Logs on 2025-03-16 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 05:03:51 | <jle`> | `Type` is nice and all but `*` is such a cooler symbol to represent the concept |
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| 06:14:15 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> I prefer `*` when there's more than one commonly used kind and kind signatures are obligatory, like on my lang; but `Type` otherwise |
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| 06:16:00 | <Guest14> | Hi |
| 06:16:09 | <Guest14> | Am I supposed to send messages here? |
| 06:16:30 | <Guest14> | I'm new to Libera.chat or IRC |
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| 06:30:42 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> jle`: they're forcing us off "*" :( |
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| 06:38:38 | <jle`> | if you do anything non-trivial with datakinds and type families then it's nice to have the syntax rules be the same at the type and term levels, so Type makes sense |
| 06:38:43 | <jle`> | but * -> * just has aura |
| 06:38:53 | <jle`> | that Type -> Type does not |
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| 06:45:17 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> "Type" is Idris wannabe |
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| 07:49:39 | <ski> | ★ → ★ |
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| 14:58:34 | <Inst> | what's the track record for data Foo a type extensible objects in terms of performance? |
| 14:59:09 | <Inst> | actually maybe type families might be better here |
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| 15:01:11 | <Inst> | maybe the correct solution is sum types instead |
| 15:02:57 | <EvanR> | what's an extensible object |
| 15:03:36 | <EvanR> | and performance of a Foo a sounds like what's the speed of a programming language |
| 15:04:38 | <EvanR> | programs (compiled a certain way) doing particular tasks have performance |
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| 15:04:53 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai-3.2.4/docs/src/Network.Wai.Internal.html#Request |
| 15:05:05 | <Inst> | this record type has a LOT of data |
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| 15:05:39 | <Inst> | a different idea might be to structure it as Request a, with a containing options for the data, but it might not be a better way to do it |
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| 15:10:45 | <Inst> | tbh i probably should just think by myself more; the truth is, a lot of the bad ideas have already been tried and shown to have failed |
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| 16:07:15 | <merijn> | Is the Hackage Matrix builder still a thing or did it die in hvr's absence? |
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| 16:16:47 | <geekosaur> | the latter |
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| 16:18:30 | <merijn> | Sad |
| 16:18:51 | <merijn> | Also, when I click the "delete all candidates" button it does not, in fact, seem to delete all candidates? |
| 16:19:21 | <geekosaur> | that's cloudflare, you need to force it to refresh |
| 16:20:06 | <geekosaur> | curl -X PURGE (url) |
| 16:20:41 | <merijn> | neat |
| 16:22:47 | <merijn> | hmm, why are libraries and dependencies of hidden library components shown on the hackage page? |
| 16:25:25 | <geekosaur> | because it's not very smart |
| 16:25:50 | <geekosaur> | which is I think why it has a link to the cabal file there so you can see what's really going on |
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| 16:38:54 | <merijn> | That's a shame, because it's making it look as if my library has a ton more dependencies than it does |
| 16:39:08 | <merijn> | (because they're all test dependencies) |
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| 16:44:53 | <merijn> | hmm |
| 16:45:07 | <merijn> | Seems like someone made a think-o |
| 16:45:38 | <merijn> | I'm trying to manually upload docs for my library, but it barfs on containing a file with a path that's not legal on windows |
| 16:46:55 | <merijn> | Invalid windows file name in tar archive: |
| 16:46:55 | <merijn> | "broadcast-chan-0.3.0-docs\\conduit\\broadcast-chan:conduit.txt" |
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| 16:48:44 | <merijn> | hmm, the entire doc output seems to be garbage |
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| 16:49:41 | <merijn> | It seems to have only build documentation for a single sub library and uses a naming format that's not legal on windows |
| 16:51:25 | <merijn> | Is there some different/new invocation for haddock that I need to use for multi-library packages? |
| 16:51:48 | <merijn> | I tried to naively just do `cabal haddock --haddock-for-hackage`, but that seems broken |
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| 16:57:14 | <merijn> | I'm so confused, I *see* it building docs for all libraries in the shell output, but only one seems to end up in the final tarball? |
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| 17:05:38 | <merijn> | hmmm, seems it just has docs for the last build sub-library. Can I just naively combine the tar files for each sub-library to get one with everything? |
| 17:07:39 | <geekosaur> | that's a known bug |
| 17:07:51 | <geekosaur> | there's still some issues with sublibraries and docs |
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| 17:08:15 | <geekosaur> | I think master has at least a partial fix that should be in 3.14.2.0 |
| 17:09:49 | <merijn> | So if I try cabal-install HEAD it might work? |
| 17:11:07 | <geekosaur> | right |
| 17:11:28 | <merijn> | lemme try that |
| 17:11:48 | <geekosaur> | https://github.com/haskell/cabal/blob/master/README.md#preview-releases |
| 17:11:57 | <merijn> | because the gain from merging this back into 1 package is too great to postpone this over doc generation :p |
| 17:12:32 | <merijn> | I've been waiting for this glorious moment since, like, 2019 :p |
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| 17:20:08 | <merijn> | geekosaur: That does not seem fixed in HEAD |
| 17:20:49 | <merijn> | I have 3 library components and it seems to build docs for each and then write them out to the exact same path making it a race which docs you actually get |
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| 17:21:13 | <merijn> | It also still includes file names that cause hackage to reject them |
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| 17:34:57 | <merijn> | anyone know what the txt file that `cabal haddock` generates is? Is it just a text representation of the documentation? If yes, how do I stop it from generating that, since it breaks things |
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| 17:45:10 | <merijn> | hmmm, manually fixing up the haddock file still doesn't seem to work. At least, the docs aren't visible on the hackage candidate |
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| 17:45:51 | <merijn> | I'm sure *someone* has succesfully done this, but google is only turning up uselessly out of date result or results for the wrong topic |
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| 17:50:42 | <EvanR> | google smh |
| 17:50:49 | <EvanR> | upgrade to chatGPT |
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| 17:53:09 | <merijn> | I already tried that, but as usual it lies to me |
| 17:53:44 | <merijn> | And haddock-project just seems to error out |
| 18:00:21 | <merijn> | welp, tough shit for users then, no docs for them :p |
| 18:01:41 | <EvanR> | it's open source. Who needs docs |
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| 18:13:37 | <merijn> | If they want docs, they can go fix cabal-install :p |
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| 18:16:01 | <davean> | I thought you uploaded the source code. Thats my prefered docs anyway. |
| 18:16:36 | <merijn> | davean: I'm a nice boy, so I generally upload source *AND* docs :p |
| 18:16:51 | <davean> | documentation and deception? Thats not nice! |
| 18:17:18 | <merijn> | davean: What's not nice is cabal racing my doc generation :p |
| 18:17:52 | <davean> | That is interesting |
| 18:17:57 | <davean> | thats why I started taking a look |
| 18:18:36 | <merijn> | basically with multiple library components it builds docs for each that seem fine (well, it includes a txt file that uses <lib>:<sublib> in the filename which hackage rejects since it's not valid on windows) |
| 18:18:37 | <davean> | I do like how you split up the library |
| 18:19:11 | <merijn> | I need to go for dinner, if you wanna reproduce it, the `unify` branch here shows the issue: https://github.com/merijn/broadcast-chan |
| 18:19:16 | <merijn> | Seems to be present in HEAD too |
| 18:22:24 | <davean> | Thanks. I don't have much time to work on it but I do want to look |
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| 19:41:42 | <merijn> | Entirely unrelatedly: Man, the performance of HLS and cabal is so good |
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| 20:22:55 | <[exa]> | merijn: you meant the .txt which is taken by hoogle as input? |
| 20:23:11 | <merijn> | [exa]: Possibly? |
| 20:23:23 | <[exa]> | does it say "for hoogle" somewhere around the first line? |
| 20:24:33 | <merijn> | [exa]: First line says: "-- Hoogle documentation, generated by Haddock" |
| 20:24:36 | <[exa]> | (I mean the .txt somewhere in doc/html/package-v.e.r.sion-docs/package.txt which is deep in dist-newstyle) |
| 20:24:37 | <merijn> | so, looks like it |
| 20:25:19 | <merijn> | So if I set "hoogle: False" in my cabal config maybe it stops generating that? |
| 20:25:39 | <merijn> | Although my hot take would be that I'd expect cabal to produce acceptable hackage docs even with that set |
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| 20:28:52 | <merijn> | Unrelatedly: Lord, someone please stop me/fix my yak shaving tendencies. I feel compelled to write new SQLite bindings, because direct-sqlite seems to be hanging on by a thread and I'm thinking a more modern API might be nicer... |
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| 20:29:45 | <[exa]> | never tried tbh but looks like hoogle: False should do it |
| 20:30:13 | <merijn> | Then I still have the problem of not getting it to generate docs for every library, though |
| 20:30:14 | <[exa]> | unfortunately --no-hoogle seems lacking in both haddock and cabal so no way to kill it explicitly |
| 20:30:35 | <EvanR> | Imagining a combination meme of merijn doing The Mask "Somebody STOP me!" |
| 20:31:33 | <[exa]> | like, yak shaving ain't bad |
| 20:31:35 | <TMA> | merijn: contrariwise! doing something you don't exactly immediately need is the way of making progress... into The Great Swamp of Despair |
| 20:32:02 | <[exa]> | last time I did a rdf triple store out of pure urge to shave that |
| 20:32:09 | <geekosaur> | file a bug for that, both the absence of the option and that it happens in the first place (hoogledbs are supposed to be local, nothing related to them should ever be in an sdist) |
| 20:32:22 | <merijn> | [exa]: The problem is that I wanted to hack together something quick to solve a work problem, but since it's not a FOR WORK problem I can't do it on company time |
| 20:32:52 | <merijn> | [exa]: So rebuilding the entire Haskell SQLite stack from first-principles, while great in principle, is not conducive to me getting a working solution to my actual problem :p |
| 20:32:57 | <EvanR> | if the problem is the API, maybe make a wrapper |
| 20:33:10 | <EvanR> | if the problem is the library functionality itself, maybe fix the library |
| 20:33:18 | <merijn> | EvanR: The problem is that it's not keeping up aggressively enough with SQLite :) |
| 20:33:23 | <[exa]> | merijn: I still read that it's technically FOR WORK |
| 20:33:55 | <EvanR> | make it keep up aggressively |
| 20:33:58 | <merijn> | [exa]: Well, it's more that I am terrible at tracking my time spent on various projects, meaning it's a nightmware to write hours on projects at the end of the day :p |
| 20:34:34 | <EvanR> | take the git commit timestamp and interpolate an exponential decaying tail of time leading up to it, and integrate |
| 20:34:47 | <merijn> | EvanR: The problem is that it uses hsc, which is annoying to work with, and it seems like you could outsource 95% of the work to CApiFFI and I'd rather maintain that :p |
| 20:34:49 | <EvanR> | and log 350 hours a day of work |
| 20:35:20 | <EvanR> | does this chain of "The problem is" terminate? |
| 20:35:42 | <merijn> | EvanR: Yes, at SQLite itself, which is glorious and without fault and I love it uncondtionally :p |
| 20:35:52 | <[exa]> | EvanR: ...then pipe through GPT to make the 350h look like a LLM glitch, all done |
| 20:35:54 | <EvanR> | then I have a better idea |
| 20:36:03 | <EvanR> | use SQLite (in C) |
| 20:36:06 | <merijn> | EvanR: Marry SQLite and have it's baby? |
| 20:36:11 | <EvanR> | basically |
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| 20:38:34 | <EvanR> | (a statistical filter that converts git logs into timesheets for billing sounds... just stupid enough to work) |
| 20:38:37 | <merijn> | At any rate, my main problem is that most time tracking tools seem to "frontload" the organising/attribution of time, so switching tasks becomes very burdensome. Even more so when they're in custom applications or browsers which mean I have to *gasp* use the mouse. So I just want to build something that lets me quickly type a command and some free text labels about what I'm doing so starting, switching, |
| 20:38:43 | <merijn> | etc. is a single terminal command and no mouse, and then enrich/attribute that time to projects *later*. |
| 20:39:05 | <EvanR> | (the more commits there are the more accurate it gets) |
| 20:39:28 | <joeyadams> | CApiFFI seems interesting. One fun thing I learned about hsc2hs is that virus scanners *really* don't like programs that use every win32 function, such as the win32 package. |
| 20:40:00 | <joeyadams> | Had an interesting chat with my boss (who has never heard of Haskell) why this mysterious program named "cabal" was flagging the virus scanner on my work laptop. |
| 20:40:07 | <merijn> | joeyadams: CApiFFI is great, the main "problem" it has is that it was "too new" when direct-sqlite and stuff was actively hacked on |
| 20:40:51 | <EvanR> | you're reporting so many problems now I'm starting to get incredulous |
| 20:40:51 | <merijn> | But by now it's been in GHC for over a decade so I think it's safe to say "screw anyone who can't work with it" :p |
| 20:41:28 | <merijn> | EvanR: That last one isn't a problem and more a "description" of why it's not being used :p |
| 20:41:31 | <EvanR> | are all problems equally weighted (in lieu of suspecting some of them don't really exist) |
| 20:42:22 | <[exa]> | merijn: re time tracking, didn't some of these pomodoro timer tools do that? I recall one that actually asked what you're doing, which is for me WAY more reliable than trying to remember to run that single terminal command |
| 20:42:29 | <joeyadams> | merijn: What if you simply rewrite the direct-sqlite FFI bindings to use CApiFFI? I did a lot of work on this module (10 years ago) to separate those out. |
| 20:43:17 | <merijn> | joeyadams: Sure, but I think iff I do significant work on it, I probably just want to also do something like base it on ResourceT |
| 20:44:03 | <joeyadams> | If CApiFFI is better, why not contribute that to direct-sqlite, then write your interface on top of Database.SQLite3.Bindings or Database.SQLite3.Direct ? |
| 20:44:53 | <merijn> | joeyadams: Your doing a lousy job at convincing me not to yak shave :p |
| 20:45:31 | <joeyadams> | I'm the devil on your left shoulder. |
| 20:45:49 | <EvanR> | optimize for long term maintainability |
| 20:46:16 | <EvanR> | not yak hair per second xD |
| 20:46:23 | <merijn> | EvanR: I already got that part down |
| 20:46:38 | <merijn> | I just realised some libraries I wrote are now a decade old :O |
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| 20:47:01 | <EvanR> | are you The Doctor now |
| 20:47:16 | <merijn> | No, just A Doctor :p |
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| 21:04:21 | <mauke> | I once had a cute idea for a silly little haskell library |
| 21:04:41 | <mauke> | and now it's 17 years old and has 841 direct, 14225 indirect reverse dependencies |
| 21:04:57 | <merijn> | mauke: ;) |
| 21:05:05 | <c_wraith> | I once wrote a library because I didn't like a blog post. |
| 21:05:07 | <merijn> | Which lib is that? |
| 21:05:15 | <c_wraith> | much to my surprise, that library even has a user now. |
| 21:05:19 | <mauke> | data-default |
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| 21:05:49 | <jle`> | my libraries had a user once |
| 21:05:59 | <merijn> | c_wraith: I wrote a library because some GHC maintainers thought my suggestion was silly and no one would want that |
| 21:06:19 | <merijn> | c_wraith: Only to a decade later which the GHC list discuss how to implement what I asked for |
| 21:06:37 | <merijn> | Clearly I'm a prophetic visionary with impeccable taste |
| 21:06:40 | <c_wraith> | I wish I could convince the GHC maintainers that a function crashing with the non-threaded runtime is in fact a bug. |
| 21:06:51 | <jle`> | lisan al gaib |
| 21:07:00 | <merijn> | c_wraith: People still using the non-threaded runtime is a bug ;) |
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| 21:07:24 | <c_wraith> | as a library author, you don't get to choose the runtime. |
| 21:07:48 | <c_wraith> | you just get to hack around one function always crashing when the non-threaded runtime is chosen. With code that should just be in the library |
| 21:08:10 | <jle`> | what if you added -threaded to your library cabal stanza |
| 21:08:14 | <jle`> | (/s) |
| 21:08:21 | <merijn> | c_wraith: Which function is crashing? |
| 21:08:29 | <EvanR> | library best viewed in internet explorer |
| 21:09:29 | <c_wraith> | merijn: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stm-2.5.3.1/docs/Control-Concurrent-STM-TVar.html#v:registerDelay |
| 21:09:46 | <merijn> | oof |
| 21:10:28 | <c_wraith> | it's just not implemented with the non-threaded runtime. I suggested an implementation and was told "that's a feature request, not a bug" |
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| 21:16:58 | <mauke> | is a changelog an extra-source-file or an extra-doc-file? |
| 21:17:06 | <mauke> | prior art seems split on this point |
| 21:17:07 | <merijn> | extra-doc-file |
| 21:17:30 | <merijn> | mauke: extra-source-file predates extra-doc-file (which wasn't really popularised enough) |
| 21:17:54 | <merijn> | mauke: The one thing that should easily clinch the argument for you: extra-source-file changes invalidate the build cache |
| 21:18:03 | <mauke> | yeah, just found that |
| 21:18:05 | <merijn> | extra-doc-files do not |
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| 21:19:37 | <mauke> | love discovering cutting edge features from 2013 |
| 21:20:08 | <merijn> | mauke: Same ;) |
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| 21:20:20 | <merijn> | mauke: I only discovered due to modern cabal's warning about it xD |
| 21:20:28 | <merijn> | like, yesterday |
| 21:21:09 | <mauke> | haha |
| 21:22:24 | <mauke> | how do I tell 'cabal check' to verify that my changelog contains an entry for the current version? |
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| 21:25:51 | <davean> | https://github.com/haskell/cabal/blob/d93f06606cef7ff1df24c88488a9a706e5af770f/cabal-install/src/Distribution/Client/Check.hs#L58 |
| 21:27:13 | <mauke> | ? |
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| 21:43:14 | <merijn> | mauke: Not sure it can do that? |
| 21:45:10 | <mauke> | :-( |
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| 21:48:15 | <davean> | mauke: you tell it by adding the code there :) |
| 21:48:48 | <davean> | That is outside the default scope for check, its clearly a warning level feature though |
| 21:50:26 | <mauke> | I was hoping cabal would be extensible |
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| 22:00:44 | <geekosaur> | starting to happen but not there yet |
| 22:01:14 | <geekosaur> | (external commands are implemented but there's not currently a plan for extending existing ones) |
| 22:03:36 | <davean> | mauke: why not contribute it back as a warning for everyone? |
| 22:03:54 | <davean> | It seems worse to have it as a local thing for just yourself. |
| 22:03:59 | <davean> | Its a good warning |
| 22:05:40 | <geekosaur> | I think the main complaint would be that it would require cabal to impose some structure on changelogs so it could recognize whether it was there or not |
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| 22:06:26 | <davean> | Yes but there *is* infact a standard |
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| 22:09:31 | <davean> | Well, specificly 2, but you can tell them appart by file name. |
| 22:10:05 | <davean> | Also, frankly, I doubt anyone keeps the GNU style guide one. |
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| 22:34:28 | <mauke> | davean: what standards are you talking about? |
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| 23:04:22 | <jackdk> | I think he means things like https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Style-of-Change-Logs |
| 23:09:26 | <mauke> | as usual with gnu, that "standard" is nuts |
| 23:10:30 | <mauke> | and (in practical terms) useless as a changes file |
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| 23:14:28 | <davean> | mauke: the other one is https://keepachangelog.com/en/1.1.0/ but usually https://common-changelog.org/ which is what most tools process |
| 23:14:35 | <davean> | As I said I dobut anyone does the GNU one. |
| 23:14:38 | <davean> | It is infact dumb |
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| 23:23:35 | <mauke> | only one of those specifies a format, and it is incompatible with hackage |
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| 23:32:36 | <juri_> | there's also a debian changelog specification, for package changelogs. |
| 23:36:47 | <davean> | Oh from memory I thought that was a specification of the GNU one |
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| 23:46:42 | <juri_> | it's a bit more specialized. https://manpages.debian.org/testing/dpkg-dev/deb-changelog.5.en.html |
All times are in UTC on 2025-03-16.