Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2025-03-18 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:01:23 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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00:17:03 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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00:33:00 × Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
00:34:51 <mauke> #define DEFSTRUCT(X) typedef struct X X; struct X
00:35:25 alfiee joins (~alfiee@user/alfiee)
00:37:03 <monochrom> I have trouble telling that apart from DESTRUCT :)
00:40:07 × alfiee quits (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
00:40:57 × tabaqui quits (~tabaqui@167.71.80.236) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
00:41:04 × euleritian quits (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-132-052.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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00:51:03 <Axman6> thats how I read it too
00:51:28 <geekosaur> is that wrong? 😈
00:52:30 × euleritian quits (~euleritia@ip5f5ad695.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
00:52:39 <EvanR> upgrade to DEFSTRUCT(4)
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00:52:53 × sprotte24 quits (~sprotte24@p200300d16f275800a1de62e3bbd83239.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving)
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00:54:41 euleritian joins (~euleritia@95.90.214.149)
00:54:42 × acidjnk quits (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f06b15130e44e471244.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
00:55:12 × euleritian quits (~euleritia@95.90.214.149) (Remote host closed the connection)
00:56:14 <int-e> it's perfectly accurate; it allows you to use `X` without `struct`, so it de-structs it.
00:56:34 euleritian joins (~euleritia@ip5f5ad695.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
00:57:56 × euleritian quits (~euleritia@ip5f5ad695.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
00:58:24 euleritian joins (~euleritia@95.90.214.149)
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00:59:35 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
01:00:26 <geekosaur> I think EvanR confused it with "define constructor" 😈
01:00:28 euleritian joins (~euleritia@95.90.214.149)
01:01:28 <monochrom> oh yeah hehe, so that's why I was thinking "do you mean defcon 4?"
01:03:43 <yin> and yet
01:03:48 <yin> :t takeWhile
01:03:48 <lambdabot> (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
01:03:52 <yin> :t takeUntil
01:03:53 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: takeUntil
01:04:25 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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01:11:21 <jackdk> takeUntil = takeWhile . (not .)
01:11:22 <EvanR> takeYet takeNevertheless takeAlongside takeDespite...
01:11:44 <EvanR> the API has only scratched the surface
01:14:31 <jackdk> takeAsLongAsIFeelLikeIt
01:15:04 <EvanR> getTheeHence
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09:17:48 <merijn> Quick poll: What are people's favourite functional pearls? I'm trying to find some good stuff for our juniors to read
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09:28:08 <Leary> merijn: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1chgo7x/what_are_some_research_papers_that_every/
09:31:59 <mauke> merijn: Implicit Configurations
09:32:06 <mauke> because I can actually understand it
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09:33:42 <c_wraith> lazy level-order tree renumbering
09:34:45 <dminuoso> Mmm, I have an exception with an instance `ErrorAnnotation p => Exception (ValueSpecMismatch p)` for which a bunch of `instance ErrorAnnotation ...` exist.
09:35:39 <dminuoso> Now, I want to write a `catch` handler that will catch any of these, it seems like I would have to write `handleValueSpecMismatch :: exists p. ErrorAnnotation p *> ValueSpecMismatch p -> IO a`
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09:37:30 <dminuoso> Is there a way to accomplish this, without using catches and enumerating a handler for each ErrorAnnotation instance?
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09:40:23 <c_wraith> Not really. It's all built on top of Typeable, and Typeable checks for equality between two concrete types
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09:42:40 <c_wraith> You could use some TH hackery to make it build you a list of all instances (that are currently in scope) automatically, though
09:42:45 <dminuoso> So I guess the library is at fault for not hiding this constraint inside a GADT?
09:43:29 <c_wraith> If it intended for you to match against all of them uniformly... yes
09:44:28 <dminuoso> Mmm fair enough. Thanks
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09:58:53 <c_wraith> I guess the Exception class is a little more sophisticated. You just need to be able to write a SomeException -> e function
10:00:39 <c_wraith> You could use Typeable to see if the type matches the top level type constructor, ignoring the argument.
10:01:02 <c_wraith> But if you do that, you lose the ErrorAnnotation instance
10:01:13 <c_wraith> So... Who knows if it's sufficient
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10:20:15 <dminuoso> That would be sufficient for my usecase actually
10:20:36 <dminuoso> I mean given what Im doing this is more a theoretical discussion
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10:57:40 <merijn> mauke: I'll have a look :) I always quite liked Ghosts of Departed Proofs too
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13:34:03 <ski> merijn : "A Poor Man's Concurrency Monad" in 1999-05 at <https://web.archive.org/web/20070305025415/http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~koen/pubs/jfp99-monad.ps>,"Parallel Parsing Processes" in 2004 at <https://web.archive.org/web/20061012125410/http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~koen/pubs/jfp04-parser.ps>, by Koen Claessen, are two that i remember
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17:11:06 <EvanR> is there a paper or document or something which has an overview of GHC's modern compilation strategy, including how it deals with machine arithmetic, unboxing, etc. All the old books on graph reduction seem... old
17:11:39 <EvanR> is it all in SPJ's mind locked away
17:11:57 <EvanR> do we have to go in there like inception
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17:22:39 <monochrom> It is not even SPJ's mind necessarily. It's very likely someone else's minds.
17:23:08 <monochrom> But yeah it's locked in minds or buried deeply in source code.
17:23:55 <monochrom> OK OK, + or scattered over multiple papers that each partially supercede each other.
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17:24:43 <geekosaur> if I had to guess, it's in a whole bunch of scattered [Note]s throughout the ghc codebase
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17:24:47 monochrom has the push-apply thing in mind.
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17:26:31 <monochrom> Reminds me of the mythical story about Osiris. >:)
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17:44:12 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> EvanR the GHC wisdom is scattered over the world but there are new papers that implement some of those concepts
17:45:18 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3674654 deals with unboxing and some machine stuff
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17:46:53 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> The compiler itself is a good reference of Core https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.6.1/docs/GHC-Core.html, which links to https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/system-f-with-type-equality-coercions/
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17:48:05 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> And https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/implementing-lazy-functional-languages-on-stock-hardware-the-spineless-tagless-g-machine/ is a good resource on STG
17:50:04 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Nowadays, probably doing some magic on a first order STLC can get you nice results tho, namely, some superset of the object language of https://andraskovacs.github.io/pdfs/2ltt_icfp24.pdf should be simple enough to translate to assembly
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17:51:23 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> To translate a language into first order, you need defunctionalization. Here's the best one I know https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3591260
17:52:28 <monochrom> I think EvanR has already seen the STG paper. But it doesn't cover any development since then (and there are a lot).
17:52:54 <monochrom> or s/paper/papers, books, etc./
17:53:13 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Yeah those are really old
17:53:58 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Haven't seen books on full functional language compiler implementations that appeared after the 2000s
17:54:43 <monochrom> I don't think GHC does defunctionalization. It goes eval-apply or push-enter (I forgot which one is older and which one is current).
17:55:17 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> I mentioned that because of the alternative compilation route via a first order language
17:55:51 <EvanR> re: magic on first order STLC, is this your original research or an actual thing happening
17:56:34 <EvanR> I'm getting the impression there's alot of new ideas too, not necessarily implemented
17:56:48 <EvanR> making "what is GHC actually doing now" more of a question
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17:57:01 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> A random thought that happened to cross my mind based on the paper by Kovacs I linked
17:57:43 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> First order STLC doesn't look too different from various IRs like QBE or LLVM IR
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18:00:08 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Specially if parts of it were generated with single-purpose optimizers, like https://www.fing.edu.uy/inco/proyectos/fusion/
18:00:36 <geekosaur> see the "making a fast curry" paper re eval/apply vs. push/enter
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18:03:30 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Also tangentially related but Perceus seems to be okay-ish without extensions https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/1anyq4j/can_reference_counting_really_be_as_competitive/, extensions make it good tho https://lptk.github.io/files/ctrc-2024-05-09.pdf
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18:26:20 <EvanR> geekosaur, yeah I've read it. Then I was like, what does GHC actually do now?
18:26:26 <EvanR> is it up to date
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18:27:48 <EvanR> maybe the wiki has the latest
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19:02:21 <geekosaur> the paper says they were trialing it; it has since adopted it fully
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19:02:42 <geekosaur> I don't think there's a lot of tuning in that choice
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19:10:49 <dminuoso> Is there a library that using TH or generics takes two values of a given data type and produces a structural diff, denoting how/where they are different?
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19:13:16 <EvanR> how different are a left and right infinite tree xD
19:13:22 <geekosaur> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gdiff https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tree-diff ?
19:16:38 <dminuoso> geekosaur: Mmm, while it looks a bit thick it contained a pointer to an older simpler package https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gdiff-1.1/
19:16:41 <dminuoso> So I think that helped. Thanks
19:17:15 <geekosaur> I pointed to that too (two URLs there)
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19:17:34 <dminuoso> Oh, I did not even see. Thanks
19:17:51 <dminuoso> My mind pretty much always skips to the end of an URL
19:18:10 <dminuoso> And then I scan backwards until I see an https.
19:18:12 <dminuoso> :-)
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All times are in UTC on 2025-03-18.