Logs on 2025-03-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 04:27:24 | <Axman6> | Which parsing library would youse use for parsing binary protocols today? I would usually look at attoparsec, but it's definitely more aimed at textual parsing. Binary is possibly ok, but I'm wondering if there's any other options these days |
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| 04:28:35 | <Axman6> | (I'm Australian, youse is an important word in our culture) |
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| 04:43:12 | <jackdk> | Axman6: I think youz'll find that it's spelt "yooz" |
| 04:43:33 | <Axman6> | bloody bogans |
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| 04:46:56 | <jackdk> | I usually consider attoparsec suitable for binary formats. Last time I did binary parsing I used package `binary` over `cereal` but I couldn't tell you why. Maybe the more recent upload date? |
| 04:47:47 | <Axman6> | A big thing that was missing was parsing integers of fixed sizes and endianesses, which I'm sure surprises me every timeI try to use it for binary parsing |
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| 04:49:19 | <jackdk> | I wonder if https://hackage.haskell.org/package/attoparsec-binary-0.2 still works? Some very ambitious bounds and a 2012 upload date |
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| 04:53:57 | <jackdk> | Huh, I found a 3.5yo PR of mine against cereal still open, perhaps that's why I switched to `binary`. |
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| 05:49:34 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> IIRC flatparse can work with binary stuff, but not sure how good it is at that |
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| 07:14:16 | <dminuoso> | Axman6: I would use flatparse without hesitation. |
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| 07:14:54 | <dminuoso> | It's has ultra high performance, has simple and yet powerful error/backtracking powers, and can be interleaved with IO easily. |
| 07:15:07 | <dminuoso> | And none of the typeclass nonsense. |
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| 07:18:27 | <dminuoso> | (Or you can even run it over ST if you want) |
| 07:19:02 | <dminuoso> | s/would use/do use/ |
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| 07:43:25 | <Axman6> | Hmm, that looks good, and I think I looked into it, though it doesn't appear to support incremental parsing right? I'm not sure if I need that, but it would be nice |
| 07:43:37 | <Axman6> | I think there's a 70% chance I will need that actually |
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| 07:49:21 | <Axman6> | But it might also be possible to just repeatedly run a parser |
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| 09:12:09 | <dminuoso> | Axman6: Can you refine a bit your idea of incremental parsing? |
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| 09:12:56 | <Axman6> | being able to indicate that the parser has consumed the input its been given and then continue by feeding in more chunks |
| 09:13:39 | <jackdk> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/attoparsec-0.14.4/docs/Data-Attoparsec-ByteString.html#t:IResult Like the `Partial` constructor in attoparsec's result type |
| 09:14:05 | <dminuoso> | Ah okay, flatparse has no builtin support for streaming currently. |
| 09:15:09 | <dminuoso> | It can deal with unconsumed input, so you have some options to resume parsing with that. |
| 09:15:24 | <dminuoso> | But it cannot deal with missing input |
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| 09:16:07 | <dminuoso> | Which could still be fine, if you're fine with retrying every time you have a new chunk until you can do partial parses |
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| 09:19:26 | <dminuoso> | It's an interesting thought, I think we could easily build this into flatparse from a technical perspective |
| 09:19:56 | <dminuoso> | Retaining compatibility with existing code that builds manual parsers should be doable with pattern synonyms |
| 09:20:52 | <dminuoso> | But it does mean tragging an continuation through all the parsers. So I guess the main concern would be whether that would degrade performance |
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| 11:19:11 | <[exa]> | morning all! is there some canonical good way to make argmax-style functions in repa? (e.g., given a matrix, which column index has the maximum in each row?) I thought this would be pretty obvious from documentation but I'm struggling to find anything relatable. |
| 11:19:41 | <[exa]> | (except for implementing this very manually with Repa.transpose, but that doesn't seem to nest quite right) |
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| 11:20:00 | <[exa]> | s/transpose/traverse/ oops |
| 11:21:16 | <[exa]> | I thought about 1] use traverse to add indices and 2] use fold to find the maxima 3] then strip indices again, but would love to have this somewhat confirmed as a way to go |
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| 11:29:23 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: zipping with fromFunction to add indices is probably faster than traverse |
| 11:30:15 | <tomsmeding> | oh I misread 'traverse', perhaps it's roughly the same thing in the end |
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| 11:32:06 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: but yes from looking at the docs I wouldn't be surprised if that's the way to go |
| 11:34:47 | <tomsmeding> | pity that repa doesn't seem to have a commutative fold primitive |
| 11:35:40 | <tomsmeding> | (fold with a commutative (and cheap, vectorisable) operator can be multiple times as fast as a fold with a merely associative operator) |
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| 11:36:40 | <tomsmeding> | but perhaps in this case because it's a normal haskell function, things aren't vectorised anyway, so it doesn't matter much |
| 11:41:49 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: for curiosity, why repa and not massiv? (I have used neither, but I was under the impression that massiv was more recent) |
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| 11:52:58 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, have you ever used brick with images? |
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| 12:39:08 | <__monty__> | Fair warning, image support is very terminal emulator dependent. |
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| 12:52:38 | <lxsameer> | __monty__: thank you, I'm aware of that |
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| 17:40:12 | <EvanR> | the main data type in GHC.Core is data Expr b = ... where it says b is the type of binder. Which it uses directly in the lambda and case constructors. So the Expr is tagged with a type in the host language? Then reviewing the whole type, it seems odd there is no way to change the b deeper in the expression tree |
| 17:40:33 | <EvanR> | if there's a sublambda, it'll have the same b as the top level lambda? |
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| 19:18:11 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: thanks a lot! re massiv, in the end repa seems somewhat more lightweight&transparent but no strong opinion in there |
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| 20:15:35 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: look at `type CoreExpr = Expr CoreBndr` |
| 20:15:44 | <tomsmeding> | that b is the type of variable references |
| 20:16:10 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: I see! |
| 20:16:32 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: ok I rechecked the massiv guide just now and now I can't really tell whats the main difference between the packages :D |
| 20:16:40 | <tomsmeding> | they look similar to me too |
| 20:16:45 | <tomsmeding> | probably in the details there are differences |
| 20:17:06 | <EvanR> | I see, it's not any old type |
| 20:17:15 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: massiv seems to have a few more representation types? |
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| 20:18:39 | <[exa]> | yeah all searches basically say "a little richer and more maintained" |
| 20:18:47 | <[exa]> | ok good, sold, thanks! |
| 20:19:55 | <tomsmeding> | repa is definitely not being actively maintained |
| 20:20:06 | <tomsmeding> | not sure it _matters_ so much if it works |
| 20:20:51 | <tomsmeding> | wait a sec repa has updates? TIL |
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| 20:27:06 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: looks a bit weird there, github says last release 4.1.0.1 in 2015, hackage has 3.4.2.0 as latest |
| 20:27:37 | [exa] | confused |
| 20:27:41 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps they didn't create github tags for the releases? |
| 20:27:58 | <[exa]> | nah more like they didn't release on hackage |
| 20:28:06 | <tomsmeding> | uh |
| 20:28:12 | <tomsmeding> | isn't it hackage that has the new versions? |
| 20:28:36 | <tomsmeding> | oh |
| 20:28:38 | <tomsmeding> | wait |
| 20:28:46 | <[exa]> | didn't look to me like that but maybe 3.4 is newer than 4.1 because of some versioning LTS strategy or what |
| 20:28:47 | <tomsmeding> | this is highly confusing |
| 20:29:15 | <[exa]> | well |
| 20:29:17 | <[exa]> | https://groups.google.com/g/haskell-repa/c/ULjCQC8nJL8 |
| 20:29:27 | <tomsmeding> | ok those github releases just make no sense, perhaps? |
| 20:30:08 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 20:30:16 | <[exa]> | I'm confused all the way to massiv now |
| 20:30:36 | <tomsmeding> | I don't think this is a reason to move from repa though, however many others there may be |
| 20:30:48 | <tomsmeding> | it seems maintained with a new release just a few months ago |
| 20:30:58 | <tomsmeding> | that 4.1.0.1 release on github was an experiment, apparently |
| 20:31:08 | <tomsmeding> | with 3.4 being the main branch |
| 20:31:10 | <[exa]> | yes they're on this trac thing, not github |
| 20:31:40 | <tomsmeding> | those remarks about vectorisation apply just as well to massiv |
| 20:32:35 | <tomsmeding> | any array library in haskell with higher-order operations like map/fold/scan/etc. will not be super-fast |
| 20:33:05 | <tomsmeding> | first-order operations like sum, add-two-arrays-elementwise, multiply-two-arrays-elementwise, etc. can be fast just fine by writing and FFI'ing in some C code |
| 20:33:12 | <tomsmeding> | hmatrix does that |
| 20:33:53 | <tomsmeding> | accelerate retains the higher-order array operations (SOACs, in the lingo in the field) but ceases being a "normal" library, being a deeply embedded DSL instead |
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| 20:34:32 | <tomsmeding> | to get around the fact that GHC is not good at compiling fast numerical code |
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| 20:35:20 | <tomsmeding> | I'm hacking on something that can be seen as a competitor to hmatrix, but it's not stable enough yet |
| 20:37:24 | <[exa]> | that would be great tbh |
| 20:37:49 | <[exa]> | like, for numerical things I still just go to julia |
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| 20:38:23 | <[exa]> | this above is the first attempt because I want a few computers to talk to each other about what they compute and I don't see myself debugging this without usable types |
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| 20:46:36 | <tomsmeding> | protip: if you are having computers talk to each other about what they compute, you should instead say "I'm doing distributed computing", that sounds cooler |
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| 20:51:24 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Even better if you call it a "HPC cluster" |
| 20:51:24 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Or smth like |
| 20:51:59 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: it doesn't really classify, it's got a centralized coordinator and I ignore any failure etc. |
| 20:52:57 | <[exa]> | "distributed computing" somehow means to me "I'm proud that my programs can resynchronize after 6 years of lag and the user doesn't notice the outage" |
| 20:53:08 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Its a still cluster, just a bad one |
| 20:53:28 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Kubernetes is "distributed computing" and kubernetes barely works on a single node let alone 30 |
| 20:53:31 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: that just means you have standards |
| 20:53:33 | <davean> | Just because you suck at it doesn't mean you aren't doing it. Actualyl being failure tolerant is usaully a good strategy |
| 20:53:36 | <[exa]> | I'm okay with "bad cluster computing" |
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| 20:53:44 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Lmao |
| 20:54:15 | <[exa]> | c'mon guys I have standards, the comparison to kubes hurt :D |
| 20:54:48 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Hey if your things works without requiring a Phd in it, its already surpassed k8s |
| 20:54:51 | <davean> | magic_rb: Everyone knows LPC is healthier for you |
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| 20:55:27 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> You dont like the sound of whirring servers and harddrives ?? Weird |
| 20:55:51 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Its what i play when im trying to fall asleep, (unironically) |
| 20:56:13 | <[exa]> | davean: somehow I first read that as "being failure tolerant as a distributed computing user is a good strategy". Which is truly eternal. |
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| 21:13:20 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: btw anything specific in that hmatrix-like package? |
| 21:13:32 | [exa] | looking forward |
| 21:14:10 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: it tries to be fancy in ways that you probably don't need, but you made me have a stab at separating out the core array routines (which are sometimes faster than hmatrix by little more than having a clue how C compilers work) |
| 21:15:13 | <tomsmeding> | the full thing is essentially Data.Vector.Unbox, but with multidimensional arrays, and support for nested arrays (as long as they are all the same shape, so it's fairly restricted) |
| 21:15:47 | <tomsmeding> | and also it has a rank-typed array type (type-indexed by a Nat), a shape-typed array type (type-indexed by [Nat]) and a mixed one that generalises the two (type-indexed by [Maybe Nat]) |
| 21:15:57 | <tomsmeding> | and you can use them intermixed |
| 21:16:12 | <tomsmeding> | the result is that the API for shapes and indices is verbose and a little awkward |
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| 21:16:38 | <tomsmeding> | because there's like 6 different things floating around ({index,shape} for {ranked,shaped,mixed} array) |
| 21:17:16 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: it's here but no guarantees whatsoever about stability https://git.tomsmeding.com/ox-arrays |
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| 21:21:50 | <tomsmeding> | `tail (scanr (*) 1 sh)` "Warning: This is a partial function" |
| 21:22:10 | <tomsmeding> | I bloody KNOW |
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| 21:22:54 | <tomsmeding> | I have complained about this before but you can't even disable this warning with an OPTIONS easily because it's a very new warning and then you get a warning about "unknown warning" on non-bleeding-edge GHCs |
| 21:24:07 | <tomsmeding> | ah yes you could {-# OPTIONS_GHC -Wno-unrecognised-warning-flags -Wno-x-partial #-} |
| 21:24:52 | <EvanR> | there's a warning about partial functions now? |
| 21:24:56 | <EvanR> | generally? |
| 21:24:59 | <EvanR> | interesting |
| 21:25:01 | <tomsmeding> | no, for head and tail specifically |
| 21:25:04 | <EvanR> | oh |
| 21:25:06 | <tomsmeding> | it's stupid |
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| 21:25:20 | <EvanR> | head and tail are the classic "hold my beer I know what I'm doing" functions |
| 21:25:29 | <EvanR> | a warning label would be obnoxious! |
| 21:25:36 | <tomsmeding> | it only helps super green programmers |
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| 21:26:16 | <tomsmeding> | probably this was suppose to be a lint, but hlint is too opinionated and there's no alternative, so they squirmed their way to a warning in base |
| 21:26:47 | <EvanR> | give me all or nothing |
| 21:26:57 | <EvanR> | warn me about every partial function ever please |
| 21:27:01 | <EvanR> | or shut the hell up xD |
| 21:27:26 | <tomsmeding> | https://github.com/haskell/core-libraries-committee/issues/87 |
| 21:28:41 | <tomsmeding> | I don't want `drop 1`, I want `tail`, because if the list is empty, something is seriously broken and I want to know about it |
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| 21:29:13 | <haskellbridge> | <Jade> what's hindering you from using "NonEmpty" |
| 21:30:04 | <EvanR> | if you have a list you know is non-empty, then converting it to NonEmpty just so you can use head or tail won't help |
| 21:30:15 | <EvanR> | since that conversion has an impossible case, just kicking the can down the road |
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| 21:30:23 | <tomsmeding> | Jade: I have a list and I want tail (scanr (*) 1 list), how do I use nonempty? |
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| 21:31:03 | <EvanR> | :t scanr1 |
| 21:31:04 | <lambdabot> | (a -> a -> a) -> [a] -> [a] |
| 21:31:09 | <EvanR> | hmm |
| 21:31:15 | <tomsmeding> | if you're idealistic about totality (which is okay), it's scanr that you should tackle here |
| 21:31:16 | <EvanR> | wrong direction |
| 21:31:20 | <tomsmeding> | yep |
| 21:31:44 | <tomsmeding> | this is sometimes called prescanr, but Data.List doesn't have it |
| 21:32:02 | <EvanR> | scanr :: Foldable f => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> f a -> NonEmpty b |
| 21:32:32 | <haskellbridge> | <Jade> "Data.List.NonEmpty" has "scanr :: Foldable f => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> f a -> NonEmpty b" |
| 21:33:03 | <EvanR> | and then |
| 21:33:06 | <tomsmeding> | ah! |
| 21:33:07 | <EvanR> | tail :: NonEmpty a -> [a] |
| 21:33:10 | <EvanR> | I guess |
| 21:33:11 | <tomsmeding> | yep, nice |
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| 21:33:20 | <tomsmeding> | okay that works |
| 21:34:10 | <EvanR> | the code for scanr internally does fromList |
| 21:34:16 | <EvanR> | which crashes on an empty list xD |
| 21:34:21 | <EvanR> | but I guess we don't need to know that |
| 21:34:29 | <tomsmeding> | but it's encapsulated in a safe API, much of FP is like that |
| 21:34:35 | <tomsmeding> | it's the premise of ST |
| 21:34:59 | <EvanR> | I was hoping it would just write scanr without doing that |
| 21:35:08 | <EvanR> | but performance |
| 21:35:12 | <[exa]> | the tail&head warnings are not super useful for newbies tbh |
| 21:35:28 | <tomsmeding> | if they aren't, then who _are_ they useful for |
| 21:35:53 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: the ox arrays look cool thanks |
| 21:36:05 | <EvanR> | the API is safe because of an invisible proof about the implementation, but if it was written slightly different the proof would not be invisible |
| 21:36:14 | <EvanR> | and would be checked by the compiler |
| 21:36:47 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps people have rewrite RULES on Data.List.scanr and delegating to that preserves the RULES' effect? |
| 21:37:12 | <EvanR> | it does look like a rewritable thing as is |
| 21:37:28 | <EvanR> | unsafe stages in the processing are faster! |
| 21:37:44 | <EvanR> | xD |
| 21:38:49 | <tomsmeding> | INTERCAL vibes, except "unsafe" makes your code faster |
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| 23:29:38 | <yin> | TIL i can specify package names in import statements |
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| 23:30:01 | <yin> | and that "this" is a reserved name |
| 23:32:29 | <tomsmeding> | yin: is "this" a reserved name? Are you sure you did not end up in C++ accidentally? |
| 23:34:19 | <int-e> | "The special package name this can be used to refer to the current package being built." |
| 23:34:32 | <int-e> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/package_qualified_imports.html#package-qualified-imports |
| 23:34:53 | <tomsmeding> | ah, for packages -- TIL |
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| 23:36:52 | <yin> | i'm not sure of anything these days |
| 23:38:30 | <int-e> | . o O ( I doubt, therefore I might be. ) |
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| 23:45:05 | <yin> | as the area of your knowledge grows, so does the perimeter with ignorance |
| 23:46:35 | <EvanR> | with great power comes great I²R |
| 23:47:30 | <int-e> | hmm drop the linearity and you might have a light bulb moment |
| 23:48:06 | int-e | ohms and coughs ;-) |
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| 23:52:45 | <yin> | resistence is futile |
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| 23:56:26 | <yin> | we should stay grounded and avoid heated arguments |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-03-19.