EvanR> | *edits the CSS of that page with the debugger to decrease the width* |
| 01:23:40 | <EvanR> | I get exhausted reading before the end of the line |
| 01:23:55 | <monochrom> | Or just shrink the browser window width to what it should be! |
| 01:24:17 | <EvanR> | change the size of the window :horror: ? |
| 01:24:44 | <monochrom> | It is other web pages that assume/require wide windows that are wrong. |
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| 01:25:58 | <monochrom> | My opinion is valueless like I said, but IMO no web page design has the right to force a width on you. You choose your favourite width and the web page should still work fine. |
| 01:26:28 | <monochrom> | and height, and font size, and font styles, etc etc |
| 01:26:52 | <EvanR> | configuration over convention eh? |
| 01:27:04 | <monochrom> | But it's not just my opinion by now. After decades, accessibility rediscovers the same principle. |
| 01:28:02 | <Inst> | maerwald: is it because reality is a poorly-defined axiomatic system? |
| 01:28:12 | <Inst> | And people tend not to acknowledge that fact? |
| 01:28:36 | <EvanR> | reality is not a poorly-defined axiomatic system |
| 01:28:54 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Watch the video |
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| 01:29:53 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oh sorry, I was thinking "conduit". HTTP is a smaller[bigger?] task, but still pretty darn hard judging by my recent skim of http-client's issue tracker |
| 01:30:19 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oh sorry, I was thinking "conduit". HTTP is a smaller[bigger?] task, but also pretty darn hard judging by my recent skim of http-client's issue tracker |
| 01:31:56 | <geekosaur> | your edits of old messages are kinda screwy on this side |
| 01:32:15 | <EvanR> | IRC is append-only log xD |
| 01:32:42 | <geekosaur> | reality isn't an axiomatic system at all. people tend to take their personal beliefs as axioms and try to force reality to fit those axioms. (I include myself in this; the only difference is I'm aware of it and to some extent why it's so) |
| 01:32:52 | <monochrom> | I'm OK with edits, until you edit very old messages, at which point the point is moot. |
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| 01:36:05 | <Leary> | Vsauce also has a good video ('The Future of Reasoning') about how human intelligence is not embodied by individuals, but rather by groups---basically we /need/ to discuss difficult problems (preferably in small groups IRL), or we're only operating at half capacity. Still can't convince me to talk politics though. >.> |
| 01:37:01 | <geekosaur> | bet he gets along well with James Burke… |
| 01:37:28 | <geekosaur> | (sarcasm, if its not clear) |
| 01:37:32 | <monochrom> | Except/Until you hear from some of us that the rubber duck method is equivalent to talking to real people. >:) |
| 01:38:22 | <monochrom> | On that note, I like to butcher a Shaw quote. I argue with myself all the time, it adds sparks to my arguments. >:) |
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| 01:41:25 | <monochrom> | Mathematicians have actually learned to do that. When they are working on a conjecture, they divide up their time to try both proving and disproving. And the two efforts actually help feed each other. |
| 01:41:26 | <geekosaur> | re rubber duck method, that only addresses half the problem (organizing one's own thoughts), it doesn't address synergistic effects from multiple viewpoints |
| 01:42:06 | <monochrom> | I have success with that sometimes. I build a counterexample by trying to prove with pretty standard techniques. |
| 01:42:25 | <monochrom> | (and see where I get stuck, that's where counterexamples are inspired) |
| 01:42:35 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> sorry for the edits, I forgot this room is IRC-bridged and IRC-first |
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| 01:44:21 | <Inst> | geekosaur: sorry for bringing it up, but #haskell-offtopic |
| 01:44:50 | <monochrom> | #haskell-offtopic is not where you dump your toxic topics either. |
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| 01:45:44 | <geekosaur> | this channel often goes offtopic when nothing else is going on, it's not a problem unless it interferes with on-topic discussions |
| 01:45:55 | <geekosaur> | and -offtopic isn't bridged and probably won't be |
| 01:46:43 | <geekosaur> | I should mention that the current bridge is part of why edits don't work well, it for example never uses s/// edits so it's often unclear what it's replacing |
| 01:47:02 | user363627 | is now known as weary-traveler |
| 01:47:45 | <geekosaur> | I am waiting for something to come through, if it does I will be moving the bridge off my laptop to dedicated hosting and probably off my personal domain name. and since that'll require rebuilding everything anyway, I may switch to matrix-appservice-irc which will get better editing and bidirectional puppeting |
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| 01:48:50 | <Inst> | I mean that events, what is real, are essentially axioms, and the not well-defined part comes out to what events people agree happened. A lot of discourse essentially comes down to arguing over axioms; you can prove that they're inconsistent sometimes, but only sometimes. |
| 01:49:54 | <geekosaur> | "events" are in the eye of the beholder; they make lousy axioms |
| 01:50:46 | <geekosaur> | ask three people what happened, you get at least 3 different answers |
| 01:51:55 | <EvanR> | geekosaur, a bridge feature which transliterates edits using a much smaller s/foo/bar/ pattern, if possible, for the IRC side would be funny |
| 01:52:36 | <Inst> | Which is my point about that being an explanation for why bias is more intense with intelligent people. |
| 01:52:38 | <EvanR> | though it might be nonsensical when done 30 minutes later |
| 01:52:51 | <monochrom> | I just wonder (I am evil) what if my message is "s/space/spaces/" and then I edit it to "s/space/spice/" >:) |
| 01:53:10 | <EvanR> | processing |
| 01:54:08 | <EvanR> | so it reports s/spaces/spice/ right lol |
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| 01:54:24 | <monochrom> | Oh! Right, that's easy. |
| 01:55:01 | <weary-traveler> | what are we talking about? |
| 01:55:21 | <weary-traveler> | sed patterns? |
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| 01:55:45 | <monochrom> | I should use examples like from "s/space/spaces/" to "nah". My goal was to force an escape code convention. But on 2nd thought, the point is moot because no one on matrix has an incentive to use s/// notation in the first place. |
| 01:55:54 | <EvanR> | autogenerating simplistic sed patterns from two versions of messages |
| 01:56:52 | <EvanR> | yes it breaks down if it's not a minor edit |
| 01:57:41 | <weary-traveler> | i propose that a diff patch be generated and uploaded to a paste service |
| 01:57:46 | <EvanR> | the wizard went vaguely north |
| 01:57:48 | <EvanR> | edited to |
| 01:57:54 | <EvanR> | the ogre went vaguely west |
| 01:58:05 | <EvanR> | no one would sed substitute it |
| 01:58:29 | <EvanR> | with 1 command |
| 01:59:12 | <monochrom> | If you're limited to 1 command, I have a feeling that it's an NP-complete problem. |
| 01:59:18 | <jackdk> | `s/.*/the ogre went vaguely west/` |
| 01:59:22 | <weary-traveler> | jokes aside, it might be better to paste the updated message anew. something like: "EDIT: xyz (WAS: abc)" |
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| 02:00:15 | <weary-traveler> | (assuming i didn't misunderstand the context that this is in the context of an irc bridge) |
| 02:00:42 | <weary-traveler> | i.e., the approach that message-mode takes when altering subject in an email thread |
| 02:04:33 | <geekosaur> | weary-traveler, we're talking about Matrix-side edits sent to IRC |
| 02:04:44 | <geekosaur> | (this channel exists on both with a bridge bot) |
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| 02:05:52 | <geekosaur> | so yeh, appservice-irc would send the second edit relative to the first, not the originsl |
| 02:06:24 | <geekosaur> | but it would still need to send the whole message again if there've been additional messages sent since |
| 02:06:41 | <geekosaur> | there's just no good solution given IRC doesn't support edits |
| 02:06:46 | <weary-traveler> | geekosaur: thanks for confirming. pasting the full message with the original parenthesized seems like the best approach "default" approach to me. small levenshtein distance edits might be better suited for a sed-pattern approach |
| 02:07:36 | <geekosaur> | oh, matrix-appserice-irc also includes just enough context to disambiguate if an edit could otherwise match in multiple places |
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| 05:22:49 | <ski> | "Also an existential pattern binding at the top level of a module doesn’t make sense" -- SML/NJ,PolyML kinda does something like that, when not generalizing in the presence of the value restriction (effectively replacing the tyvars with skolems) |
| 05:23:04 | <ski> | OCaml,MoSML,MetaML otoh leaves the tyvars as meta variables, so later declarations could possibly instantiate them |
| 05:24:32 | <ski> | (didn't check MLton,ML Kit,ML Works,Alice ML,EML,Caml) |
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| 05:24:54 | <ski> | (hm, nor F#) |
| 05:25:11 | <ski> | "because it’s not clear how to prevent the existentially-quantified type “escaping”" -- neither SML nor OCaml does appear to prevent the skolem from leaking / the metavar from being instantiated after the module has been constructed, although it would probably be possible to do, somewhat similar to what is done with opening existentials in a local scope |
| 05:25:19 | <ski> | instead of checking it doesn't occur in result type, you'd need to check it doesn't occur in types of exported operations |
| 05:25:30 | <ski> | "how human intelligence is not embodied by individuals, but rather by groups---basically we /need/ to discuss difficult problems (preferably in small groups IRL), or we're only operating at half capacity" -- distributed cognition |
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| 07:21:24 | <[exa]> | ok so now that we have the wasm and wasm still has zero official ways of interacting with DOM, wouldn't it be quite logical to build a small interpreter of wasm structures to DOM manipulation commands, so that we could just stream the changes to some small js urchin that interprets the whole thing into the browser DOM? |
| 07:21:42 | <[exa]> | ^ possible nonsense, just decided to think out loud |
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| 07:23:18 | <[exa]> | as in, react & pals have a similar thing (they "interpret" via diffing and rebuild whole structure twice anyway), so the performance hit shouldn't be harsh |
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| 08:19:40 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: re what instead of mtl classes: write a monad definition, write the methods I want it to have, don't export the monad definition :p |
| 08:20:37 | <tomsmeding> | sometimes if I want a local State or something I just do that; you can use Control.Monad.Trans.Class(MonadTrans(lift)) to, well, lift methods to monads further down (?) the stack |
| 08:20:56 | <tomsmeding> | lifts usually go up, this one doesn't apparently /shrug/ |
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| 08:38:34 | ski | . o O ( `exists m. Monad m *> ..m.. -> ...' ) |
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| 08:58:14 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> [exa] that sounds like a good comment for #haskell-wasm:matrix.org (https://matrix.to/#/#haskell-wasm:matrix.org) |
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| 09:42:51 | <[exa]> | sm: oh noes that one isn't on irc? |
| 09:42:55 | [exa] | sad |
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| 09:45:07 | <[exa]> | (ok wow I just made matrix go http500 by putting brackets in my username) |
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| 09:46:07 | <tomsmeding> | input validation is difficult, 2025 webscale edition? |
| 09:47:41 | <[exa]> | nick injection attack!!!1 |
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| 16:46:10 | <pounce> | does anybody know how to delete all _built_ packages in cabal? |
| 16:46:25 | <pounce> | here's my xyproblem: I'm trying to fix performance of building a haskell project with all dependencies |
| 16:46:41 | <pounce> | but once i build it once then it's faster... because cabal caches all the pcakages |
| 16:47:28 | <sclv> | pass in a different - - store-dir |
| 16:48:00 | <pounce> | the actual cabal command is pretty deep in a makefile |
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| 16:49:04 | <sclv> | ok then change the storedir in your ~/.cabal/config |
| 16:49:35 | <sclv> | you can also delete the whole store from thereabouts if you Really want |
| 16:49:43 | <pounce> | i don't have a ~/.cabal bc i use it with the xdg desktop dirs setup |
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| 16:49:46 | <pounce> | which is why it's a bit harder |
| 16:49:57 | <pounce> | i tried deleting ~/.local/state/cabal but that didn't help |
| 16:50:17 | <fvr> | pounce: is there no ~/.config/cabal? |
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| 16:51:06 | <sclv> | with xdg it might be somewhere else like local/state. i don’t remember where xdg will say store goes |
| 16:51:14 | <pounce> | i have that, but that's not where downloaded files go |
| 16:51:20 | <pounce> | since ~/.config is human modified only |
| 16:52:13 | <fvr> | But perhaps you can change storedir in ~/.config/cabal/config |
| 16:52:45 | <[exa]> | pounce: if I got it right you're benchmarking the build time? |
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| 16:53:19 | <pounce> | yeah |
| 16:53:53 | <pounce> | so specifically this makefile sets -j1 (which I _think_ is propogated) with some comment that says it makes output pretty. I want to test if it goes faster without this, and whether the output looks similar |
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| 16:54:03 | <pounce> | before I PR |
| 16:54:32 | <[exa]> | not sure if -j1 from `make` will propagate to cabal builds tbh (unless there's some magicks involved) |
| 16:54:34 | <fvr> | pounce: if you remove everything they you're also benchmarking download speeds I suppose, so you first `cabal build --only-download` and then run the benchmark |
| 16:55:04 | <pounce> | well afaik downloads are stored in ~/.cache |
| 16:55:11 | <pounce> | because when i removed ~/.cache/cabal only the downloads happened again |
| 16:55:23 | <pounce> | [exa]: sorry, -j1 for *cabal* |
| 16:55:33 | <pounce> | e.g. CABAL_ARGS="-j1 ...." |
| 16:55:34 | <geekosaur> | if you remove the store, downloaded files are still around; that's ~/.cache/cabal/packages |
| 16:55:36 | <fvr> | ah, I see |
| 16:55:57 | <fvr> | does `CABAL_DIR` environment variable still work with xdg ? |
| 16:56:05 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 16:56:23 | <[exa]> | pounce: ok tbh I wouldn't say it improves the logs a lot; cabal is quite consistent in what is printed even on many CPUs... |
| 16:56:48 | <[exa]> | pounce: anyway passing random -j1s like this is very bad indeed and your cause is important! :D |
| 16:57:06 | <pounce> | i saw a stackoverflow post from a few years back saying that cabal didn't use to print built packages when run with -j<blah> |
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| 16:57:53 | <[exa]> | pounce: for me it prints all the individual steps (like configuring foo, building foo, installing foo, the only difference is that with -j >= 1 these are mildly interleaved |
| 16:58:04 | <pounce> | oops, a few years being... 14 years ago xD |
| 16:58:07 | <fvr> | what happens if you instead set `XDG_STATE_HOME` env variable before running, does that change state directory |
| 16:58:13 | <pounce> | but hey it's an old haskell project |
| 16:59:08 | <pounce> | https://stackoverflow.com/a/16959611/7903988 [-j1 .... "gives much cleaner output"] |
| 16:59:10 | <pounce> | in 2013 |
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| 16:59:20 | <pounce> | which is probably why it was done with this originally |
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| 17:04:05 | <pounce> | if i set CABAL_DIR=/tmp/cabal and then delete everything in /tmp/cabal it still says all the packages were installed |
| 17:05:56 | <[exa]> | pounce: ok well cabal was completely different in 2013. that might be even before the nix-style builds. |
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| 17:11:57 | <fvr> | pounce: perhaps try setting `XDG_STATE_HOME` instead |
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| 17:15:57 | <pounce> | oops all my haskell packages are broken :( |
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| 17:17:32 | <pounce> | m, the package registry was in ~/.ghc |
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| 17:22:38 | <ski> | @where SICP |
| 17:22:38 | <lambdabot> | "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs",Harold Abelsson,Gerald Jay Sussman(,Julie Sussman),1996,<https://mitp-content-server.mit.edu/books/content/sectbyfn/books_pres_0/6515/sicp.zip/ |
| 17:22:38 | <lambdabot> | index.html>,<https://web.mit.edu/6.001/6.037/sicp.pdf>,<https://github.com/sarabander/sicp-pdf>,<https://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-texi/>,<https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson- |
| 17:22:38 | <lambdabot> | sussman-lectures/> | See also `SICP-cabal' |
| 17:22:45 | <ski> | (updated broken links) |
| 17:23:08 | <ski> | @where SICP-cabal |
| 17:23:08 | <lambdabot> | "Storage and Identification of Cabalized Packages" <https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/sicp.xhtml> |
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| 17:32:24 | <__monty__> | ski: This is a nice modern version of SICP.texi, https://sarabander.github.io/sicp/html/index.xhtml |
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| 17:34:14 | <ski> | ah, ty |
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| 17:44:03 | <ski> | seems <https://web.mit.edu/6.001/6.037/sicp.pdf> is slightly more updated (PDF) version of that (2016-02-02 over 2015-09-16). <https://sicpebook.wordpress.com/> seems to have some more info |
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| 18:01:24 | <ski> | @where SICP |
| 18:01:24 | <lambdabot> | "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" (2nd ed.) by Harold Abelsson,Gerald Jay Sussman,(w. Julie Sussman) in 1996 at `SICP-html',`SICP-pdf',`SICP-epub',<https://sicpebook.wordpress.com/> |
| 18:01:25 | <lambdabot> | ,(TexInfo) <https://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-texi/>,(video lectures) <https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/> | See also `SICP-cabal' |
| 18:01:31 | <ski> | @where SICP-html |
| 18:01:31 | <lambdabot> | <https://mitp-content-server.mit.edu/books/content/sectbyfn/books_pres_0/6515/sicp.zip/index.html>,<https://sarabander.github.io/sicp/>,<https://github.com/sarabander/sicp> |
| 18:01:35 | <ski> | @where SICP-pdf |
| 18:01:35 | <lambdabot> | <https://web.mit.edu/6.001/6.037/sicp.pdf>,<https://github.com/sarabander/sicp-pdf/blob/master/sicp.pdf?raw=true>,<https://github.com/sarabander/sicp-pdf>,<https://github.com/sarabander/sicp-pocket>, |
| 18:01:35 | <lambdabot> | <https://github.com/minghai/sicp-pdf/> |
| 18:01:38 | <ski> | @where SICP-epub |
| 18:01:38 | <lambdabot> | <https://github.com/sarabander/sicp-epub/blob/master/sicp.epub?raw=true>,<https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9jt5kmabt02yg8/sicp.epub?dl=0> |
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| 18:14:10 | <hololeap> | I'm a big fan of AccumT because it gives the best of both worlds in regards to StateT and WriterT, but does anyone know if it suffers from the same kinds of deficiencies as WriterT (the ones that prompt people to recommend the CPS version of WriterT)? |
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| 18:19:19 | <[exa]> | hololeap: AccumT is internally roughly the same as StateT right? reads to me a lot like CPS is already there |
| 18:22:45 | <hololeap> | ok, I'm not sure I fully understood what was being changed (or more importantly why) between Writer and Writer.CPS, but I see that internally Writer.CPS is also w -> m (a, w) |
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| 18:32:25 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Thanks, those weechat options work fine. :) |
| 18:32:51 | <dminuoso> | It's almost bizarre that I have been using weechat for over 10 years, but unable to do even the most basic configuration.. |
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| 18:33:48 | <int-e> | hololeap: >>= is different: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/3y0drzUF |
| 18:35:17 | <int-e> | hololeap: err, and so is the type. newtype WriterT w m a = WriterT { runWriterT :: m (a, w) } |
| 18:35:47 | <int-e> | (no w argument) |
| 18:35:52 | <hololeap> | when I said "also w -> m (a, w)" I was comparing it to AccumT |
| 18:36:34 | <int-e> | Ah. I only read half the context as usual :-/ |
| 18:37:14 | <hololeap> | no worries! I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page |
| 18:38:37 | <int-e> | So the difference is the interface. |
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| 18:42:17 | int-e | wonders how many people have ever used `censor` |
| 18:42:36 | <int-e> | (from Writer) |
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| 18:49:06 | <EvanR> | quite an evocative name |
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| 18:55:44 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: for these tools with too many configuration options, you mostly don't, and then whenever you think you need something, you search whether there is a config option for it |
| 18:56:21 | <dminuoso> | I have accepted my fate in this universe: ChatGPT is doing my emacs customizations for me for similar reasons. |
| 18:56:33 | <dminuoso> | It's my best usecase for an LLM. :-) |
| 18:56:50 | <tomsmeding> | I have not yet accepted my fate |
| 18:56:54 | <tomsmeding> | maybe I'm too young yet |
| 18:57:20 | <dminuoso> | I'm not that old, but I have noticed that I cant develop any focus or interest in learning how all the moving parts in emacs connect. |
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| 18:57:51 | <dminuoso> | It's rather the consequence of being bottlenecked. |
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| 18:58:30 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps it would be different if I used emacs, and not vim, or perhaps it actually doesn't really matter |
| 18:58:43 | <dminuoso> | Like for that one refactor job I needed an interface to quickly go back and forth across a bunch of files matching some regex with C-, and C-. such that I can instantly compare them |
| 18:58:43 | <tomsmeding> | they work differently for sure |
| 18:58:57 | <geekosaur> | I found elisp interesting enough to bother learning it |
| 18:59:24 | <geekosaur> | but then I started that in the late 80s, when it was more interesting than a lot of stuff |
| 18:59:34 | <tomsmeding> | heh |
| 18:59:57 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: you want evocative names? Try MonadChronicle |
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| 19:00:07 | <geekosaur> | these days I can't be arsed to learn vimscript, and the examples I've seen don't help |
| 19:00:25 | <tomsmeding> | the worst decision in vimscript is to make " the comment character |
| 19:00:43 | <EvanR> | " be comment is prior art elsewhere |
| 19:00:53 | <tomsmeding> | what moron decided that's a good idea |
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| 19:01:13 | <EvanR> | also single quote a synonym for REM |
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| 19:01:42 | <int-e> | it's a nicely unobtrusive character, no? |
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| 19:02:04 | <tomsmeding> | put something in "quotes" in your comment and oh no, suddenly half of your comment is a string literal |
| 19:02:11 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Hey vim users should feel glad that strings dont use single hash instead: echo #Hello world |
| 19:02:24 | <tomsmeding> | isn't that a symbol? |
| 19:02:31 | <tomsmeding> | which is not quite the same as a string in lisp land |
| 19:02:36 | tomsmeding | knows essentially no lisp |
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| 19:03:33 | <dminuoso> | Heh, while I dont know much about elisp, the difference between let and let* instantly clicked |
| 19:03:46 | <tomsmeding> | what's the difference? |
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| 19:04:02 | <dminuoso> | let* is sequential binding, whereas let does not enforce it. |
| 19:04:14 | <tomsmeding> | is 'let' lazy? |
| 19:04:24 | <tomsmeding> | or allows recursion? |
| 19:05:11 | <dminuoso> | Not quite, it's rather that let evaluates them concurrently |
| 19:05:12 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: using " for comments in vimscript is akin to using + for comments, or so |
| 19:05:19 | <tomsmeding> | you use both about equally often |
| 19:05:35 | <dminuoso> | Lack of lazyness means you cannot have let bindings refer to each other |
| 19:05:40 | <dminuoso> | But with let* you can refer to earlier ones |
| 19:05:44 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: any way you can observe that concurrent evaluation? |
| 19:06:13 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: absolutely, you can have side effects in them. |
| 19:06:26 | <tomsmeding> | is the idea that the things you put in 'let' have side effects, and when they're waiting on IO, some other expression can continue? |
| 19:06:32 | <dminuoso> | Whether they actually do get executed concurrently or not probably depends on the exact kind of lisp you are using. |
| 19:06:35 | <tomsmeding> | and when you use the value you block until it's done? |
| 19:08:02 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: The difference can also be subtle. lisp is way more symbolic in the sense that `x` is not a reference to a particular thing |
| 19:08:16 | <dminuoso> | It's more like in lambda calculus where `x` is just `x`. |
| 19:08:28 | <tomsmeding> | do you mean dynamic scoping? Or does it do symbolic execution? |
| 19:08:45 | <dminuoso> | What's the difference here in this context? |
| 19:08:53 | <dminuoso> | But yeah, dynamic scoping. |
| 19:09:23 | <tomsmeding> | whether `(+ (+ 2 3) x)`, when x is undefined, evaluates to `(+ 5 x)`, or to "error: x is not bound" |
| 19:09:57 | <dminuoso> | Im not sure about this example to be honest. |
| 19:10:17 | <dminuoso> | There's also evaluation strategy in the mix now. |
| 19:10:35 | <tomsmeding> | I would also accept `(+ (+ 2 3) x)` instead of `(+ 5 x)`. :) |
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| 19:10:45 | <tomsmeding> | (if it decides to evaluate arguments right-to-left or something) |
| 19:11:19 | <tomsmeding> | I don't see any other sensible results than those three |
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| 19:11:33 | <dminuoso> | I would say symbolic execution is a strategy to get a maximall dynamically scoped program. |
| 19:11:35 | <tomsmeding> | the "error" result would correspond to dynamic scoping, the other two to symbolic execution |
| 19:12:28 | <tomsmeding> | is there some 'print' function that puts whatever you pass it as argument, onto the screen as output? |
| 19:12:36 | <tomsmeding> | what does `(print (+ (+ 2 3) x))` yield? |
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| 19:12:58 | <tomsmeding> | assuming x has not yet been defined |
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| 19:13:20 | <dminuoso> | That would give you (void-variable x) |
| 19:13:32 | <dminuoso> | In lisp the difference between symbolic execution and dynamic scoping is meaningless |
| 19:13:41 | <dminuoso> | I would say its both? |
| 19:14:11 | <tomsmeding> | aha, so the `(+ 5 _)` context was lost |
| 19:14:38 | <tomsmeding> | if it was symbolic execution, I would expect the context to be retained so that in principle, if you later decide to set x to some value, you can resume execution |
| 19:15:38 | <dminuoso> | But thats the thing, because in lisp there is on difference between data and code, it can blow up or not, depending on how you use it. |
| 19:15:48 | <dminuoso> | This is what homoiconicity means |
| 19:15:52 | <tomsmeding> | assume I'm treating it as code :p |
| 19:16:01 | <dminuoso> | That's a personal choice? |
| 19:16:18 | <tomsmeding> | I dunno, perhaps I'm trying too hard to map this to concepts I know |
| 19:16:25 | <tomsmeding> | I probably am |
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| 19:17:36 | <tomsmeding> | I know roughly what 'quote' and 'eval' do |
| 19:17:41 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: What Im saying is, is there a big meaningful difference between (+ 5 x) and '(+ 5 x) ? |
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| 19:18:14 | <tomsmeding> | well, if I evaluate the former I get (void-variable x), whereas if I evaluate the latter, I get '(+ 5 x) |
| 19:18:19 | <tomsmeding> | so semantically, yes :p |
| 19:18:28 | <dminuoso> | Well you can (eval) it |
| 19:18:30 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps the ' there is not quite appropriate |
| 19:18:40 | <dminuoso> | And depending on whether you (setq x 10) before it blows up or not. |
| 19:18:43 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 19:18:49 | <dminuoso> | That is, '(+ 5 x) is not a quoted closure |
| 19:18:54 | <tomsmeding> | I get that |
| 19:19:34 | <tomsmeding> | okay, I think I get what you're saying in that it's somehow "both" symbolic execution and dynamic scoping |
| 19:19:59 | <dminuoso> | In Haskell we would differentiate between regular code and TH code because there's huge separations. But in plenty of lisp code there's very strong quoting and unquoting going on. |
| 19:20:02 | <tomsmeding> | it's a term reducer |
| 19:20:08 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 19:20:12 | <dminuoso> | Its idiomatic to blend the quoted and not quoted language. |
| 19:20:38 | <tomsmeding> | in my mind, it's just that, though: it's idiomatic to blend the quoted and non-quoted language |
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| 19:20:43 | <tomsmeding> | doesn't mean that there's magic going on |
| 19:21:08 | <tomsmeding> | just that you have different idioms, and syntax (and builtins) that are designed specifically for those idioms |
| 19:21:49 | <dminuoso> | Okay the more I think about it, the more I accept that its really not symbolic execution. |
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| 19:22:15 | <tomsmeding> | so I would say: `x` is very much a variable reference, but you have quoting, and a quoted term is just nested lists that you can interpret in any way you want |
| 19:22:21 | <dminuoso> | Because the act of unquoting/eval'ing dynamically binds it |
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| 19:22:37 | <tomsmeding> | and because ' is so unobtrusive, it feels like `x` gets a more symbolic meaning somehow? |
| 19:22:57 | <dminuoso> | But there's no way to sort of reduce `(+ (+ 2 3) x)` to `(+ 5 x)`, short of running it through a lisp interpreter. |
| 19:23:07 | <tomsmeding> | not a standard lisp interpreter even |
| 19:23:23 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Did this channel get mixed up with a lisp channel? :P |
| 19:23:32 | <dminuoso> | Hey, when do we ever talk about Haskell in where? |
| 19:23:39 | <dminuoso> | Haskell is for #haskell-offtopic-offtopic. |
| 19:23:41 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: it started with weechat, if you believe that |
| 19:24:02 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> tomsmeding: i do :P |
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| 19:24:29 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: By the way, did I ever apologize to pulling you to munihac 2 years ago and not showing up? |
| 19:24:44 | <tomsmeding> | I never went to munihac, so there's nothing to apologise for? |
| 19:24:47 | <dminuoso> | Oh! |
| 19:24:50 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps someone else :) |
| 19:24:52 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> dminuoso: right so #haskell is for offtopic and #haskell-offtopic is for haskell, statistically checks out |
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| 19:25:06 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: no, that's #haskell-offtopic-offtopic |
| 19:25:27 | <tomsmeding> | #haskell-offtopic is for offtopic |
| 19:25:30 | <dminuoso> | (And yes, that place once existed because people were having haskell discussions in #haskell-offtopic) |
| 19:25:31 | <tomsmeding> | #haskell is for lisp, it seems, today |
| 19:25:42 | tomsmeding | has never seen it |
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| 19:25:52 | <dminuoso> | It may have fallen into the abyss |
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| 19:26:27 | <int-e> | dminuoso: don't look up if you hate people people staring at you |
| 19:26:43 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Should have been #offtopic-haskell-offtopic a nice offtopic sandwich |
| 19:26:50 | <tomsmeding> | but then, don't look down if you don't like the abyss staring at you? |
| 19:26:58 | <tomsmeding> | hah |
| 19:27:04 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Just dont look, problem solved |
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| 19:27:35 | <monochrom> | #haskell ≅ ∀r. #haskell-r-r >:) |
| 19:27:50 | <monochrom> | (by Yoneda lemma!) |
| 19:27:53 | <tomsmeding> | and now we've merged with ##dependent |
| 19:28:20 | <dminuoso> | I categorically reject that joke. |
| 19:28:46 | <int-e> | @quote dependable |
| 19:28:47 | <lambdabot> | int-e says: I want dependable types. |
| 19:29:38 | <monochrom> | @unmtl Cont offtopic haskell |
| 19:29:38 | <lambdabot> | (haskell -> offtopic) -> offtopic |
| 19:29:41 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 19:30:42 | <int-e> | monochrom: what about -blah |
| 19:30:52 | <monochrom> | @unmtl Cont blah haskell |
| 19:30:52 | <lambdabot> | (haskell -> blah) -> blah |
| 19:31:25 | <tomsmeding> | surely not, surely there we have haskell-blah-blah = haskell - 2blah |
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| 20:24:21 | <hololeap> | forall r. (a -> (s -> IO (r,s)) -> s -> IO (r,s)) -> (s -> IO (r,s)) -> (s -> IO (r,s)) |
| 20:24:24 | <hololeap> | vs |
| 20:24:29 | <hololeap> | s -> (forall r. ((a,s) -> IO r -> IO r) -> IO r -> IO r) |
| 20:24:32 | <hololeap> | hmm |
| 20:25:15 | <hololeap> | LogicT (StateT s IO) vs. StateT s (LogicT IO) |
| 20:28:03 | <hololeap> | the second one looks far more sane so it's probably what I want |
| 20:28:52 | <hololeap> | (going down a tree of dependencies, with the possibility to branch at each node, modifying a state along the way) |
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| 21:11:45 | <hololeap> | that was actually a misleading way of explaining what I'm trying to do. basically, start with a handful of text files as starting points, analyze them and jump to any other text files that are referenced (if they haven't been touched yet), building up a summary of all the text files that have been visited |
| 21:12:01 | <hololeap> | so, fairly similar to a web spider I suppose |
| 21:13:10 | <hololeap> | I think I need to write the LogicT module as an exercise for myself to help understand it. I think of lists as structures, not functions |
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| 21:29:33 | <monochrom> | LogicT = codensity of ListT-done-right |
| 21:30:36 | <monochrom> | codensity of M = forall r. (a -> m r) -> m r |
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| 21:32:06 | <monochrom> | or maybe more elementarily: LogicT = CPS of ListT-done-right |
| 21:32:21 | <hololeap> | fmap f (Logic l) = Logic $ \c n -> l (\x r -> c (f x) r) n |
| 21:32:29 | <hololeap> | this is already brain-melting lol |
| 21:32:51 | <monochrom> | Logic = CPS of [] |
| 21:33:17 | <monochrom> | So you're just CPSing "fmap f (x:xs) = f x : fmap f xs" |
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| 21:41:21 | <monochrom> | or rather, replace [] by church-encoding |
| 21:43:53 | <hololeap> | fmap f l = \c -> l (c . f) |
| 21:44:00 | <hololeap> | fmap f (x:xs) = f x : fmap f xs |
| 21:44:42 | <hololeap> | maybe if I stare at it hard enough it will click eventually? :p |
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| 21:46:30 | <hololeap> | unfortunately I don't think there's any shortcut to me getting an intuition for this. I'm just going to have to keep going with my exercise |
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| 21:49:05 | <mauke> | I cracked it |
| 21:49:08 | <mauke> | c = cons, n = nil |
| 21:49:21 | tomsmeding | was going to write the same thing at almost exactly the same time |
| 21:49:44 | <mauke> | x = current element, r = rest |
| 21:50:03 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: "l (\x r -> c (f x) r) n" ~= "case l of { (:) x r -> (:) (f x) r ; [] -> [] }" |
| 21:50:32 | <tomsmeding> | "replace [] by church-encoding" |
| 21:51:08 | <mauke> | I've never looked at LogicT before, but l is clearly (hah) a list builder |
| 21:51:23 | <tomsmeding> | if you see it you can't unsee it |
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| 21:51:42 | tomsmeding | would have put the nil case first though |
| 21:53:01 | <tomsmeding> | [] is really just a nondeterminism monad; CPSing doesn't change the semantics; and codensity is just for performance, right? So Logic is just a nondeterminism monad? |
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| 21:53:55 | <tomsmeding> | ah, the documentation doesn't fail us: |
| 21:54:01 | <tomsmeding> | > It's important to remember that Logic on its own is just a lawful list monad, behaving exactly as instance Monad []. |
| 21:54:04 | <tomsmeding> | (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/logict-0.8.2.0/docs/Control-Monad-Logic.html) |
| 21:54:41 | <monochrom> | Yes the church encoding and cps'ing etc are for performance. |
| 21:56:12 | <monochrom> | In the very same way, you could do algebraic effects with purely data, but you bring in delimited continuations for performance. For a beginner, using data is much less distracting. |
| 21:57:39 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: do you mean in the "free monad" style? |
| 21:57:43 | <monochrom> | Yeah! |
| 21:57:50 | <tomsmeding> | right, that works :) |
| 21:57:59 | <tomsmeding> | and is crappy slow |
| 21:58:14 | <tomsmeding> | but quite insightful in that the level of magic is very low |
| 22:00:01 | <monochrom> | The historical backdrop is also that when logict was written, GHC was even slower with data than today. (Today we have pointer tagging; back then we didn't have that.) |
| 22:03:19 | <Leary> | hololeap: It's simple if you approach these lambda encodings from their building blocks. I happen to have written about this recently, so I've edited it into a gist for you: https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/c25f39dff9ebcc726ba2ef1c7efbddb2 |
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| 22:04:16 | <hololeap> | neat, thanks |
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| 22:07:50 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: is that LFP correct? Should it perhaps be `LFP (forall r. (f r -> r) -> r)`? |
| 22:08:05 | <tomsmeding> | the expansion below of LFP (ListF a) seems to suggest that |
| 22:08:43 | <Leary> | Oops, yes. |
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| 22:09:14 | <Leary> | Fixed. |
| 22:09:15 | <monochrom> | Yeah LFP please :) |
| 22:09:18 | <monochrom> | haha pun! |
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| 22:10:48 | <tomsmeding> | (and then you can explain the type too: given a function to "summarise" a ListF a r into an r, collapse the whole list into a single r.) |
| 22:11:00 | <tomsmeding> | (given an algebra, cata the data structure.) |
| 22:11:43 | <tomsmeding> | and with a similar operational intuition, GFP is also not so miraculous any more :) |
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| 22:12:30 | <tomsmeding> | "what's the top-level constructor of your cute GFP f value? Oh, just apply the function to that s seed value." |
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| 22:13:02 | <tomsmeding> | "but then what's in this recursive position? I have an s there, not another constructor! Oh, just put that into the 's -> f s' function again" |
| 22:13:37 | <monochrom> | What I find miraculous, or at least mathematically interesting, is why the forall type contains no junk. (Starter: It requires parametricity.) |
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| 22:13:51 | <monochrom> | (or at least s/requires/is because of/) |
| 22:14:57 | <monochrom> | Or there is probably a way you can use a Yoneda lemma instead. |
| 22:15:58 | <tomsmeding> | parametricity is fun :) |
| 22:16:18 | <tomsmeding> | I never really fully grasped the theory around it though |
| 22:16:27 | <tomsmeding> | (in any case, it's bedtime for me, thanks for the fun) |
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| 22:21:01 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> tomsmeding: goodnight! Im also out, pushed it till i can barely see again.. |
| 22:22:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> If I'm building a simple snake game because I hate the AI generated version, should I be using TVar, MVar, or IORef for the keyPress listener? |
| 22:23:06 | <monochrom> | @tell tomsmeding https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/abs-type-param.html is how I motivate and derive (though not water-right) parametricity. I learned it from Reynolds, who began with the same consideration too. The Reynolds paper is "Types, abstraction, and parametric polymorphism". |
| 22:23:06 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 23:04:11 | → | weary-traveler joins (~user@user/user363627) |
| 23:05:38 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:09:42 | → | Tuplanolla joins (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 23:12:04 | → | ljdarj1 joins (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) |
| 23:12:26 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:16:11 | × | ljdarj quits (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 23:16:12 | ljdarj1 | is now known as ljdarj |
| 23:17:26 | → | alfiee joins (~alfiee@user/alfiee) |
| 23:22:02 | × | alfiee quits (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 23:23:41 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:27:00 | → | remexre joins (~remexre@user/remexre) |
| 23:30:23 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 23:31:19 | × | remexre quits (~remexre@user/remexre) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:40:19 | × | stiell quits (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:40:41 | → | stiell joins (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) |
| 23:40:45 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:45:44 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:49:22 | → | remexre joins (~remexre@user/remexre) |
| 23:52:02 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:54:03 | × | Googulator quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4074-e4c1-4d2b-93a1-bece.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 23:54:26 | → | Googulator joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4074-e4c1-4d2b-93a1-bece.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 23:56:49 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-02-18.