Logs on 2025-03-11 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:02:02 | <monochrom> | tomsmeding: I never claimed that these 3 orders are identical: order of invention, order of explanation, order of sending it off to the computer. Ironically, I was claiming that all 3 are different, but everyone thought I claimed them to be the same. |
| 00:04:25 | <monochrom> | Even explanation has multiple orders depending on the purpose of the explanation and/or the interest of the audience. |
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| 00:08:26 | <monochrom> | Literate programming has two fundamentalist axioms. One is from Knuth's "you write for humans primarily, oh it happens to be readable by the computer too". One is from software engineering's DRY. |
| 00:09:33 | <monochrom> | The latter implies that you will not write one source file and one document file, you will only write one file for both. The former implies Knuth's web file format. |
| 00:10:27 | <monochrom> | I have not done literate programming for a long time. But I am saying what doesn't count as literate programming. |
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| 00:19:50 | <monochrom> | I'm OK if you say: Write in programming language order, add special comment markers to tell the blogifier how to turn it into a blog post. That counts too. |
| 00:21:10 | <monochrom> | (I'm also secretly hoping you to ask an inevitable followup question after I said "even explanation has multiple orders". :) ) |
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| 07:29:40 | <dminuoso> | Is there a type of STM multi-consumer queue, where consumers can be connected after the queue was created, and each consumer can consume at their own pace? I'm roughly trying to mimic a file API here. |
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| 07:31:12 | <dminuoso> | Or mm. Perhaps a writer TChan + cloned reader TChan is all I need |
| 07:33:51 | <Leary> | dminuoso: Yes, that's what `newBroadcastTChan` and `dupTChan` are for. |
| 07:39:15 | <dminuoso> | " By using newBroadcastTChan to create the broadcast channel, items can be garbage collected after clients have seen them." reads as if I have to use newTChan rather than newBroadcastTChan |
| 07:39:36 | <dminuoso> | That is, I *want* items to stay around even if they have been read |
| 07:39:48 | <dminuoso> | Since consumers may connect after some clients have read them |
| 07:40:03 | <dminuoso> | Leary: Anyway, thanks for the confirmation. |
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| 07:41:56 | <Leary> | dminuoso: If you need new clients to see old elements, it will have to be `newTChan` and `cloneTChan` instead, it's just that holding onto everything a channel has ever seen is usually a bad idea. |
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| 07:47:06 | <Leary> | (wanting to do so suggests you might actually want a denser representation; perhaps an exponentially-growing `Vector` in a `TVar` with some cursor tracking state on each side) |
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| 08:29:24 | <dminuoso> | Maybe instead of simulating a file API, I should just use files. |
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| 08:30:19 | <dminuoso> | It avoids memory issues by keeping potentially large queues on disk, while automatic linux buffer memories should give near in-memory performance on average |
| 08:36:52 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: Aside asynchronous communication over IRC is not particularly practical. :P |
| 08:37:04 | <tomsmeding> | I guess my point is that lecture notes are not what a programming language should optimise for |
| 08:37:30 | <tomsmeding> | A programming language should optimise for maintainability, understandability given that you already get the structure of the code (which should be explained by a comment, alternative documentation, etc.) |
| 08:38:15 | <tomsmeding> | I have not only not done literate programming for a long time, I have _never_ done it yet. So partly I'm talking from void here |
| 08:39:20 | <tomsmeding> | Writing in programming language order and then adding markers to rearrange it into prose sounds like a very good way to turn yourself mad :) |
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| 10:58:17 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: it helps a lot with conveying the idea. not a fan of whole literate programs but for tutorials it makes a lot of sense |
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| 13:21:31 | <sinbad> | I have a program which depends on either "foo" xor "bar" packages. foo and bar provides the same, but have very different dependencies depending the os/platform. I wanted to select the appropriate package using user flags in the cabal file. That does not really work as I expected since regardless of the flag cabal looks for both packages while resolving the dependencies even if finally (build/link phase) uses only the (flag) selected on |
| 13:21:31 | <sinbad> | e. Is it possible to achieve what I want without using two different cabal files? |
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| 13:31:05 | <tomsmeding> | sinbad: you can put additional build-depends: clauses inside an `if` in the .cabal file |
| 13:31:31 | <tomsmeding> | cabal will collect the constraints from all build-depends: clauses it finds, _after_ evaluating away `if` blocks |
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| 13:32:07 | <tomsmeding> | sinbad: not sure if this works for your usecase, but you can also query some features of the platform (OS, CPU architecture) from the cabal file just like you can query flags |
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| 13:37:17 | <sinbad> | tomsmeding: I do use the build-depends clauses, but that does not work after the if blocks but before! |
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| 13:38:29 | <sinbad> | know about os etch flags, my case is a bit more complicated. that does not help |
| 13:41:29 | <sinbad> | foo and bar are specified as source-repository-package in different project files |
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| 13:44:40 | <tomsmeding> | sinbad: "does not work after the if blocks but before" -- that doesn't parse for me |
| 13:44:46 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps you can post the .cabal file you're trying to make work? |
| 13:48:55 | <sinbad> | tomsmeding: you said cabal evals if blocks than looks for deps. logical that's what one would expects. but it is not what happens. cabal first checks all packages regardless if blocks than build using evaluated if blocks. |
| 13:51:47 | <sinbad> | cabal file detail: if flag(foo) {build-depends: foo} else {build-depends: bar} |
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| 13:52:39 | <sinbad> | definition: flag foo; default true; manual true |
| 13:54:43 | <sinbad> | if the environment contains all the dependencies for both foo and bar then everything (kind of) works as expected an the final product linked with flag requested packages. |
| 13:58:14 | <merijn> | sinbad: This is actually not true (first if blocks, then dependencies) |
| 13:58:52 | <merijn> | What it does is "if it fails to find a build plan with the default values for flags, it will try toggling auto-flags and see if with the auto flags toggled it DOES get a build plan" |
| 13:59:55 | <sinbad> | merjin: for the cabal manual: By default, Cabal will first try to satisfy dependencies with the default flag value and then, if that is not possible, with the negated value. However, if the flag is manual, then the default value (which can be overridden by commandline flags) will be used. |
| 14:00:11 | <merijn> | Right, that's what I said, no :) |
| 14:00:28 | <sinbad> | but in fact, it works in both case the same as manual: false |
| 14:00:35 | <merijn> | sinbad: Which cabal-version? |
| 14:00:50 | <merijn> | Some old versions had the incorrect behaviour for flags (no auto-toggling) |
| 14:01:07 | <merijn> | And I'm unsure whether the fix for that depends on a specific cabal-version or not |
| 14:01:07 | <sinbad> | 3.14.1.1 |
| 14:01:20 | <merijn> | sinbad: And does your cabal file specify a cabal-version? |
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| 14:01:44 | <sinbad> | yes 3.12 |
| 14:02:01 | <sinbad> | there is no other version of cabal around anyway |
| 14:02:54 | <merijn> | sinbad: The version in the file indicates the spec version (and thus how it gets parsed), newer cabal's will parse files with old versions with the old semantics |
| 14:03:11 | <merijn> | At any rate 3.12 is plenty new that that doesn't seem relevant |
| 14:03:16 | <sinbad> | 3.12 is new enough? |
| 14:04:30 | <tomsmeding> | sinbad: so what, precisely, are you observing? You have `if flag(foo) {build-depends: foo} else {build-depends: bar}`, the `foo` flag is manual with default `true`, and then... what exactly? |
| 14:04:41 | <tomsmeding> | you try to build this with foo available but not bar, and cabal fails? |
| 14:04:52 | <tomsmeding> | Or you build it with only bar available, and cabal succeeds? |
| 14:05:45 | <tomsmeding> | It may be true (didn't test) that if you specifiy a source-repository-package block in a cabal.project file, cabal will always at least clone that thing, if perhaps not build it, regardless of whether it's actually required somewhere |
| 14:05:48 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps that is happening? |
| 14:07:49 | <sinbad> | tomsmeding: yes that is always happening, does not make any sense in my view. however now I am using two different project files with different source-repo... |
| 14:07:58 | <tomsmeding> | sinbad: please be explicit |
| 14:08:05 | <tomsmeding> | "that is always happening" -- _what_ is always happening? |
| 14:08:06 | <sinbad> | ?? |
| 14:08:09 | <tomsmeding> | I gave two options |
| 14:08:12 | <tomsmeding> | which one :p |
| 14:08:29 | <tomsmeding> | oh you mean the cloning? |
| 14:08:45 | <sinbad> | yes the cloning |
| 14:08:49 | <tomsmeding> | I see |
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| 14:09:40 | <sinbad> | I feel I tired all the combinations possible ... :-9 |
| 14:09:42 | <tomsmeding> | sinbad: I think cabal has to clone it, because the source-repository-package clause does not contain the package name |
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| 14:10:04 | <tomsmeding> | cabal has to clone the repo and look at the <something>.cabal file in there to figure out what package name it provides |
| 14:10:15 | <tomsmeding> | without that info, cabal doesn't know whether the repo is required in the first place |
| 14:10:29 | <sinbad> | tomsmeding: sure, but as I siad now I am using two different project files |
| 14:10:43 | <tomsmeding> | how are you including those project files? |
| 14:10:55 | <tomsmeding> | a project file that doesn't get included/read should definitely not contribute to the build |
| 14:11:01 | <sinbad> | with only one source repo each |
| 14:11:10 | <tomsmeding> | and yet cabal clones both? |
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| 14:11:35 | <tomsmeding> | how are you telling tabal which of the two to use? |
| 14:11:46 | <sinbad> | is specify the project file and use configure |
| 14:12:22 | <sinbad> | I specify the project file on the command line |
| 14:12:38 | <tomsmeding> | then cabal should definitely only read the one you specified |
| 14:12:50 | <tomsmeding> | you observe cabal reading both? |
| 14:12:53 | <tomsmeding> | what are their file names? |
| 14:13:19 | <sinbad> | tomsmeding: yes, but now it complains that cannot find the package |
| 14:13:59 | <sinbad> | names; foo.project bar.project and yes I rename *.project.local to cabal.project.local |
| 14:14:04 | <tomsmeding> | but it shouldn't be looking for the package anyway if you've put the dependency behind an `if` in the cabal file. |
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| 14:14:39 | <sinbad> | tomsmeding: yeah that what I am complaining about |
| 14:15:16 | <tomsmeding> | that sounds like a bug. Can you either make a reproducer, or post a link to the files that cabal acts strangely on? |
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| 14:21:42 | <sinbad> | Either a bug or not the best operational semantics around conditional/flag blocks in cabal. I try to make small reproducer, if/when have some time. |
| 14:21:43 | <sinbad> | thanks everybody for the help. |
| 14:21:43 | <sinbad> | got to go now. |
| 14:23:33 | <tomsmeding> | sinbad: works for me https://paste.tomsmeding.com/9hkEqBPr |
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| 14:24:01 | <tomsmeding> | @tell sinbad in case you missed that, here's the link again https://paste.tomsmeding.com/9hkEqBPr |
| 14:24:01 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 14:27:56 | <sinbad> | tomsmeding: thank you, will study it! :-) |
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| 14:50:49 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> Is there a linter which I can make warn for specific specialisations? i.e. currently I would like to search my whole code base for "void :: f () -> f ()" |
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| 14:55:30 | <euouae> | Hello, what is the way to write package versions for cabal and/or stack? I.e. in general, distribution of haskell packages. I sometimes see Issues like "This won't work with GHC 9.2.x" or package version issues |
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| 15:13:12 | <merijn> | euouae: Not entirely sure what you mean? |
| 15:13:16 | <merijn> | @where pvp |
| 15:13:16 | <lambdabot> | https://pvp.haskell.org/ |
| 15:13:18 | <merijn> | That maybe? |
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| 15:19:59 | <euouae> | yes, thank you! |
| 15:20:25 | <euouae> | I'm just looking for a way to be able to ship software and instruct users and ensure there won't be issues in the future if they follow my instructions |
| 15:20:53 | <euouae> | Ideally just `cabal install` would work, but how do I write the constraints so that I ensure this? (Maybe I just freeze all deps?) |
| 15:21:04 | <euouae> | I'll look into pvp |
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| 15:29:59 | <monochrom> | tomsmeding: I am already mad! >:D |
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| 15:33:03 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: :) |
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| 15:33:46 | <tomsmeding> | euouae: at present, GHC is hard-bound to `base`, so version-bounding `base` also means version-bounding GHC |
| 15:34:01 | <tomsmeding> | more generally, you can branch on the GHC version in a *.cabal file |
| 15:34:27 | <tomsmeding> | and there is a `buildable: False` declaration you can put in a *.cabal file in case you have a configuration that you want to disallow |
| 15:37:05 | <monochrom> | To prove just how mad I am: Do you resent that for every research result, you have to write a tech report, and a conference paper, and a talk for that, and a journal paper, and a thesis? Well in the last days of my PhD, I had this mad idea: A markup language so you write the stuff just once in one file, the markup will tell the computer what to extract for the tech report, what to extract for the conference paper, what to extract for the talk... |
| 15:37:05 | <monochrom> | (Five minutes later, I recognized that obviously this would be a Frankenstein's monster on par with PL/I, UML, USB, ... so I didn't pursue further.) |
| 15:37:35 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: having mad ideas occasionally does not mean one is mad |
| 15:37:59 | <tomsmeding> | indeed, the fact that you recognised that it _was_ a mad idea, proves that you aren't! |
| 15:38:13 | <tomsmeding> | I'm afraid you'll have to work harder to get mad :) |
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| 15:43:00 | <geekosaur> | I actually did my resume that way once since I was targeting multiple fields. It was an unmaintainable monster, and I ended up splitting it again |
| 15:43:22 | <monochrom> | \∩/ empirical data! |
| 15:43:49 | <tomsmeding> | honestly I expect that with this kind of stuff, where the end products are supposed to be documents for human consumption, you'll never be able to properly automate such splitting |
| 15:44:17 | <tomsmeding> | you'll always need bespoke formulations or connecting remarks/sentences, or layout fixes, etc. |
| 15:44:47 | <tomsmeding> | now, if at most one target is a document for human consumption, then it can work perfectly fine -- that's called literate programming |
| 15:45:16 | <tomsmeding> | multiple targets for computer consumption is something the field of CS has been working at solving for the past decades already, and we have various acceptable solutions :) |
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| 15:46:58 | <tomsmeding> | I'm going to make a stronger statement: if you're trying to automate such splitting for documents for human consumption, I'd rather read the original, pre-splitting |
| 15:47:09 | <tomsmeding> | it's likely to have more structure. |
| 15:48:42 | <tomsmeding> | one such splitting approach I did once use is a toggle for switching between an anonymised (for submission to the conference) and a non-anonymised (for submission to arXiv) version of a LaTeX paper. The differences were small enough that that worked quite fine |
| 15:49:12 | <monochrom> | Currently there is just a very simple special case in use: for exam papers, use a TeX boolean flag and write like \ifsolution{ Answer: 42 }\else{ \vspace{2cm} }\fi |
| 15:50:02 | <tomsmeding> | right, that's another one that does work |
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| 15:56:44 | <monochrom> | Next mad scientist idea: While we can't eliminate CPP from Haskell, we can minimize it down to using CPP to set just a few boolean/enumeration constants, then TH does the case analysis on those constants and... |
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| 15:57:18 | <monochrom> | This is known as the Monochrom Normal Form Theorem. |
| 15:58:01 | <monochrom> | (Sorry I had too little sleep and too much coffee!) |
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| 16:17:21 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: can't generate import declarations from TH |
| 16:17:59 | <tomsmeding> | or RULES, or ... |
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| 17:32:12 | <monochrom> | Oh that's a bummer. I was hoping that one example would be conditional imports. |
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| 17:34:18 | <int-e> | just have 2^n different hs-source-dirs |
| 17:36:10 | <dolio> | Exactly. |
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| 17:38:12 | <monochrom> | :( XD |
| 17:47:28 | <dolio> | I've had ideas that don't require all that. |
| 17:48:17 | <dolio> | Like, don't duplicate your whole codebase 2^n times, but set up subprojects and internal dependencies that get swapped out. |
| 17:49:10 | <dolio> | So you only have extra source directories for the things that change. Not ideal for very small differences, though. |
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| 20:57:49 | <Square2> | Trying out ormolu here. The style they propose seems to go against much of what you see out there. let-in not aligning horizontally, commas at the end of the line... horror. |
| 20:58:34 | <EvanR> | "don't argue with the autoformatter" |
| 20:58:45 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 20:58:47 | <EvanR> | but yeah |
| 20:58:51 | <EvanR> | terrible |
| 20:59:48 | <Square2> | yep |
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| 21:07:41 | <yushyin> | the fork fourmolu has a few knobs for adjustments |
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| 21:09:04 | <Square2> | yushyin, thanks. |
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| 21:11:32 | <EvanR> | >code is primarily for communicating with people >autoformatter makes sure people conform to precomputed layout xD |
| 21:12:02 | <EvanR> | the anti-90s |
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| 21:22:08 | <tomsmeding> | where is merijn when you need him |
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| 21:22:45 | <tomsmeding> | https://x.com/comerijn/status/1257804634833420292 |
| 21:23:20 | <tomsmeding> | (screenshot: https://tomsmeding.com/ss/get/tomsmeding/0ALF4u ) |
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| 22:32:11 | <jackdk> | It would be less of an issue if it didn't seem like every formatter was committed to making the ugliest possible choices |
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| 22:43:21 | <TMA> | tomsmeding: typing speed is the bottleneck... sometimes the idea in the head does not linger long enough when typing too slowly |
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| 22:47:57 | ljdarj1 | is now known as ljdarj |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-03-11.