Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2025-02-21 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:38 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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06:20:50 <talismanick> Anyone else having trouble with fourmolu's trailing-section-operators option? It acts as if it's set to true, no matter if I edit fixities, comment them out, comment other options, etc
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06:20:51 <talismanick> https://pastebin.com/T6rPZTWN
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06:38:51 <talismanick> well, it works when I run fourmolu from the CLI rather than LSP
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08:34:56 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> So profunctors are ways to assign an object to maps between objects. If so, why is the profunctor domain a product with a contravariant category? Wouldn't a product of two covariant categories have been enough?
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08:42:12 <dminuoso> thirdofmay18081814goya: It is not about being "enough" or "more". Being contravariant is not an upgrade.
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08:43:27 <dminuoso> I can give you an (incomplete, but perhaps motivating) reason for wherer the contravariance comes from.
08:43:39 <dminuoso> If we take a Haskell centric approach, then profunctors generalize (->)
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08:43:55 <dminuoso> And it so happens that `(->) is contravariant in its first argument, but covariant in its second argument.
08:45:14 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> i.e. "lmap" is contravariant but "rmap" is covariant?
08:45:31 <dminuoso> Yes.
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08:45:44 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah I see, ok this is an extremely helpful example, ty!
08:51:11 <dminuoso> thirdofmay18081814goya: So a handwaving description is to describe profunctors (and (->) as a specific instance) as sort of "transformations", where you have some notion of "input" and "output"
08:51:45 <dminuoso> It so happens that everything Ive said applies to category theory as well, though it takes a bit more precision to make this connection.
08:52:14 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> right, "lmap" is "given a connection to an earlier input, you can create the current input"
08:52:32 <dminuoso> It may also help to see some examples of what this generalizes to
08:52:49 <dminuoso> `Kleisli m` is a really good example
08:53:21 <dminuoso> Say `a -> IO b` is something that you too can see as an (effectul) transformation
08:53:56 <dminuoso> Except because of how our typesystem works we have to make it a `newtype Kleisli m a b = Kleisli { runKleisli a -> m b }` and call `Kleisli IO` a profunctor.
08:54:36 <dminuoso> But it's really just about `a -> IO b`. And it so happens that for every Monad m, `Kleisli m` is such a profunctor.
08:54:54 <dminuoso> So this starts to generalize even more.
08:55:28 <dminuoso> Because at the end, even in `a -> IO b` you can map over the input, and the eventual output of the IO action.
08:55:45 <dminuoso> Just like you can map over inputs (contravariantly) and outputs (covariantly) in `a -> b`
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08:57:11 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> this point of view was extremely helpful, ty! the definition makes perfect sense now
09:01:51 <dminuoso> Ah let me make one correction, of course for Kleisli technically we only need `Functor`.
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09:02:50 <dminuoso> Im not entirely sure why both `Star` and `Kleisli` exist.
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09:04:38 <dminuoso> My feeling is that Kleisli uses `liftM` in a bunch of places, perhaps because there may be edge cases where it may be faster than a generalized `fmap`?
09:04:45 <dminuoso> And Star generalizes to arbitrary Functor?
09:04:52 <dminuoso> I'm not sure.
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09:21:35 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Anyone seen the person behind https://github.com/l-Shane-l/tiny-wlhs around? I seem to recall seeing them either here or in the matrix room. Im thinking about just hard switching to it, to force myself to fix any bugs i run into :)
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09:24:18 <ski> thirdofmay18081814goya : read-only view of a mutable cell can be made covariant, write-only view can be made contravariant -- if we allow attaching a post- / pre- processing step to them, respectively. ditto for read-end and write-end of a concurrent channel
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09:27:00 <ski> (in Concurrent ML (library model for concurrency, available for some ML systems), you can construct "events", which will trigger upon certain conditions. you can syncrhonize/await on such an event. given an event, you can attach a post-processing step to it, to be applied to the generated value, when the event triggers. this basically forms a monad (so covariant functor), iirc)
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10:40:33 <bjarki> would algebraic effect handlers make sense in Haskell?
10:41:15 <Rembane> bjarki: Aren't they already there, or have I misunderstood something? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/effectful
10:41:19 <merijn> bjarki: Well, there's approximately 50 different libraries trying that, so probably :p
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10:46:46 <bjarki> Thank you!
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11:04:21 <Rembane> I wonder what they'll do with their newfound knowledge.
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12:00:15 <haskellbridge> <l0negamer> Hi Haskell IRC (and Matrix!). I've posted on the discourse about the monad of no return proposal, and it would be good to get feedback, community input, and/or interest in implementation on the post. You can find it here: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/monad-of-no-return-next-steps/11443?u=l0negamer
12:01:52 <Rembane> \o/
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17:09:45 <f8> yo this is something very cool just joined the irc channel using libre chat and hexchat
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17:13:05 <f8> how to communicate on this
17:13:09 <f8> ?
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17:15:04 <haskellbridge> <me7itamen> hmm just text
17:15:05 <EvanR> by waiting over 1 minute before rage quitting
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17:50:40 <int-e> Well, IRC is dead, as we all know. :-P
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18:36:51 <Rembane> The good kind of dead.
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18:38:26 <JuanDaugherty> counterfactuals are good, apparently
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18:48:21 <Rembane> JuanDaugherty: How are they good?
18:48:50 <JuanDaugherty> u tell me, it's ur assertion
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18:49:23 <JuanDaugherty> (what 'apparently' signifies in appostiion)
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18:55:08 <Rembane> Oh. It was a comment to "Well, IRC is dead, as we all know. :-P"
18:55:37 <JuanDaugherty> i know
18:56:11 <JuanDaugherty> bonk bonk on the heads of the stupids
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18:59:08 <JuanDaugherty> https://netsplit.de/networks/top100.php maybe dead means the ignorant masses dont want none
18:59:26 <dolio> That would be a good kind of dead.
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21:48:46 <yin> i wish it was less dead tbh
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22:47:20 <haskellbridge> <sm> it's more dispersed now
22:47:34 <haskellbridge> <sm> maybe Pidgin can integrate all the chats again these days ?
22:48:15 <haskellbridge> <sm> +(https://www.pidgin.im)
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22:48:39 <haskellbridge> <sm> or https://www.beeper.com
22:48:55 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Beeper is just standardish matrix
22:49:14 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> All of their bridges are open source actually
22:49:21 <talismanick> When checking the code for derived instances via `ghc -ddump-deriv`, it can be a chore to search-replace noise like namespace qualifiers and autogenerated line noise variable names
22:49:29 <haskellbridge> <sm> ...with all the gnarly bridges configured and maintained for you
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22:49:51 <talismanick> which, if I were running `ghc` normally to desugar, would be a problem solved by calling out to `ghc-core` instead
22:49:55 <talismanick> as https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10693638/how-to-dump-ghc-simplifier-output-in-human-readable-form suggests
22:50:11 <talismanick> but I don't see how to run ghc-core with `-ddump-deriv`
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22:52:06 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> sm eeh its not _that_ to maintain. The facebook bridge fell apart for me because i ignored it for 6 months, but the discord one has been 0% maintenance for the last 2 years
22:52:12 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Anyway, offtopic
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22:53:09 <monochrom> Does -dsuppress-all help?
22:53:26 <talismanick> monochrom: I was about to say that -dsuppress-module-prefixes -dsuppress-uniques didn't work lol
22:53:31 <talismanick> let me try with -dsuppress-all
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22:54:46 <talismanick> hm, prints nothing
22:55:03 <talismanick> I have to go now, but I'll have to dig deeper later
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23:00:38 <haskellbridge> <sm> magic_rb that's cool. I notice "Beeper is free to use, with an optional paid subscription." - that also sounds pretty cool I must say
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23:01:34 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> I havent tried beeper personally. I wouldnt want to trust a 3rd party with my messaging
23:01:46 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Especially if im bridging everything through it.
23:02:04 <haskellbridge> <sm> how many bridges are you running, and where are they - on a vps ?
23:02:12 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> But i dont have anything against beeper, so i mention them
23:02:55 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> sm: Currently 2, used to do 3 but then facebook and signal fell apart because beeper did a complete rewrite and i just couldnt be bothered
23:03:20 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Facebook i dont use anymore and signal is a bad idea for security. WhatsApp needs an active phone anyway, VMs get you banned
23:04:23 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> As for the hardware im running it on a full server with 80GB (my sticks keep failing, used to be 96, ill have to get new ones) with 2 cpus, 6 cores per of 3.1GHz (3rd gen ish intel xeon)
23:05:10 <haskellbridge> <sm> wow.. is that much power needed ?
23:05:24 <haskellbridge> <sm> * ram
23:05:50 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> But your main bottleneck if you do run this wont be the bridges but rather the matrix homeserver. You have 5 options, synapse - heavy, reliable, dendrite - light, broken beyond belief, conduit - light, slow progress, conduwuit - light, possibly toxic maintainer, grapevine - light and i dunno
23:06:14 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Synapse i in python, dendrite in go, conduit, conduwuit and grapevine are forks of each other, all in rust
23:06:46 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Im running synapse because i have the hardware and its the most reliable and drama free. Conduit got forked at least twice over drama
23:06:54 <haskellbridge> <sm> when do we get the rock solid haskell homeserver...
23:07:49 <geekosaur> I've offered a couple of times but HF seems uninterested
23:07:50 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> And no you dont need as much power as i have, especially if you dont run synapse. But even with it im giving it too much memory, its possible to tune and run on just 4GB of memory, i just threw more ram at it because i couldnt be arsed to tune it
23:08:06 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Writing a matrix HS is insanely difficult
23:08:19 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> And tbh i dont think haskell would solve much
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23:09:30 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> As in, i dont think there is a tangible benefit to using haskell for a HS, most of the complexity lies in implementing the whole spec, the stateres algorithm and actually making the internal data model fast
23:09:33 <geekosaur> oh, misunderstood. no I'm not interested in writing one
23:09:39 <geekosaur> in Haskell or any other language
23:09:40 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Ah
23:10:03 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Saying to run one ig, sorry, i see RIIH everywhere these days lol
23:10:07 <geekosaur> Matris protocol is nuts
23:10:38 <haskellbridge> <sm> it could be a good reference / research implementation. In future, auto translate it to rust or something for better efficiency
23:10:52 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> sm if you decide to try to run your own HS, whichever you choose. Feel free to ping me for help
23:11:29 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Pretty sure haskell is fast enough. The best way to speed up synapse which is in python, is to speed up the database, postgres
23:11:53 <haskellbridge> <sm> everyone struggles to write a matrix server it seems, haskell should be among the best languages for the writing/maintaining part at least (not necessarily the efficiency/operating at scale part)
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23:12:39 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Im gonna focus on my haskell filesystem for now, then maybe something else in haskell
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23:13:49 <haskellbridge> <sm> geekosaur: Complex ?
23:14:35 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> The state res is the worst, as in, the way possibly divergent event graphs are merged
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23:15:04 <geekosaur> byzantine
23:15:05 <haskellbridge> <sm> tricky algorithms should be our bread and butter
23:15:10 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Say you have 8 HSs in a room, 4 split off for 4 days but the users in them can still communicate between themselves
23:15:19 <haskellbridge> <sm> I hear state resolution algorithm v3 is coming
23:15:26 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Then after they all rejoin, stateres happens where it has to merge again
23:15:40 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> And that part is the buggiest part of matrix afaik
23:16:15 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> If you hear "split brain" its a stateres bug, where room state permanently diverges and different servers see and advertise different state.
23:16:43 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Effect is that people might not see each others messages. You might get rejoined into a room you left, because the leave event disappears
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23:17:46 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> And other fun things, dunno much about the actual impl, just what i heard while hanging out in matrix dev adjacent rooms
23:18:18 <haskellbridge> <sm> Yes.. I look forward to v3. There's a nifty state visualiser now which must be a help
23:18:35 <haskellbridge> <sm> I imagine another hard part of building a matrix server is the cryptography, eg availability of the right good libraries.
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23:19:07 <haskellbridge> <sm> And another part must be the amount of data to be managed, though you could restrict that
23:20:26 <haskellbridge> <sm> To be honest, with bridges out of the picture I rarely see state resolution / split brain issues on matrix. (I see it more often on irc, or used to)
23:20:31 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Crypto is largely a client side thing only, https is ofc server side, but e2ee is completely client side
23:20:44 <haskellbridge> <sm> oh interesting, that's good news
23:21:08 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> And for e2ee youll have to bind against vodozemac which is in rust
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23:21:40 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Im planning to try to shoehorn vodozemac into ement.el (emacs matrix client) to get e2ee
23:23:21 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Anyway, sleep time
23:24:29 <haskellbridge> <sm> see you
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23:35:47 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> lol
23:35:49 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://spectrum.ieee.org/reversible-computing
23:35:54 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> sounds eerily familiar
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All times are in UTC on 2025-02-21.