Logs on 2025-02-20 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:31:01 | ChanServ | sets mode +o litharge |
| 00:31:03 | litharge | sets mode -bo *!*@84.68.80.95 litharge |
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| 01:41:46 | pabs3 | is now known as Guest6241 |
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| 11:20:21 | <lisbeths> | whats wrong with this let x = (\x -> (x x))(\x -> x) |
| 11:21:49 | <ncf> | what's the type of the second x? |
| 11:21:55 | <lisbeths> | I do not know type theory |
| 11:22:04 | <lisbeths> | I would like these to be of anonymous type if possible |
| 11:22:19 | <ncf> | what's an anonymous type? |
| 11:22:26 | <lisbeths> | a wildcard type |
| 11:22:44 | <ncf> | i'm afraid haskell doesn't have those |
| 11:22:58 | <lisbeths> | what about a type that accepts a type and a lambda that accepts a type |
| 11:24:38 | <mange> | Haskell requires each expression to have a type. If we try to give a type to \x -> (x x) then we have the type of "x" as "a -> b" (because it's being used as a function), but we pass "x" to "x", so "a" is the type of "x", which is itself "a -> b". This constructs an infinite type which is no good. |
| 11:24:51 | <lisbeths> | so hwo do I apply lambdas together |
| 11:25:36 | <mange> | What are you trying to do? In the easiest case, just don't call a lambda with itself. Like, "let x = (\x -> (x 1))(\x -> x)" should be fine. |
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| 11:26:07 | <lisbeths> | what would applying x to 1 do? |
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| 11:26:26 | <lisbeths> | is that the de brujins index 1 |
| 11:27:03 | <int-e> | why are you mixing names and de Bruijn indices |
| 11:27:53 | <mange> | I'm very confused. What are you actually trying to do? |
| 11:28:15 | <mange> | I fear that we've got an XY problem here. |
| 11:28:22 | <int-e> | > let x = (\x -> (x 1))(\x -> x) in x |
| 11:28:23 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 11:28:52 | <int-e> | (The fact that this makes sense in Haskell, the main topic of this channel, probably adds to the confusion.) |
| 11:28:52 | <lisbeths> | ah well that isnt what I asked but thats okay |
| 11:29:20 | <lisbeths> | do you define identity as 1 in haskell? |
| 11:29:50 | <mange> | Are you working in a pure lambda calculus? |
| 11:29:54 | <lisbeths> | yeah |
| 11:30:31 | <mange> | Right. In that case, can you tell me: what was wrong with (\x -> (x x))(\x -> x)? As in, what caused you to suspect there was something wrong with it? |
| 11:30:59 | <mange> | In an untyped lambda calculus, (\x -> (x x))(\x -> x) is just the identity function. |
| 11:31:13 | <lisbeths> | doesnt compile on my machine |
| 11:31:19 | <mange> | In Haskell? |
| 11:31:42 | <lisbeths> | ghci: let x = (\x -> (x x))(\x -> x) |
| 11:31:53 | <mange> | Sure, but Haskell is not *untyped* lambda calculus. |
| 11:32:00 | <lisbeths> | indeed |
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| 11:32:18 | <mange> | That expression requires an infinite type, which Haskell does not permit. |
| 11:32:24 | <lisbeths> | oh |
| 11:32:35 | <mange> | So what's wrong is "(\x -> (x x)) is not a valid Haskell function". |
| 11:32:37 | <lisbeths> | how do I code in pure lambda calculus in haskell? |
| 11:33:28 | <lisbeths> | if there is no way to do it then I can use a krivine machine instead |
| 11:33:47 | <mange> | Haskell is a typed lambda calculus. If you want to work with an untyped lambda calculus you should not use Haskell. I don't know what else is syntactically similar, but Scheme is an untyped lambda calculus. |
| 11:34:00 | <merijn> | lisbeths: You can work around the lack of infinite types by having a newtype referencing itself |
| 11:34:09 | <lisbeths> | do you know any purely functional languages with infinite recursion that are untyped |
| 11:34:36 | <lisbeths> | ok if you think that it would be better for me to do that than to use a different languag then I can do that |
| 11:35:16 | <int-e> | there's the alluring but quite useless newtype L = Abs { app :: L -> L } with k = L (\x -> L (\y -> x)), s = L (\f -> L (\g -> L ( |
| 11:35:35 | <int-e> | there's the alluring but quite useless newtype L = Abs { app :: L -> L } with k = L (\x -> L (\y -> x)), s = L (\f -> L (\g -> L (\x -> f `app` x `app` (g `app` x)))) |
| 11:35:38 | <mange> | I'm not familiar with anything that is both "purely functional" and "untyped". Scheme is not purely functional (it is functional, just with impurity). |
| 11:36:17 | <int-e> | err, all those `L` data constructors should be `Abs` instead. |
| 11:36:51 | <lisbeths> | well the good news is I can compile to this L language so the boilerplate isnt an issue |
| 11:37:12 | <int-e> | It's alluring because it does what you ask -- it implements the untyped lambda calculus (closed terms only) as higher order abstract syntax. It's useless because there's no inspection. |
| 11:37:13 | <lisbeths> | it is just a matter of if you think I should use haskell this way or use a dfiferetn way or else a different language |
| 11:37:33 | <mange> | I still don't know what you're actually doing, so I can't possibly advise you on language. |
| 11:37:35 | <lisbeths> | inspection is the typechecking/proofchecking right? |
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| 11:37:53 | <lisbeths> | uh well I am running unknown programs that have no side effects in pure lambda calculus |
| 11:37:59 | <lisbeths> | so I dont know what lambdas im gonna get |
| 11:38:10 | <int-e> | No, inspection as in "print the normal form of this as a human-readable lambda term if there is a normal form" |
| 11:38:29 | <lisbeths> | oh this is fine as long as I can convert L kestrel to 1 and L kite to 0 |
| 11:38:38 | <lisbeths> | I am not expecting a strong IO library to be available |
| 11:39:36 | <lisbeths> | haskell will recursively grab 1 and 0 from the L machine and store them in arrays of 8 bits and map them to a function that turns those 8 bits into characters that is no prblem |
| 11:39:44 | <int-e> | lisbeths: Well, you can't. |
| 11:40:02 | <lisbeths> | oh well if its possible for information to exit the L system then I cant necessarily use L? |
| 11:40:14 | <lisbeths> | can I have L call a function that returns 1 or call a function taht returns 0 |
| 11:41:34 | <int-e> | No, all arguments and results have type L. |
| 11:42:03 | <lisbeths> | so what if I have it be a tuple of type L and another type |
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| 11:42:30 | <lisbeths> | yeah heh heh I think I am grasping what you're laying down |
| 11:42:41 | <int-e> | (Well, there's a path to madness here that starts when you use observable bottoms (exceptions) and IO to discern which of them gets evaluated first.) |
| 11:43:12 | <lisbeths> | I write my lambdas in such a way that order of evaluation doesnt affect the algorithm |
| 11:43:33 | <lisbeths> | really just a subset of lambda calculus |
| 11:43:52 | <mange> | Even if you get this working, is your plan to compile your input into a Haskell program which you then compile+run? Or are you going to assemble them in memory and evaluate them? |
| 11:44:24 | <lisbeths> | I am going to beta reduce one very large lambda and assume that the user has given me a lambda that will halt |
| 11:45:00 | <lisbeths> | to beat my current system I need to be able to fill at least 2 gigabytes of ram with lambdas |
| 11:45:08 | <mange> | But what we're discussing right now is converting it into Haskell syntax, isn't it? Which mean invoking the Haskell compiler to evaluate it? |
| 11:45:22 | <lisbeths> | uh yes I can write the compiler in haskell |
| 11:45:36 | <lisbeths> | the theing I am compilng from is my own notation for lambda calculus |
| 11:46:52 | <lisbeths> | if your advice is not to do this I wont do it I can use another tool |
| 11:47:02 | <lisbeths> | I have this machien called a krivine machine which will work for me just fine as well |
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| 11:47:48 | <lisbeths> | additionally there are likely machines like krivine machines already implemented in haskell that are designed specifically to compute large pure lambdas |
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| 13:46:33 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> is the only way to get getCh in Haskell through C FFI? |
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| 13:48:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> hmmm, getch is MS specific |
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| 13:56:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> bleh, haskeline it is |
| 13:56:40 | <enikar> | getch is a legacy function from borland C, iirc |
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| 14:03:05 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> ugh, it still doesn't do what i want, which is to grab key presses (without ugly unbuffered getChar hacks) |
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| 14:06:03 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> erm, grab arrow key presses |
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| 14:59:14 | <mauke> | if you're running in a terminal, there are no key presses, only bytes |
| 14:59:19 | <mauke> | which you have to decode |
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| 17:06:12 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> @irc_libera.chat_lisbeths:kf8nh.com you might be interested in https://github.com/chatziko/lci if you want to mess around with the untyped lambda calculus |
| 17:08:02 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Oh they left, that's the most annoying feature of IRC lol |
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| 17:11:46 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Liamzee if you're still here, vty is kinda like ncurses for Haskell, which abstracts the process of working with a terminal https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vty |
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| 17:15:09 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> I'd assume that there's smaller packages that just focus on key decoding, or if you want easier, generic UI, brick (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/brick) is pretty good |
| 17:16:10 | <geekosaur> | ansi-terminal, which I think recently-ish gained Windows compatibility |
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| 18:38:30 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> ansi-terminal-game is in between those |
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| 18:38:41 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> morning all |
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| 18:40:08 | <monochrom> | ohai |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-02-20.