Logs on 2025-03-02 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:19:03 | <Inst> | if it makes you happy, Rust's ergonomics is, at least at first glance, nightmarish |
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| 02:20:15 | <Inst> | the match is objectively worse than Haskell's because types don't have capitalization requirements, so if you remove a variant without prefixing the namespace, it just turns into a catchall on the pattern match |
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| 02:35:16 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> not to worry, someone just released an emacs package to hide all the annoying parts of rust syntax :) |
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| 02:51:39 | <yin> | kaol: I recently worked on a project which used both Graphics.Gloss.Data.Color and Data.Colour. Fun times |
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| 02:55:40 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oh, check this out: an as-yet-unexplained mystery about less supporting only --use-colour https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/issues/2335 |
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| 03:02:51 | <vicfred> | what is this haskellbridge bridging to? |
| 03:03:33 | <mauke> | matrix |
| 03:04:03 | <mauke> | more specifically, #haskell-irc:matrix.org |
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| 03:33:32 | <spew> | I thought matrix bridges got banned |
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| 03:36:07 | <dmoerner> | only imperative ones |
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| 03:40:03 | <geekosaur> | the big mother bridge got banned, smaller ones are okay |
| 03:41:26 | <mauke> | https://libera.chat/guides/matrix#can-i-still-connect-with-matrix |
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| 09:23:20 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: somehow, while reloading and shadowing in ghci, finalizers of the earlier values _do_ get called. So apparently yesterday's conclusion of shadowing not making ghci forget the previous value may be incorrect |
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| 10:54:12 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: hmm maybe you got thwarted by `it` then? see https://paste.tomsmeding.com/pgn6a561 |
| 10:54:34 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: I made sude to evaluate something else in between |
| 10:54:51 | <tomsmeding> | in fact, the act of shadowing requires it ;) |
| 11:01:57 | <tomsmeding> | ah, `:r` seems to destroy bound variables |
| 11:02:02 | <tomsmeding> | so that's what did the trick, I think |
| 11:04:24 | <int-e> | Hah from the way you phrased the question the other day I thought you knew that. |
| 11:07:22 | <tomsmeding> | I may have known it at some point :p |
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| 16:02:29 | <tomsmeding> | does any of the old-timers here know how long ircbrowse actually ran under Chris Done |
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| 16:04:09 | <tomsmeding> | the current instance has almost 4 years' worth of libera.chat logs, and the database is falling over |
| 16:04:27 | <tomsmeding> | the batch import is O(n) in the total number of _existing_ events in a room |
| 16:04:43 | <tomsmeding> | I was too lazy to fix things so far but imports are starting to take MINUTES |
| 16:04:54 | <tomsmeding> | and everything is slowly breaking down |
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| 17:29:04 | <tomsmeding> | ah it's not quite so bad as it seemed, it's mostly taking long because someone is spamming ircbrowse with requests |
| 17:29:22 | <tomsmeding> | welcome to the AI age, server administrator edition |
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| 17:36:45 | <yushyin> | My servers also get ddos attacked by these stupid ai scrapping bots constantly ... |
| 17:37:21 | <tomsmeding> | mostly I care little, but ircbrowse generates HTML in haskell and does database queries for everything, so some spam actually has an impact on performance |
| 17:37:38 | <tomsmeding> | a big impact |
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| 17:39:08 | <tomsmeding> | it's off-and-on: sometimes there's a spam of incoming requests, other times it's completely quiet; this strongly suggests web-enabled generative AI |
| 17:39:35 | <tomsmeding> | but then the requests are coming from a large set of IPs and with varying user agents |
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| 17:41:34 | <tomsmeding> | geoip points them to all over the place, too |
| 17:43:20 | <tomsmeding> | I'd like to not have to put this behind cloudflare |
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| 17:44:45 | Digitteknohippie | is now known as Digit |
| 17:47:52 | <tomsmeding> | this is what that looks like https://tomsmeding.com/ss/get/tomsmeding/PezWN1 |
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| 17:48:54 | <tomsmeding> | I guess the conclusion is: apologies all if ircbrowse is slow or non-responsive, I'm being DOS'ed |
| 17:51:55 | <yushyin> | Yes, pretty much the same deal for my services |
| 17:59:19 | <tomsmeding> | I'm even getting blasts of "too many open files" on http accept |
| 17:59:40 | <tomsmeding> | are these people actually so incompetent |
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| 18:27:52 | <monochrom> | This is wishful thinking but it makes me happy to believe: Yes bad people are dumb. >:) |
| 18:28:34 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: it almost seems so, doesn't it? Surely that's wishful thinking |
| 18:28:56 | <tomsmeding> | I'm not even sure these are bad people per se, though they're certainly dumb |
| 18:30:35 | <monochrom> | The next sentence has data support but clearly has a non-survival bias: In all caught cases of homework/exam cheating, the student acted dumbly. :D |
| 18:30:55 | <tomsmeding> | that observation applies also to spam email |
| 18:31:00 | <monochrom> | "proved by data and logic" |
| 18:31:11 | <tomsmeding> | and it always makes me uncomfortable precisely because of that non-surivership bias |
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| 18:32:23 | <monochrom> | Oh spam-and-scam emails is different. The experts say that they look dumb to us because we are not vulnerable, but they look true and convincing to vulnerable people. |
| 18:33:40 | <monochrom> | Or in other words, the phrasings that triggers us to think "this is sus" is precisely what triggers the victims to think "this is true". |
| 18:34:11 | <tomsmeding> | it's not just phrasings, it's strange spelling mistakes, unicode lookalike letter substitutes (that are not actually particularly lookalike) |
| 18:34:33 | <monochrom> | I think those are just for evading bayesian spam filters. |
| 18:34:42 | <tomsmeding> | if that is to avoid spam filters then they are dumb because it's absolutely trivial to detect precisely this |
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| 18:39:10 | <tomsmeding> | somehow these dumb people also have access to a shit ton of IPs; do they run a botnet? |
| 18:40:26 | <tomsmeding> | here's a plot of the number of requests per minute for the past ~4 days to this VPS: https://tomsmeding.com/vang/niwHys/plot.png (it also runs one other service besides ircbrowse, but the majority is ircbrowse traffic) |
| 18:41:18 | <tomsmeding> | those huge spikes are ircbrowse spam traffic; if I collect all IPs that appear in the minutes with >500 requests in this dataset, then I get 112249 events with 105293 unique IPs |
| 18:42:01 | <monochrom> | On the bright side, we know that Haskell is mainstream when bad actors care about Haskell websites. >:) |
| 18:42:15 | <tomsmeding> | of which only 124 are IPv6, so they have roughly 100000 unique IPv4??? |
| 18:42:52 | <monochrom> | They commandeer normal people's Windows PCs so yeah 100000 is peanuts. |
| 18:42:53 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: I'm not sure if "care" is the right word :p |
| 18:43:14 | <tomsmeding> | right, a botnet is what that's called |
| 18:43:59 | <tomsmeding> | but then I don't understand it any more; is this AI training or inference, and if so, why are they using a botnet? Would be interesting if that gets out into the public |
| 18:44:22 | <tomsmeding> | and if it _isn't_ training an AI model, then what on Earth do they want with ircbrowse logs |
| 18:44:29 | <monochrom> | This is why I am upset at normal people's "I have nothing of value on my PC so I won't patch I don't care". Dude, you are being a bad citizen, you are like anti-vaxxers. |
| 18:45:41 | <tomsmeding> | you can counter that argument even more easily by saying "perhaps not on your PC, but surely you have at least one other LAN-connected device with stuff of value on it?" |
| 18:46:01 | <monochrom> | Oh then conspiracy theory: China/Iran/Russia thinks that Haskell can help the US become great again so they target Haskell websites to slow us down. >:D |
| 18:46:10 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
| 18:46:29 | <yin> | i have surrendered to cloudflare a long time ago |
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| 18:52:02 | <yin> | monochrom: MAHA theory is entertaining but Haskell is one of the least american programming languages in prominence |
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| 19:28:11 | <tomsmeding> | reverse-engineering haskeline has taught me that to include ANSI escapes in the prompt, you have to terminate them by \STX: only then will haskeline recognise them as zero-width. Is this documented anywhere? |
| 19:29:57 | <monochrom> | > ('\STX', '\STX' == '\]') |
| 19:29:59 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:22: error: |
| 19:29:59 | <lambdabot> | lexical error in string/character literal at character ']' |
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| 19:30:16 | <monochrom> | > ('\STX') |
| 19:30:17 | <lambdabot> | '\STX' |
| 19:30:22 | <monochrom> | :( |
| 19:30:28 | <monochrom> | > ord ('\STX') |
| 19:30:29 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 19:30:35 | <tomsmeding> | do you mean ctrl-] ? |
| 19:30:52 | <tomsmeding> | my terminal passes 0x1d on ctrl-] |
| 19:30:53 | <geekosaur> | I believe that's actually from readline |
| 19:31:07 | <tomsmeding> | iirc readline considers anything between \[ ... \] to be zero-width |
| 19:31:24 | <geekosaur> | cf. https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/734343/ansi-escape-sequences-in-ps1-cause-incorrect-length-calculation |
| 19:32:01 | <tomsmeding> | that's zsh, which has its own magic |
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| 19:32:54 | <tomsmeding> | https://superuser.com/a/301355 "The bash-specific \[ and \] are in fact translated to \001 and \002 at y.tab.c:7640." |
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| 19:33:56 | <tomsmeding> | so perhaps bash accepts the same bytes, but the \[ \] parsing _is_ bash-specific? |
| 19:34:42 | <monochrom> | Oh interesting. |
| 19:35:33 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps this? https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/bash.git/tree/y.tab.c#n8330 |
| 19:36:14 | <tomsmeding> | I would consider all this together insufficient documentation for haskeline to accept \STX :p |
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| 19:38:43 | <int-e> | there's https://github.com/haskell/haskeline/wiki/ControlSequencesInPrompt |
| 19:39:14 | <tomsmeding> | it would be nice if that's also in the haddocks. :) |
| 19:39:39 | <tomsmeding> | I'll make a small PR |
| 19:39:39 | <int-e> | Which I found because https://github.com/haskell/haskeline/issues/72 mentions a wiki :P |
| 19:40:08 | <int-e> | So yeah I'd consider this hard to discover. |
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| 19:41:20 | <int-e> | Well, I guess the README points there too. |
| 19:41:53 | <tomsmeding> | the readme which is not shown on hackage :p |
| 19:42:06 | <int-e> | Still... nobody uses github wikis. It's not a thing. |
| 19:42:27 | <tomsmeding> | I'm completely fine with github wikis; ace.js, the editor that the playground uses, has a whole bunch of info on a github wiki |
| 19:42:55 | <tomsmeding> | but point there! If the entry point to your software is a git repository, I might look around there, but if it's a haskell library, I expect to be pointed to stuff from hackage :) |
| 19:43:25 | <int-e> | https://github.com/haskell/haskeline/blob/master/haskeline.cabal#L37 ...oh no README.md there |
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| 19:44:47 | <int-e> | (If README.md was included, would hackage pick it up?) |
| 19:50:06 | <monochrom> | I think yes. |
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| 19:56:46 | <tomsmeding> | > However, the prompt string must indicate the end of each escape sequence, since there's no way for Haskeline to detect it automatically. |
| 19:56:59 | <tomsmeding> | yes, there is, ANSI sequences have a well-defined set of terminator characters |
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| 19:57:49 | <tomsmeding> | https://github.com/haskell/haskeline/pull/197 |
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| 20:05:58 | <monochrom> | Perhaps s/no way to detect/no way I add extra logic to detect/ :) |
| 20:06:19 | <tomsmeding> | likely :) |
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| 20:07:51 | <geekosaur> | sadly I think there's still stuff like emacs terminal that doesn't use ANSI |
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| 20:13:54 | <geekosaur> | (if you can use ANSI I've even detected them in simple shell scripts. ANSI standardization was a boon, once most older terminals died out) |
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| 22:31:11 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Is there a tool to generate version bounds from a stack package set? |
| 22:31:30 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Cabal gen-bounds generates something wayy too conservative |
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| 22:33:34 | <monochrom> | I thought stack package set were even more conservative. |
| 22:33:53 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I think we're thinking of conservative in different directions (= |
| 22:34:30 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I mean that cabal generates bounds with versions that are more recent than the ones in the latest package set for that ghc |
| 22:34:39 | <monochrom> | No? stack is effectively like "base ======= 4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0" whereas cabal is merely "base >= 4.0.0.0 && < 4.1" |
| 22:35:14 | <monochrom> | OK sure but "base ======== 3.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9" is not "less conservative". |
| 22:35:57 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Yeah, and cabal looks "which version of 'vector' can this base work with" and picks the latest possible, when in reality you can relax it and pick an older one |
| 22:36:58 | <monochrom> | There is a program that can perform multiple build tests and relax bounds for you. I forgot its name. |
| 22:37:37 | <monochrom> | (of course, relax bounds only when the build test succeeds) |
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| 22:39:08 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Ok, I'll try to google this |
| 22:39:32 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> For now, since I don't have many deps, I ctrl-f-ed by hand from the stackage webpage |
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| 23:59:17 | <jackdk> | I just use `cabal gen-bounds` and raise the upper bounds if the newer versions work (often pushing metadata revisions). |
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