Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2025-03-20 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:28 × zenstoic quits (uid461840@id-461840.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
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01:06:14 <monochrom> impedance > resistance >:)
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05:00:13 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> "rapid" is underrated
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07:03:53 <[exa]> hm, is there some simple/recommended way to read a bunch of Storables from a file?
07:04:58 <[exa]> e.g. something like `hReadStorable :: Storable a => Handle -> IO a` or so
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07:07:34 <[exa]> ok, `storablevector` pretty much does it, great :)
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08:31:57 <[exa]> tomsmeding: btw any hot protip on how to do a bucketing aggregation in any of the array packages, preferably without going to mutable arrays? (I've got one array with N items, one array with N indexes 0..K-1 (which places the item into i-th bucket), and want to have an array with K sums of items that belong to i-th bucket)
08:32:05 <[exa]> tomsmeding: (basically k-means ^ )
08:32:35 <tomsmeding> I know off the top of my head how the primitive is called in Accelerate and Futhark. :p
08:32:40 tomsmeding opens repa docs
08:33:39 tomsmeding is confused
08:34:53 <tomsmeding> oh repa doesn't have push arrays?
08:35:38 <[exa]> so in accelerate and futhark this is "push arrays", right?
08:35:50 <tomsmeding> in accelerate it's 'permute', in futhark it's 'reduce_by_index'
08:36:59 <tomsmeding> in the general lingo of array languages, there's "pull arrays" (arrays defined by a function from index to value) and "push arrays" (arrays defined by a function I -> I' and an array on index space I; the function denotes where the element should go)
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08:38:00 <tomsmeding> [exa]: in massiv, I guess makeLoadArray(S)?
08:38:11 <tomsmeding> why is this so non-obvious
08:38:15 <[exa]> lemme check, I'm at backpermute now :D
08:38:21 <tomsmeding> backpermute is the other way round
08:38:39 <tomsmeding> backpermute is the pull array version
08:39:06 <[exa]> yap, was looking for any permute
08:39:27 tomsmeding searches for "repa push array" on duck
08:39:32 <tomsmeding> "Including results for javascript array push method"
08:39:36 <tomsmeding> no wtf
08:40:59 <[exa]> like, I can see why people dodge this given the insane ambiguity in optimization of the usual push arrays
08:41:15 <tomsmeding> it's one of the fundamental things you need to do histogram-like things
08:41:26 <[exa]> yeah
08:41:26 <tomsmeding> also it's one of the standard building blocks for the implementation of a parallel 'filter'
08:41:51 <tomsmeding> (map the predicate over the input array, scan (+) over that to determine destination indices, then forward permutation)
08:42:00 <Athas> Aren't push/pull arrays representations? Does Accelerate's permute actually construct a push array?
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08:42:42 <[exa]> as in, histograms ain't that big of an issue because the histogram array is relatively tiny, you can fold your way around that and it's gonna be fast. But I've got like 1MB target array, this won't fold.
08:42:43 <tomsmeding> Athas: None of Accelerate's source-level primitives construct a delayed array, it's all manifest, so indeed, technically there are neither push arrays _nor_ pull arrays
08:43:01 <Athas> Yeah, that's what I thought.
08:43:04 <tomsmeding> but it's still useful to think of the two directions when evaluating primitives / their performance
08:43:22 <[exa]> ah, here we go: DL: Delayed load representation. Also known as Push array.
08:43:33 <tomsmeding> [exa]: yes, that's how I ended up with makeLoadArray*
08:43:33 <[exa]> tomsmeding: thanks a lot
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08:44:22 <tomsmeding> you know what? Neither repa nor massiv have a parallel filtering function
08:44:53 <[exa]> filtering as in "shrink vector" or "mask operations" ?
08:44:55 <tomsmeding> Or at least it doesn't have "filter" in the name
08:44:57 <tomsmeding> :t filter
08:44:58 <lambdabot> (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
08:45:00 <tomsmeding> as in that one
08:45:06 <[exa]> so a shrinky one
08:45:08 <tomsmeding> yes
08:45:35 <[exa]> yeah well you know how lovely the parallelization of that is
08:45:49 <tomsmeding> as I said, you can parallelise that with map + scan + permute
08:45:56 <tomsmeding> but it's not very fast, indeed
08:46:21 <tomsmeding> scan and permute happen to roughly be the array combinators with the worst constant factors
08:46:22 <[exa]> like,
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08:46:38 <[exa]> this sounds like you'd get an array of data-determined size
08:46:42 <tomsmeding> yes
08:46:43 <[exa]> sounds like nope.
08:46:47 <tomsmeding> it's fine
08:47:02 [exa] has his opinion on data-determined sizes
08:47:05 <tomsmeding> it means not all shapes are known statically, but that's already the case if you can create arrays with runtime shapes
08:47:33 <tomsmeding> let n = sum _ in generate [n] (\i -> _)
08:47:44 <tomsmeding> voilà, a data-determined array size
08:48:08 <tomsmeding> this is supported first-class in the vast majority of array languages
08:48:47 <tomsmeding> (I know of one where it isn't, which I recently learned of -- Dr.Jit -- and that's a rather strange one, as array languages go)
08:49:28 <[exa]> like, it's okay but if your arrays are a few tens of gigabytes you can't just allow the program to yolo allocate a new one
08:49:37 <[exa]> (usually it can't)
08:50:21 <tomsmeding> [exa]: that sounds like it's more about allocation than about dynamic sizing?
08:50:58 <[exa]> yeah, mostly. but you always need to allocate somehow, right?
08:51:28 <tomsmeding> functional array languages are not very good at controlling allocation, yes
08:51:33 <tomsmeding> the explicit representation markers in repa and massiv help a bit
08:51:41 <tomsmeding> I still don't see what the connection with dynamic sizing is :p
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08:54:46 <[exa]> in most cases that I've seen in practice there's usually a switch that triggers if the array reduced too much or too little (usually corner cases), which is preferably triggered before the costly aggregation takes place
08:55:02 <[exa]> which implies you need some custom code between the scan and permute
08:55:15 <[exa]> so I'm not a big fan of having these glued into single functions
08:55:28 <tomsmeding> [exa]: what do you mean with "reduced too much / too little"?
08:56:19 <[exa]> say you're clustering stuff and you get a pathological case where everything gets into a single cluster (most algorithms have to interrupt and do stuff differently)
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08:57:32 <tomsmeding> I see
08:57:38 <[exa]> btw the makeLoadArray is probably not it (or I don't see how to use it to tell it the index)
08:58:31 <tomsmeding> [exa]: makeLoadArray is the monadic thing, essentially
08:58:47 <tomsmeding> the function you pass should use the element writing function _it_ gets passed to fill the destination array
08:59:00 <tomsmeding> I have no clue what that Bool is
08:59:21 <tomsmeding> ah you get False if it was out of range?
08:59:23 <tomsmeding> odd
08:59:32 <[exa]> yes the bool confuses me
08:59:44 <[exa]> ah wait there's one extra parentheses there
08:59:49 <[exa]> gooooood okay, saved
08:59:52 <tomsmeding> ah :)
09:00:50 <[exa]> now the other question is how to actually do the aggregation/sum there, for the histogram
09:00:59 <tomsmeding> oh wait
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09:01:05 <tomsmeding> lol oops
09:01:13 tomsmeding was just blindly looking for push arrays
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09:03:14 <tomsmeding> I have no clue
09:03:29 <tomsmeding> I'm very confused why neither repa nor massiv seem to have a histogram operation of any kind
09:03:41 <tomsmeding> Athas: you don't happen to know this, do you?
09:04:04 <Athas> It's not so easy to do efficiently, but it's not so hard to do OK.
09:04:13 <Athas> But my experience is that they don't crop up so often.
09:04:22 <tomsmeding> it's extremely hard to do so OK if you get zero primitives for them. :P
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09:04:30 <[exa]> :D
09:04:53 <Athas> If you have few bins, just do an outer loop over all bins.
09:05:04 <tomsmeding> with a fold per bin, right
09:05:16 <[exa]> Athas: I've got a bit too many bins which are huge
09:05:26 <[exa]> need the sparsity here, unfortunately
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09:09:05 <Athas> Here's a solution you won't like: sorting followed by a segmented reduction is asymptotically optimal.
09:09:28 <tomsmeding> and then write your own segmented reduction because none are provided
09:09:37 <tomsmeding> but at least you can do so!
09:09:59 <[exa]> Athas: my data is too fat to get sorted efficiently (you'd die on memory throughput of the sort)
09:09:59 <Athas> Yeah, but it's slow as hell unless you have a really snappy sort.
09:10:17 <tomsmeding> also, repa has no sort, only massiv seems to, and that sequential
09:10:49 <tomsmeding> correction, it's parallel
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09:11:11 <tomsmeding> [exa]: does massiv's `tally` do what you want?
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09:11:44 <[exa]> tomsmeding: it's very similar, and I actually need counting
09:11:57 <[exa]> yeah good catch, let's take that apart
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09:18:09 <Athas> [exa]: 'tally' sorts the array.
09:18:18 <Athas> And looks completely sequential.
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09:18:49 <tomsmeding> sigh
09:20:02 <Athas> Clearly the best solution must be https://hackage.haskell.org/package/futhark-server
09:20:19 <tomsmeding> hah
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09:39:49 <[exa]> well sounds to me like I'm FFIing to C :D
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12:10:14 <ski> @let tabulate :: Ix i => (i,i) -> (i -> e) -> Array i e; tabulate ix f = listArray ix [f i | i <- range ix]
12:10:15 <lambdabot> Defined.
12:10:21 <ski> @let ximap :: (Ix i,Ix j,Monoid e) => (j,j) -> (i -> j) -> (Array i e -> Array j e); ximap ix f ar = accumArray mappend mempty ix [(f i,ar ! i) | i <- indices ar]
12:10:22 <lambdabot> Defined.
12:10:29 <ski> > (fmap getSum . ximap (0,9) (^ 2) . L.tabulate (-3,3)) (\i -> Sum (abs (i^3)))
12:10:31 <lambdabot> array (0,9) [(0,0),(1,2),(2,0),(3,0),(4,16),(5,0),(6,0),(7,0),(8,0),(9,54)]
12:10:37 <ski> > (ximap (0,9) (^ 2) . L.tabulate (-3,3)) (\i -> [abs (i^3)])
12:10:38 <lambdabot> array (0,9) [(0,[0]),(1,[1,1]),(2,[]),(3,[]),(4,[8,8]),(5,[]),(6,[]),(7,[]),...
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18:03:26 <Athas> Today I am using OverloadedRecordDot for the first time.
18:03:32 <Athas> Let's see how well it works.
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18:37:04 <Athas> tomsmeding: got any insights regarding higher-order AD with 'ad'?
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22:39:02 <[exa]> I finally pushed myself to make an ultrasimple educatory version of the hindley-milner inference, so that I can use it to show stuff to people without drowning in papers full of tyvars. If that's useful to anyone else, please enjoy here: https://github.com/exaexa/minihm
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22:42:46 <monochrom> onoes now I must not let my students find it.
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22:45:58 <[exa]> monochrom: take it constructively, you can give harder assignments now
22:46:03 [exa] hides
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23:03:29 <monochrom> hehe
23:03:56 <monochrom> "infer the type of id id id id id id id id id id id id"
23:04:02 <monochrom> @quote monochrom 17-ary
23:04:02 <lambdabot> monochrom says: I am 17-ary, going on 18-ary, I can take curry of you
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23:52:53 × machinedgod quits (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
23:56:56 × kh0d quits (~kh0d@212.200.247.167) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:56:59 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
23:57:51 kh0d joins (~kh0d@212.200.247.167)
23:59:35 xff0x joins (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:d229:f63b:2d49:ccd3)

All times are in UTC on 2025-03-20.