Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2025-03-03 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:06:29 ggb_ joins (a62ffbaf4f@2a03:6000:1812:100::3ac)
00:07:17 × litharge quits (litharge@libera/bot/litharge) (*.net *.split)
00:07:18 × jmcantrell quits (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (*.net *.split)
00:07:18 × xstill_ quits (xstill@fimu/xstill) (*.net *.split)
00:07:18 × fp quits (~Thunderbi@87-92-155-24.rev.dnainternet.fi) (*.net *.split)
00:07:18 × Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (*.net *.split)
00:07:18 × peutri quits (~peutri@bobo.desast.re) (*.net *.split)
00:07:18 × euphores quits (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (*.net *.split)
00:07:18 × dolio quits (~dolio@130.44.140.168) (*.net *.split)
00:07:18 × sarna quits (~sarna@d168-237.icpnet.pl) (*.net *.split)
00:07:18 × a_fantom quits (~fantom@2.219.56.221) (*.net *.split)
00:07:18 × tomku quits (~tomku@user/tomku) (*.net *.split)
00:07:18 × ThePenguin quits (~ThePengui@cust-95-80-24-166.csbnet.se) (*.net *.split)
00:07:18 × JSharp quits (sid4580@user/JSharp) (*.net *.split)
00:07:19 × Natch quits (~natch@c-92-34-7-158.bbcust.telenor.se) (*.net *.split)
00:07:19 × igemnace quits (~igemnace@user/igemnace) (*.net *.split)
00:07:19 × ezzieyguywuf quits (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (*.net *.split)
00:07:19 × cptaffe quits (~cptaffe@user/cptaffe) (*.net *.split)
00:07:19 × tabaqui quits (~root@167.71.80.236) (*.net *.split)
00:07:19 × lyxia quits (~lyxia@poisson.chat) (*.net *.split)
00:07:19 × dibblego quits (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (*.net *.split)
00:07:19 × Philonous quits (~Philonous@user/philonous) (*.net *.split)
00:07:19 × thaumavorio quits (~thaumavor@thaumavor.io) (*.net *.split)
00:07:19 × down200 quits (~down200@shell.lug.mtu.edu) (*.net *.split)
00:07:19 × teesquare_ quits (~teesquare@user/teesquare) (*.net *.split)
00:07:19 × constxd quits (~constxd@user/constxd) (*.net *.split)
00:07:20 × Dykam quits (Dykam@dykam.nl) (*.net *.split)
00:07:20 × red-snail quits (~red-snail@static.151.210.203.116.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split)
00:07:20 × aku quits (aku@65.108.245.241) (*.net *.split)
00:07:20 × int-e quits (~noone@int-e.eu) (*.net *.split)
00:07:20 × mjrosenb quits (~mjrosenb@70.18.10.118) (*.net *.split)
00:07:20 × krei-se quits (~krei-se@p200300f1cf3232002411defffe902013.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (*.net *.split)
00:07:20 × GdeVolpiano quits (~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) (*.net *.split)
00:07:20 × rembo10 quits (~rembo10@main.remulis.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:20 × xff0x quits (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:d598:ae0d:2d4c:9e23) (*.net *.split)
00:07:20 × eL_Bart0 quits (eL_Bart0@dietunichtguten.org) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × Katarushisu quits (~Katarushi@finc-20-b2-v4wan-169598-cust1799.vm7.cable.virginm.net) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × samhh quits (7569f027cf@2a03:6000:1812:100::e4) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × bheesham quits (3aa22d8375@2a03:6000:1812:100::e40) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × JoelMcCracken quits (5ea8252fbb@2a03:6000:1812:100::10e3) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × eso quits (a0662dfd5e@2a03:6000:1812:100::1266) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × probie quits (cc0b34050a@user/probie) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × henrytill quits (e0180937c3@2a03:6000:1812:100::e8c) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × whereiseveryone quits (206ba86c98@2a03:6000:1812:100::2e4) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × lucyy quits (228ee8f0ce@user/lucyy) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × simendsjo quits (34b0550437@2a03:6000:1812:100::1441) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × jakzale quits (6291399afa@user/jakzale) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × lane quits (809450f172@2a03:6000:1812:100::1300) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × ggb quits (a62ffbaf4f@2a03:6000:1812:100::3ac) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × filwisher quits (2e6936c793@2a03:6000:1812:100::170) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × tjbc quits (~tjbc@user/fliife) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × polykernel quits (~polykerne@user/polykernel) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × bryanv quits (~quassel@2603:c028:4503:7500:45b7:933:ab17:bc10) (*.net *.split)
00:07:21 × berberman quits (~berberman@user/berberman) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × m257 quits (msa@msa.planetofnix.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × zfnmxt quits (~zfnmxt@user/zfnmxt) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × sclv quits (sid39734@haskell/developer/sclv) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × Techcable quits (sid534393@user/Techcable) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × SanchayanMaity quits (sid478177@id-478177.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × sa1 quits (sid7690@id-7690.ilkley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × tuxpaint quits (~a@2600:3c06::f03c:93ff:fea6:ef0e) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × fired quits (la@2600:3c00::f03c:92ff:fee3:aace) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × barrucadu quits (~barrucadu@carcosa.barrucadu.co.uk) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × cjay quits (cjay@nerdbox.nerd2nerd.org) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × ringo_ quits (~ringo@157.230.117.128) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × shane quits (~shane@ana.rch.ist) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × tomsmeding quits (~tomsmedin@2a01:4f8:c0c:5e5e::2) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × chymera quits (~chymera@ns1000526.ip-51-81-46.us) (*.net *.split)
00:07:22 × ol0ck quits (~quassel@user/ol0ck) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × NiKaN quits (sid385034@id-385034.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × Athas quits (athas@sigkill.dk) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × mikko quits (~mikko@user/mikko) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × Kamuela quits (sid111576@id-111576.tinside.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × fr33domlover quits (~fr33domlo@towards.vision) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × bramh quits (~bramh@user/bramh) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × polux quits (~polux@51-15-169-172.rev.poneytelecom.eu) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × ames quits (~amelia@offtopia/offtopian/amelia) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × stefan-__ quits (~m-yh2rcc@42dots.de) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × synchromesh quits (~john@2406:5a00:24cf:bb00:1a4:92cb:1fbc:9b31) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × Sgeo quits (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × misterfish quits (~misterfis@84.53.85.146) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × weary-traveler quits (~user@user/user363627) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × TheCoffeMaker quits (~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (*.net *.split)
00:07:23 × tessier quits (~tessier@ip68-8-117-219.sd.sd.cox.net) (*.net *.split)
00:07:24 × Miroboru quits (~myrvoll@178-164-114.82.3p.ntebredband.no) (*.net *.split)
00:07:24 × Ekho quits (~Ekho@user/ekho) (*.net *.split)
00:07:24 × comonad quits (~comonad@p200300d027488b00f8b6e4e070ffbc0b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (*.net *.split)
00:07:24 × mulk quits (~mulk@p5b112753.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (*.net *.split)
00:07:24 × Xe quits (~Xe@perl/impostor/xe) (*.net *.split)
00:07:24 × pikajude quits (~jude@149.28.207.64) (*.net *.split)
00:07:24 × s3 quits (~s3@user/bn) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × GoldsteinQ quits (~goldstein@goldstein.rs) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × jocke-l quits (jocke-l@a.x0.is) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × yahb2 quits (~yahb2@user/tomsmeding/bot/yahb2) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × lambdabot quits (~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × nicole quits (ilbelkyr@libera/staff/ilbelkyr) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × Angelz quits (Angelz@user/angelz) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × krjst quits (~krjst@2604:a880:800:c1::16b:8001) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × haveo_ quits (~weechat@pacamara.iuwt.fr) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × carbolymer quits (~carbolyme@dropacid.net) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × tamer quits (~tamer@user/tamer) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × meejah quits (~meejah@rutas.meejah.ca) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × Clint quits (~Clint@user/clint) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × fernando-basso quits (~fernando-@2a01:4f9:c012:63d3::1) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × n3t quits (~n3t@user/n3t) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × cross quits (~cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × [exa] quits (~exa@user/exa/x-3587197) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × nshepperd quits (nshepperd@2600:3c03::f03c:92ff:fe28:92c9) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × davean quits (~davean@davean.sciesnet.net) (*.net *.split)
00:07:25 × h2t quits (~h2t@user/h2t) (*.net *.split)
00:07:26 × darkling quits (~darkling@2001-ba8-1f1-f0e6-0-0-0-2.autov6rev.bitfolk.space) (*.net *.split)
00:07:26 × Digit quits (~user@user/digit) (*.net *.split)
00:07:26 × tt12310978324354 quits (~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:219f:50d3:618a:a6ee) (*.net *.split)
00:07:26 × sudden quits (~cat@user/sudden) (*.net *.split)
00:07:26 × xal quits (~xal@mx1.xal.systems) (*.net *.split)
00:07:26 × manwithluck quits (~manwithlu@2a00:7c80:0:3a6::12) (*.net *.split)
00:07:26 × nek0 quits (~nek0@user/nek0) (*.net *.split)
00:07:26 × remedan quits (~remedan@ip-62-245-108-153.bb.vodafone.cz) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × bionade24 quits (~quassel@2a03:4000:33:45b::1) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × sus0 quits (thelounge@user/zeromomentum) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × edwtjo quits (~edwtjo@fsf/member/edwtjo) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × DrachenMaus quits (~dragonmau@user/dragonmaus) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × finsternis quits (~X@23.226.237.192) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × jjhoo quits (jahakala@user/jjhoo) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × cyphase quits (~cyphase@user/cyphase) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × srk quits (~sorki@user/srk) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × absence_ quits (torgeihe@hildring.pvv.ntnu.no) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × ridcully quits (~ridcully@p508acb9a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × jmct quits (sid160793@id-160793.tinside.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × dispater quits (~dispater@mail.brprice.uk) (*.net *.split)
00:07:27 × dpk quits (~dpk@jains.nonceword.org) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × snek quits (sid280155@id-280155.lymington.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × degraafk quits (sid71464@id-71464.lymington.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × edwardk quits (sid47016@haskell/developer/edwardk) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × joeyh quits (~joeyh@kitenet.net) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × Adeon quits (sid418992@id-418992.lymington.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × lally quits (sid388228@id-388228.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × sm quits (~znc@plaintextaccounting/sm) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × Fangs quits (sid141280@id-141280.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × crazazy quits (~crazazy@tilde.town) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × nisstyre quits (wes@user/nisstyre) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × liskin quits (~liskin@xmonad/liskin) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × monochrom quits (trebla@216.138.220.146) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × m1dnight quits (~m1dnight@d8D861908.access.telenet.be) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × turlando quits (~turlando@user/turlando) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × sabathan quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × tv quits (~tv@user/tv) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × EvanR quits (~EvanR@user/evanr) (*.net *.split)
00:07:28 × img quits (~img@user/img) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × roconnor quits (~quassel@rocq/roconnor) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × feetwind quits (~mike@user/feetwind) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × preflex quits (~preflex@user/mauke/bot/preflex) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × myxokephale quits (~myxos@syn-065-028-251-121.res.spectrum.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × acidsys quits (~crameleon@openSUSE/member/crameleon) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × echoreply quits (~echoreply@45.32.163.16) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × saolsen quits (sid26430@id-26430.lymington.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × mhatta quits (~mhatta@www21123ui.sakura.ne.jp) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × samhh_ quits (7569f027cf@2a03:6000:1812:100::e4) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × Ankhers quits (e99e97ef8e@2a03:6000:1812:100::2a2) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × bgtdsword quits (b968c1779f@user/titibandit) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × evanrelf quits (3addc196af@2a03:6000:1812:100::f0) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × duncan quits (c6181279e3@user/meow/duncan) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × aniketd quits (32aa4844cd@2a03:6000:1812:100::dcb) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × sus quits (1b7af6299f@user/zeromomentum) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × b0o quits (0e4a0bf4c9@2a03:6000:1812:100::1bf) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × fn_lumi quits (3d621153a5@2a03:6000:1812:100::df7) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × fgaz quits (1ff9197ed6@2a03:6000:1812:100::11ea) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × pmk quits (6afe4476a1@2a03:6000:1812:100::26d) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × mceresa quits (~mceresa@user/mceresa) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × _d0t quits (~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × mniip quits (mniip@libera/staff/mniip) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × Leary quits (~Leary@user/Leary/x-0910699) (*.net *.split)
00:07:29 × andreas303 quits (andreas303@is.drunk.and.ready-to.party) (*.net *.split)
00:07:30 × hammond quits (proscan@gateway04.insomnia247.nl) (*.net *.split)
00:07:30 × PotatoGim quits (sid99505@id-99505.lymington.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:30 × bgamari quits (~bgamari@64.223.225.174) (*.net *.split)
00:07:30 × dyniec quits (~dyniec@dybiec.info) (*.net *.split)
00:07:30 × jakesyl_____ quits (sid56879@id-56879.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:30 × inedia quits (~irc@2600:3c00:e000:287::1) (*.net *.split)
00:07:30 × sefidel quits (~sefidel@user/sefidel) (*.net *.split)
00:07:30 × _koolazer quits (~koo@user/koolazer) (*.net *.split)
00:07:30 × tired- quits (~tired@user/tired) (*.net *.split)
00:07:30 × bastelfreak quits (bastelfrea@libera/staff/VoxPupuli.bastelfreak) (*.net *.split)
00:07:30 × astroanax quits (~astroanax@2001:19f0:7402:f82:5400:1ff:fec4:f7d7) (*.net *.split)
00:07:30 × lieven quits (~mal@ns2.wyrd.be) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × mima quits (~mmh@user/mima) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × drlkf quits (~drlkf@chat-1.drlkf.net) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × edm quits (sid147314@id-147314.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × siers quits (~ij@user/ij) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × SrPx quits (sid108780@id-108780.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × hamishmack quits (sid389057@id-389057.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × cheater quits (~Username@user/cheater) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × pavonia quits (~user@user/siracusa) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × op_4 quits (~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × JamesMowery quits (~JamesMowe@ip68-228-212-232.ph.ph.cox.net) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × xacktm quits (xacktm@user/xacktm) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × myme quits (~myme@40.51-175-185.customer.lyse.net) (*.net *.split)
00:07:31 × meooow quits (~meooow@2400:6180:100:d0::ad9:e001) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × Patternmaster quits (~georg@user/Patternmaster) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × bcksl quits (~bcksl@user/bcksl) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × juri_ quits (~juri@implicitcad.org) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × son0p quits (~ff@2800:e6:4000:d723:c181:4205:f2b1:437a) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × buhman quits (sid411355@user/buhman) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × Moyst quits (~moyst@user/moyst) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × Sciencentistguy quits (~sciencent@hacksoc/ordinary-member) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × CalimeroTeknik quits (~calimero@user/calimeroteknik) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × FragByte quits (~christian@user/fragbyte) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × leah2 quits (~leah@vuxu.org) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × cawfee quits (root@2001:19f0:4400:79a1::babe) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × taktoa[c] quits (sid282096@id-282096.tinside.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:32 × aspen quits (sid449115@id-449115.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × jonrh quits (sid5185@id-5185.ilkley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × ent- quits (entgod@kapsi.fi) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × arkeet quits (~arkeet@moriya.ca) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × b20n quits (sid115913@id-115913.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × dy quits (sid3438@user/dy) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × jackdk quits (sid373013@cssa/jackdk) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × danso quits (~danso@user/danso) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × tolt quits (~weechat-h@li219-154.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × systemfault quits (sid267009@about/typescript/member/systemfault) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × shachaf quits (~shachaf@user/shachaf) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × e-snail quits (~pete@user/e-snail) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × iphy quits (sid67735@user/iphy) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × totbwf quits (uid402332@id-402332.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × energizer quits (~energizer@user/energizer) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × carter quits (sid14827@id-14827.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × lisq quits (~quassel@lis.moe) (*.net *.split)
00:07:33 × xnyhps quits (~xnyhps@2a02:2770:3:0:216:3eff:fe67:3288) (*.net *.split)
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10:20:25 <carbolymer> If you were writing a module exposing an API for a collection, together with IsList instance, would you expose monomorphic toList & fromList functions as well?
10:21:24 <tomsmeding> if you don't, you should probably re-export toList and fromList from IsList
10:22:03 <carbolymer> yes, def, but is it worth providing monomorphic versions of those?
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10:23:59 <merijn> carbolymer: I mean, the main (only) use case for IsList is `OverloadedLists` in which case the instance should generally be inferred and inlining known instances is a pretty trivial optimisation I'd assume GHC gets right
10:25:43 <carbolymer> I prefer IsList over Map.fromList for example, because I can easily change the collection type and don't worry about updating imports everywhere. Why do you consider its only use case `OverloadedLists`?
10:27:05 <carbolymer> the downside is that compiler errors are not very readable with `IsList`
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10:38:18 <tomsmeding> carbolymer: I guess it comes down to which side of the debate you're on regarding "should we have 'map' in addition to 'fmap'" :)
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10:38:35 <carbolymer> yeah )
10:39:03 <tomsmeding> to which there's no general consensus other than that 'map' hasn't been removed yet, so do what you think is right
10:41:25 <tomsmeding> a possible argument in this debate: the more you use polymorphic typeclass methods instead of monomorphic ones (where the latter would have been possible), the less readable your code gets without HLS telling what type things have
10:41:47 <tomsmeding> how much value you ascribe to this argument depends on how acceptable you think it is to need HLS to work productively. :)
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13:19:59 <yin> typechecking is useful
13:20:17 <yin> when the feedback loop is tight
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13:21:40 <yin> the tighter the more useful it is, so i would say hls is very important
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13:49:39 <hseg> Hi, I'm trying to figure out who's using a certain function in a project. It seems like this should be a solved problem, but I can't figure it out
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13:52:51 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I think HLS has a show-list-of-references-to-symbol function
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13:55:20 <hseg> OK, though setting up HLS feels like a bit of a big yak to shave rn. Might do it later today, then
13:55:24 <hseg> thanks!
13:55:36 <hseg> and yes -- https://haskell-language-server.readthedocs.io/en/latest/features.html#find-references it does have it
13:56:04 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I too would prefer if all those functions were available outside of LSP
13:56:31 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Some of them were in the prehistoric times, and then they were abandoned and bitrotted. And then HLS appeared and integrated them
13:57:01 <hseg> I'm surprised vim doesn't have some version of this built in
13:57:21 <haskellbridge> <Morj> :help cscope :D
13:57:29 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Requires an outside program still though
13:58:01 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Also it has :grep
13:59:21 <hseg> right, problem is I'm looking for usages of a function called run
14:01:01 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Haha, yeah. To this day I'm still traumatized and name my functions like 'runServer' for easier grepping. Or in rust I rarely use 'use', always fully qualify
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14:01:34 <haskellbridge> <Morj> (Well also because rust-analyzer likes to crash, but that's a separate problem)
14:02:24 <hseg> I'm guessing full imports also help for this -- I hadn't realized eg expandArgsAt was from outside the project
14:03:18 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Oh yes, I'm incredibly fond of HLS's function to add an explicit import list for every import statement
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14:17:49 <ski> typechecking is also useful, when you can do it more in your head (without reflecting much over it)
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14:24:12 <hseg> ski: connection to the above?
14:27:18 <ski> perhaps it can also be helpful, to be given a chance to predict types (internalizing them more ?), and not get instant answers .. not sure
14:29:24 <ski> (reflection on what was said, before you joined, i suppose)
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14:31:09 <hseg> ah ok
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15:12:04 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i have to say it's funny how in Rust people completely ignored the idea that typeclass abuse was a thing, and i'm actively being encouraged to write my program inside an impl
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15:23:19 <ski> too much of bad OO tradition influence, on that aspect of culture ?
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15:58:26 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Liamzee type class abuse is bad for 2 reasons, performance and readability. Since they dont do implicit dictionaries like us, they dont suffer from point 1 and almost everyone uses rust analyzer which massively alleviates point 2 imo
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16:20:38 <dmoerner> new-ish to haskell, and i was wondering if there's a way to write a coprime function like this in point-free style? my first attempt (commented out) does not work https://play.haskell.org/saved/Rg8mH98X
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16:24:31 <mauke> ah, the classic g (f x y)
16:24:38 <mauke> @pl \x y -> g (f x y)
16:24:38 <lambdabot> (g .) . f
16:25:15 <mauke> ((g .) . f) x = (g .) (f x) = g . f x
16:25:22 <mauke> (g . f x) y = g (f x y)
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16:44:08 <yin> what is understood by "type class abuse"?
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16:48:15 <dmoerner> thanks mulk
16:48:19 <dmoerner> mauke, i mean
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17:36:35 <seydar> I'm having some trouble with a LALR grammar and I don't know who else to turn to
17:36:46 <seydar> https://mdaines.github.io/grammophone/?s=UiAtPiBSIFMgLgpSIC0+IFMgLgpTIC0+IGlkICI6IiBQIC4KUyAtPiBpZCAiOiIgLgpQIC0+IFAgaWQgLgpQIC0+IGlkIC4=
17:38:02 <seydar> It says it's not LALR, but I can't figure out why
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18:18:07 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> No clue but that tool seems very useful. Thanks!
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20:04:02 <[exa]> Bowuigi: how come it reports that the grammar contains no cycle when it actually does?
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20:07:15 <[exa]> anyway they probably got a bit confused by the stuff that the tool reports; the grammar indeed has a LALR parser but it can't be based on this grammar without a little more processing (there's right recursion, who's supposed to reduce that.)
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20:09:53 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Oh I just saw "this grammar is not LALR" being emmited automatically and concluded that it was useful lol
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21:49:23 <jle`> what's the actual term for the relationship between ie Semigroup and Monoid? is Monoid a subclass of Semigroup?
21:50:32 <jle`> even though it sort of goes in the reverse direction of liskov substitution
21:52:10 <jle`> maybe the only thing you can say is that Monoid is a constrained typeclass
21:52:55 <jle`> but i do see people sometimes saying ie. Num is a superclass of Fractional
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21:53:22 <geekosaur> that's what the Report calls it
21:54:45 <jle`> ah. the report uses both superclass and subclass
21:54:48 <jle`> thanks
21:57:13 <jle`> so Num is a superclass of Fractional but Num a => a is a subtype of Fractional a => a
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22:01:35 <dolio> That's relatively normal for building things with arrows. The left-hand side is contravariant.
22:03:11 <jle`> oh nice that makes a lot of sense
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22:06:24 <jle`> that translates well to how (forall a. Num a => [a] -> r) -> r is a supertype of (forall a. Fractional a => [a] -> r) -> r .... because the variances line up
22:06:44 <jle`> ...i think
22:07:23 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> why do people complain that OOP rots the mind?
22:07:57 <monochrom> I don't know, because I am not one of them.
22:08:05 <jle`> usually it's because their oop professor was mean to them
22:08:06 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> I'm working Rust right now, building a toy tetris game, and OOP's approach to data organization seems useful
22:08:09 <monochrom> Why do you not ask those people?
22:08:34 <dolio> jle`: I think that's right, but there are to many negations for me to be really confident.
22:08:45 <monochrom> Why do people ask you what other people think?
22:09:04 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> because it was a stray comment by a Haskeller on /r/Haskell from up to 24 months ago
22:09:24 <monochrom> Sure. So ask that particular Haskeller.
22:10:06 <monochrom> Are you like a reporter for a politics newspaper? Because only they do this meme of "he said such and such, what do you think?"
22:10:31 <monochrom> You just, trying to increase divisiveness and "controversy".
22:10:41 <monochrom> It is pretty much why this world is such a mess.
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22:11:18 <monochrom> s/You just/You know/
22:11:22 <jle`> if Num is negative in forall a. Num a => [a] -> r then it'd be positive in (forall a. Num a => [a] -> r) -> r
22:11:39 <dolio> Yeah.
22:12:31 <jle`> it's still a bit weird to think of `Num` alone as positive but i guess there is no need to formalize that
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22:14:19 <monochrom> Wait. So consider the existential types "data N = forall a. Num a => N a" and "data F = forall a. Fractional a => F a". Which one is a subtype of which? I think F is the subtype.
22:14:39 <monochrom> If you give me an F value, I can repackage it as an N value.
22:14:45 <dolio> Yes.
22:15:01 <dolio> Existentials like that sort of have the class in positive position.
22:15:18 <jle`> yeah in the case i was talking about, F would be considered the subtype. only i use => F [a] instead of => F a
22:15:21 <monochrom> OTOH I'll admit it's flipped with "data N' = N' (forall a. Num a => a)" and the analogous F'
22:16:07 <jle`> yeah my two example types were the cps'd data N = forall a. Num a => N [a] and data F = forall a. Fractional a => F [a]
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22:17:16 <jle`> so it's kind of neat when you CPS transform it you can see the Num/Fractional visually pop from negative to positive
22:17:58 <jle`> i guess you could formalize it by seeing it in terms of `forall a. NumDict a -> a`, (forall a. NumDict a -> [a] -> r) -> r, and `forall a. NumDict a`
22:19:08 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> well, a different, more concrete question, what happened with the typeclass abuse thing, and why was it considered smelly? i.e, ad-hoc, lawless typeclasses intended to create OOP-style methods and functionality?
22:19:45 <monochrom> All abuses are smelly. Well, much worse than smelly, it's criminal.
22:19:54 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i mean the only obviously bad thing that springs to mind is orphan instances
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22:20:23 <monochrom> No programming language can ban all abuses.
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22:20:51 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> but afaik that was in vogue a long time ago, wasn't it? then haskellers found out it was horrible and warned against it?
22:21:24 <dolio> No.
22:21:47 <dolio> It sounds like something that commonly happens when someone learns Haskell after coming from OOP.
22:22:17 <c_wraith> Orphan instances are actually supported better by tooling than they used to be. Haddock now lists orphan instances declared in a module
22:22:18 <jle`> usually when you write typeclass-polymorphic code you'd like to be able to reason with it. so with lawless typeclasses this is kind of hard. typeclasses have a lot of weight, being global and not hideable, so this can make things a bit tricky in practice
22:22:20 <dolio> Just assuming that type classes should be used like OOP.
22:22:34 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> or a possibility if someone learns OOP after coming from Haskell
22:22:57 <c_wraith> The only real abuse of type classes I've seen is when someone wants to share names for something that there is no way to use interchangeably.
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22:23:31 <monochrom> Look, even when I teach parametricity vs ad hoc, I come clean and note that although OOP formally allows ad hoc (as in, the "same" method on different types may have arbitrary differences), I note that I am scaremongering, real programmers don't normally do really arbitrary differences, actually the "different" behaviours are closely related and the differences reasonable and necessary. It's a spectrum with grey areas not just boolean black and white.
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22:24:06 <monochrom> People don't have to abuse OOP. And there are tons of ways to abuse FP too.
22:24:10 <int-e> "No, `class` is not an OO class. It's more like a Java interface." [...] "No, we do not do the Java EE thing where every single structure is first defined as an interface and then a type that implements it." [...] "I'm sorry to hear that your code is a mess but it's largely because you used the wrong ideas and abstractions for this language."
22:25:07 <int-e> My perception is that this phenomenon is *old* and was never embraced by Haskell programmers except for doing crazy things often attributed to Oleg ;-).
22:25:22 <dolio> The 'problem' is some OO languages is that OO designs aren't good for certain things, but you can be forced to use the bad designs because better ones don't exist.
22:25:32 <Rembane> int-e: The tagless final goodness?
22:26:09 <dolio> And a vaguer problem is that mainstream programmer 'culture' has overpopularized the bad designs. Or did at one time.
22:26:21 <monochrom> Oh, about "like interface", am I the only one who recognize this? You have two solutions coming from two POVs to solve the same problem, that's why they feel "similar" but also "different". They solve the same problem. They are opposite approaches. It's very simple. Why is it confusing?
22:26:48 <dolio> And sometimes give strange, unrealistic examples in support of certain OO designs.
22:27:19 <int-e> monochrom: The "it's more like a Java interface" is specifically for trying to build a bridge to people with an OO background. It's not meant to be super accurate.
22:27:30 <int-e> lie-to-children territory
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22:28:06 <monochrom> Also why do people have to speak in simpleton amoeba terms of "is like, is not like"?
22:28:23 <c_wraith> the "like a java interface" thing breaks down basically as soon as you hit something as complex as Eq, but it at least gets people looking less in the wrong direction
22:29:40 <monochrom> People have already seen C++ so "like C++ operator overloading but more organized" is the better story and gets there faster.
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22:29:49 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> monochrom: partially because people are trained to talk to their audience and they're making the assumption that they're talking to amoeba simpletons, or that doing so provides the best tradeoff between their ability to communicate their ideas and the respect for their audience
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22:30:44 <jle`> one thing i miss about writing enterprise java was saying the word Bean out loud
22:30:56 <monochrom> heh
22:31:34 <c_wraith> talk to more coffee snobs
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22:32:08 <jle`> there is a decent overlap between coffee snobs and programmers
22:32:13 <jle`> so that's nice
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22:33:50 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> but afaik haskell doesn't favor using ad-hoc typeclasses does it, because the syntax is often much worse (need to write instances to multiple typeclasses is obnoxious)
22:33:57 <dolio> Careful. People will think you're on drugs or something.
22:34:09 <dolio> When you're talking about "doses" and stuff.
22:34:34 <monochrom> Oh I have already long concluded that they are on drugs.
22:34:40 <jackdk> monochrom: 'why do people have to speak in simpleton amoeba terms of "is like, is not like"?' I see it as "first you have to get a rope across the chasm': you get some idea across and then you refine the wrong idea into a less wrong idea. IME, not as many people can grok a concept from definitions up
22:36:07 <monochrom> int-e, jackdk: I am a good teacher, I do bridging all the time, and actually precisely because of that, my bridges are much clearer and have more predictive power than puny "is like".
22:37:07 <monochrom> For example, as said, either I bridge with "like C++ operator overloading" or "both Java and Haskell try to solve this same problem but they came up with different approaches because the solution has to fit with the rest of the language".
22:37:14 <jackdk> It would be cool to see you teach someday
22:37:21 <int-e> monochrom: your condescension has been noted and is totally uncalled for
22:37:57 <monochrom> OK sorry. I didn't intend it.
22:38:29 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> so, ummm, if i were to do a more OOP-ish appproach, I guess what I'd be looking for would be to set up data modules and do import qualified as?
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22:38:58 <constxd> what might u name this function?
22:39:22 <constxd> foo f x = pure (f x)
22:39:32 <constxd> wait no
22:39:45 <monochrom> I think I'll just use "pure . f"
22:40:08 <monochrom> either that, or at call sites just "pure (f x)" without making a name for it.
22:40:32 <constxd> i guess maybe this question doesn't really make sense in haskell
22:41:57 <constxd> but in a language with colored async functions (python), i have this: def foo(f, *xs): async def g(): return f(*xs); return g
22:42:03 <monochrom> jackdk: This is how I teach Haskell type classes. At the end there is also a little discussion about C++ and Java. https://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-latest/04-haskell-types-2.html
22:42:34 <jackdk> Liamzee: I have never found OOP to be a scalable technique. As soon as you work on two types of data, you have to make hard choices about which OOclass "owns" the method, or invent dubious nouns to hold a single function of two arguments.
22:42:49 <jackdk> Liamzee: any chance you can say more about the problem you're modelling?
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22:43:39 <constxd> in haskell it doesn't matter i guess because you just apply f immediately, there's no difference
22:43:47 <constxd> and then it's literally just pure
22:44:49 <constxd> i have to defer the application of f with its arguments until the bind operation that unwraps the pure value
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22:47:41 <monochrom> In Haskell, if you use the async library (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/async), it is actually not too different from the Python version.
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23:35:25 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> jackdk: I'm just doing a simple tetris game in Rust, turned out to have taken much longer until I went to datatypes -> functions (in this case methods) approach
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23:38:00 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i guess none of what i'm saying is new; people with orders of magnitude more experience than me have compared OOP vs FP approaches; OOP has very nice things about how it organizes code (I've always found FP libs to be disorganized)
23:38:28 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> for instance, someone told me that Haskellers just tend to define datatypes anywhere instead of using specialized modules
23:39:10 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> also, a very nice thing about playing with Rust is that it's so freaking verbose
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23:40:04 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> you know me as the guy (Inst) who likes to complain about minor syntax issues with Haskell, when Haskell is tied with Python for terseness (monad accounting cancels out FP terseness)
23:42:24 <c_wraith> python is not what I think of when I think of a terse language.
23:42:35 <c_wraith> I think of like apl or julia.
23:42:52 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> begin end
23:43:38 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> although obv apl wins ahead, and it's all classical chinese to me (modern Chinese has tons of digraphs, classical Chinese, the older you get, the more single character words) :)
23:43:51 <geekosaur> you want terse? mumps
23:43:55 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> /s/wins ahead/comes out ahead/
23:44:21 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS
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