Logs on 2025-03-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:47:48 | <EvanR> | Two men are at the North Pole. One of them goes south; the other goes in the opposite direction. In what direction does the latter go? |
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| 00:50:12 | <geekosaur> | south, of course |
| 00:50:30 | <EvanR> | the question right before that was "Is south the opposite of north?" |
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| 00:51:07 | <geekosaur> | context matters |
| 00:51:24 | <EvanR> | at the north pole, south is the opposite of south? xD |
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| 00:52:34 | <geekosaur> | without additional context, south is generally the opposite of north. with context "at the north pole", all directions are south |
| 00:52:51 | <geekosaur> | (ignoring little things like "but not true as soon as you move off the pole") |
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| 00:55:12 | <Axman6> | EvanR: Damn those hairy balls |
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| 00:55:55 | <EvanR> | spheres are weird |
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| 01:32:55 | <monochrom> | But what was the series 1 + 1/2 - 1/12 - 1/408 - 1/470832 - 1/627013566048 - ... ? |
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| 01:34:00 | ChanServ | sets mode +v lambdabot |
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| 01:52:33 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> https://oeis.org/search?q=1%2C+2%2C+12%2C+408%2C+470832%2C+627013566048&language=english&go=Search |
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| 01:52:45 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> An approximation of sqrt(2) apparently |
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| 03:21:21 | <Axman6> | let pell = 01:zipWith (+) (map (*2) $ drop 1 pell) |
| 03:21:36 | <Axman6> | > let pell = 0:1:zipWith (+) (map (*2) $ drop 1 pell) in take 10 pell |
| 03:21:37 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 03:21:38 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘[c]’ with actual type ‘[c] -> [c]’ |
| 03:21:38 | <lambdabot> | • Probable cause: ‘zipWith’ is applied to too few arguments |
| 03:22:01 | <Axman6> | > let pell = 0:1:zipWith (+) (map (*2) pell) (drop 1 pell) ( in take 10 pell |
| 03:22:03 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:60: error: parse error on input ‘in’ |
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| 04:03:08 | <monochrom> | > let pell = 0:1:zipWith (+) (map (*2) pell) (drop 1 pell) in take 10 pell |
| 04:03:10 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,1,3,5,11,21,43,85,171] |
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| 04:05:57 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> I ran my test with the "-threaded" RTS, and "yield" works there, but it _does not_ work in GHCi (which is single core) |
| 04:06:26 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> so I think there's an issue with "yield" in single core mode (non "-threaded") where "yield" is not creating a new thread schedule |
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| 04:13:00 | <EvanR> | oh nice my terms are already a known sequence |
| 04:13:15 | <EvanR> | egyptian sqrt 2 |
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| 04:16:05 | <EvanR> | lol and the comments even mention it |
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| 05:00:45 | <talismanick> | I was looking through Bluefin examples, but didn't see the UndecidableInstances pragma I remembered it requiring |
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| 05:01:04 | <talismanick> | was that only a feature of the alpha release posted on Discourse? |
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| 05:02:06 | <talismanick> | (I somehow failed to find detailed patch notes anywhere - just read git commit messages?) |
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| 05:09:27 | <Leary> | talismanick: Basic bluefin code won't require any instance declarations in the first place. |
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| 19:25:00 | <Sayman> | Hello there, |
| 19:25:49 | <Sayman> | Sayman this side from India, a passionate open source developer researching on haskell's programming language concepts. |
| 19:26:13 | <davean> | Welcome |
| 19:27:00 | <Sayman> | I am preparing to enhance yesod framework of haskell through my add ons, willn't it gonna improve the web architecture of this language? |
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| 19:27:44 | <Sayman> | Yeah, thanks for welcoming me |
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| 19:28:03 | <Sayman> | Why are so many people lefting -_- |
| 19:28:21 | <geekosaur> | sorry, this channel is pretty quiet at various times of day, plus many people have abandoned IRC |
| 19:28:27 | <geekosaur> | (I was in the restroom) |
| 19:29:05 | <geekosaur> | there's some activity on Matrix. oddly, not much on the FP Discord today |
| 19:29:20 | <Sayman> | Ohhh ok |
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| 19:30:04 | <Sayman> | Is my idea suitable for applying, so I submit my proposal |
| 19:30:25 | <Sayman> | I already prepared one for it :-) |
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| 19:31:05 | <geekosaur> | these days yesod doesn't seem to see a lot of use, most people use scotty or servant |
| 19:31:25 | <geekosaur> | but I'm not really the right person to talk to about web stuff |
| 19:32:39 | <Sayman> | are you the admin? |
| 19:32:44 | <Sayman> | or a mentor |
| 19:32:55 | <Athas> | tomsmeding: did you know of some Haskell AD library that is faster than 'ad'? |
| 19:33:00 | <Athas> | Something that abused Template Haskell? |
| 19:33:36 | <geekosaur> | not sure what you mean by "admin", I'm a moderator here and on Matrix. I do help out with beginners also |
| 19:33:55 | <Sayman> | should I continue with my proposal |
| 19:33:55 | <geekosaur> | I also am one of the core maintainers of xmonad, and when I can I contribute to ghc and cabal development |
| 19:33:59 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: I wrote my own thing that wasn't even meant to be faster than 'ad', but it is by a factor of 2 sometimes -- but it _really_ is not fleshed out at all, so you won't have much luck with it |
| 19:34:12 | <Sayman> | will it gonna be better to continue or to change my idea? |
| 19:34:43 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: that array-aware thing that I was hacking on (and that you said I should continue hacking on) I didn't continue working on yet, so that's in usable state if the existing array API happens to be enough for your algorithm, and otherwise not :p |
| 19:34:45 | <geekosaur> | again, I'm not really involved with web stuff. you might post to /r/haskell or discourse.haskell.org |
| 19:34:48 | <Sayman> | geekosaur okay |
| 19:35:09 | <Athas> | Ah well. |
| 19:35:13 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: in general, how happy are gradbench with random experimental libraries? |
| 19:35:24 | <Athas> | tomsmeding: that remains to be seen! |
| 19:35:34 | <tomsmeding> | as in, is it "benchmark all the implementations" or "let's collect the major ones and get a useful comparison" |
| 19:35:38 | <Athas> | But Sam has turned into a maximalist. |
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| 19:35:43 | <tomsmeding> | I see |
| 19:36:04 | <Athas> | I think the architecture is robust enough to handle arbitrary amounts of weird tools. The main bottleneck is that the table will look weird, but that is a fixable UI issue. |
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| 19:36:22 | <Athas> | As long as it fits in a Docker container, I would say it should go in. |
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| 19:36:36 | <tomsmeding> | you could even mark certain tools as "experimental", and not show them by default (or make it easy to filter them out or something) |
| 19:37:41 | <Athas> | Yes, that is much better than rejecting esoterica. |
| 19:38:21 | <Athas> | Btw, I found that Haskell did pretty well for implementing a differentiable Runge-Kutta ODE solver, but now I'm trying to work out how to implement computation of a matrix determinant by minors. |
| 19:39:15 | <Athas> | This is not a good algorithm (the complexity is something like O(n!)), but what's worse is that it depends on recursively removing rows and columns from a matrix. This can be done in efficient ways with mutable arrays, but I haven't cracked a nice way to do it in Haskell. |
| 19:39:38 | <Athas> | Of course, the lovely part of an O(n!) algorithm is that the dataset will necessarily be so small that perhaps an inefficient matrix representation is unimportant. |
| 19:39:51 | <tomsmeding> | hah, O(n!) is brutal |
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| 19:40:46 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: perhaps the dataset will be small, but even then, what really matters here is the _proportion_ of time that you spend in matrix manipulations |
| 19:40:59 | <tomsmeding> | because you'll probably also be doing O(n!) of those matrix manipulations |
| 19:41:11 | <tomsmeding> | so it may well be that they need to be fast after all, even if the data is small |
| 19:42:14 | <Athas> | Yes. But the imperative solution is to essentially encode the matrix as a linked list of row indexes and column indexes, such that e.g. R[i] is the physical index of the successor to row 'i'. |
| 19:42:29 | <Athas> | So maybe it is good enough to maintain a mutable array and then just a bunch of linked lists. |
| 19:42:52 | <Athas> | The algorithm is really quite trivial: https://mathworld.wolfram.com/DeterminantExpansionbyMinors.html |
| 19:42:55 | <Athas> | Maybe I'm overthinking it. |
| 19:43:02 | <tomsmeding> | just implement it! |
| 19:44:07 | <Athas> | Er, maintain an immutable array. |
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| 21:04:06 | <EvanR> | say an interface to a stack container has two operations push :: a -> Stack a -> Stack a, and pop :: Stack a -> (a, Stack a). And there's a law, pop (push x xs) = (x, xs) |
| 21:04:23 | <EvanR> | is that enough to constraint the behavior of the data type to what we normally think of as stack-like |
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| 21:06:12 | <Athas> | tomsmeding: this might make me unpopular with the Haskell community: https://github.com/gradbench/gradbench/blob/cmpad/tools/haskell/src/GradBench/DetByMinor.hs |
| 21:06:14 | <EvanR> | I guess you need something to start with, dirac :: a -> Stack a, an infinite stack of a which never runs out, where a could be used as a sentinel that you reached the bottom |
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| 21:07:26 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: I think if you have a certain starting stack and particular sequence of pushes and pops, then you can successively cancel each pop against a push until either you're popping more than you pushed (and the spec doesn't let us conclude what happens if you pop from the starting stack), or you have some pushes left which don't generate observable info |
| 21:07:53 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: so yes, this should pin it down apart from pop-on-empty-stack and stack initialisation |
| 21:08:50 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: why? Because it's slow and makes haskell look bad? |
| 21:09:16 | <mauke> | can't be worse than whitespace |
| 21:09:45 | <Athas> | tomsmeding: yes, people get mad when you make a language look bad. |
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| 21:10:05 | <EvanR> | unless it's haskell |
| 21:10:09 | <Athas> | Although on the largest workloads it's only about 5x slower than C++. |
| 21:10:35 | <EvanR> | because looking bad might indicate something is actually bad and needs improvement |
| 21:11:19 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: only 5x? And that's with 'ad'? |
| 21:11:24 | <Rembane> | 5x slower than C++ is very fast imho |
| 21:11:24 | <sprout> | EvanR: I don't think you need the infinite stack |
| 21:11:33 | <Athas> | tomsmeding: yes, 'ad'. And maybe more like 7x. |
| 21:11:39 | <EvanR> | I'll ignore the empty stack for now |
| 21:11:46 | <sprout> | EvanR: assuming that you're only interested in popping what you once pushed |
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| 21:12:00 | <sprout> | EvanR: but how would you keep track? |
| 21:12:00 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: 7x slower than baseline is indeed slow, but if it's 'ad' that achieves that, I'd call that a win |
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| 21:12:57 | <sprout> | EvanR: if you don't have a 'stack_empty?' predicate you'll probably need to keep track of it yourself somehow |
| 21:13:08 | <EvanR> | I'll ignore the empty stack for now xD |
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| 21:15:18 | <EvanR> | push x xs = x : x : xs, ok, this fails the law |
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| 21:17:03 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: important observation, which was implicit in my first reply, is that push and pop each take and return exactly one stack, so any "history" of a stack is a linear sequence of pushes and pops |
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| 21:17:20 | <tomsmeding> | so for semantics, you only need to look at all such sequences |
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| 21:18:29 | <EvanR> | inventing notation to make that sequence of calls easy to see |
| 21:18:36 | <EvanR> | a push next to a pop cancels |
| 21:18:41 | <EvanR> | somehow |
| 21:18:51 | <EvanR> | and you're left with the final state of the stack |
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| 21:21:30 | <EvanR> | let (x, xs) = pop (push 7 (push 8 (...)) in push 9 xs |
| 21:21:45 | <EvanR> | push 9 (push 8 (...)) |
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| 21:24:57 | <EvanR> | define pop! = snd . pop |
| 21:25:21 | <EvanR> | push 9 (pop! (push 7 (push 8 (...)))) |
| 21:25:22 | <EvanR> | becomes |
| 21:25:31 | <EvanR> | push 9 (push 8 (...)) |
| 21:25:42 | <EvanR> | semantically |
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| 21:31:26 | <tomsmeding> | claim: the behaviour of 'check' pins down the entire semantics of Stack: check :: Stack a -> [Maybe a] -> [a]; checks s = snd . foldl' (\(s', out) -> maybe (let (y,s'') = pop s' in (s'',y:out)) (flip push s')) (s, []) |
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| 21:32:01 | <tomsmeding> | yes, the output is reversed, and no I don't care |
| 21:32:46 | <EvanR> | what is this [Maybe a] |
| 21:32:52 | <tomsmeding> | Just is a push, Nothing is a pop |
| 21:33:00 | <tomsmeding> | list of instructions, essentially |
| 21:33:26 | <tomsmeding> | point being that as long as there are enough Justs before Nothings to make sure you never "pop into" the initial stack s, you can determine the output of 'check' purely from your law |
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| 21:34:40 | <EvanR> | the initial stack is where you can do root exploits |
| 21:34:45 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 21:35:29 | <EvanR> | I was going to write a similar piece of code to convert a stack into a list but forwards |
| 21:35:53 | <EvanR> | is just using foldr instead of foldl' enough |
| 21:36:08 | <tomsmeding> | then you process the list of instructions in reverse |
| 21:36:19 | <tomsmeding> | which, like, doesn't matter for my claim |
| 21:36:37 | <tomsmeding> | but neither does the output order :p |
| 21:36:57 | <EvanR> | as long as the [Maybe a] isn't infinite |
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| 21:37:44 | <tomsmeding> | I'm saying that the behaviour of 'check' pins down the semantics of 'Stack' (modulo initial/empty stack), not that every invocation of 'check' says something meaningful |
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| 21:43:10 | <EvanR> | can you somehow prove the opposite law |
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| 21:52:47 | <EvanR> | answer: no |
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| 22:28:40 | <EvanR> | according to a 2006 mailing list post I found announcing a new version of lambdabot, it has "an unlambda interpreter" |
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| 22:36:04 | <geekosaur> | I think it stopped building at some point |
| 22:37:06 | <geekosaur> | I vaguely recall it being one of the plugins I disabled for my heavily customized lambdabot instance back then |
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| 22:38:10 | <EvanR> | figures xD |
| 22:39:21 | <geekosaur> | don't see a commit in the git log removing it but it's last mentioned in 2011 |
| 22:40:02 | <EvanR> | wiki claims it still exists |
| 22:40:14 | <EvanR> | I've never see it mentioned in "this channel" |
| 22:40:41 | <geekosaur> | @listmodules |
| 22:40:41 | <lambdabot> | activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search |
| 22:40:41 | <lambdabot> | seen slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where |
| 22:40:47 | <geekosaur> | oh, huh |
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| 22:40:52 | <geekosaur> | @list unlambda |
| 22:40:52 | <lambdabot> | unlambda provides: unlambda |
| 22:41:36 | <EvanR> | :unlambda ,,,,.,,,,.... |
| 22:41:43 | <EvanR> | @unlambda ,,,.,,,.. |
| 22:41:43 | <lambdabot> | unlambda: Unknown operator ',' |
| 22:41:43 | <lambdabot> | CallStack (from HasCallStack): |
| 22:41:43 | <lambdabot> | error, called at Main.hs:45:38 in main:Main |
| 22:41:53 | <EvanR> | I don't actually know unlambda |
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| 22:42:36 | <EvanR> | @unlambda `r```````````.H.e.l.l.o. .w.o.r.l.di |
| 22:42:36 | <lambdabot> | Hello world |
| 22:45:29 | <JuanDaugherty> | it's apparently just somebody's dumb lanbda of like a hunderd lines |
| 22:47:24 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 22:52:21 | <EvanR> | there's a lot of history in lambdabot on the subject of making it not ridiculously unsafe |
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| 22:53:01 | <EvanR> | and in the end it still doesn't do IO |
| 22:53:14 | <EvanR> | I'm wondering if it could somehow be rigged to output diagrams |
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| 23:08:44 | <EvanR> | looks like building mueval is going to be fun |
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| 23:12:47 | <EvanR> | it builds fine in isolation |
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| 23:18:31 | <int-e> | EvanR: https://github.com/TerenceNg03/mueval/issues/27 may be relevant |
| 23:19:09 | <int-e> | I've *always* patched mueval for lambdabot because it hard-codes a -static link flag and that causes it to be way slower than the dynamic way |
| 23:19:34 | <EvanR> | thx |
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| 23:20:53 | <int-e> | apart from that lambdabot should be fine with ghc-9.10 as released; ghc-9.12 looked out of reach two months ago (too many dependencies broke for me to try to get it to work) |
| 23:25:45 | <EvanR> | and it needs an environment file |
| 23:26:18 | <EvanR> | I'm on GHC 9.6 |
| 23:28:09 | <mauke> | monochrom++ # continuations and stuff |
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| 23:31:36 | <Axman6> | monochrom (\r -> r+1) |
| 23:32:05 | <mauke> | .oO( monochrom succ ) |
| 23:33:13 | <Axman6> | so rude |
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| 23:37:59 | <Axman6> | monochrom (negate . pred . negate) |
| 23:38:27 | <EvanR> | the issues tracker mentions creating a GHC environment file by making a dummy cabal project, listing the needed packages in the build-depends, then running cabal new-build "will create the GHC env file" |
| 23:38:32 | <EvanR> | but I see no such file anywhere |
| 23:40:04 | <EvanR> | or is none of this necessary if you fix the -static thing |
| 23:40:43 | <geekosaur> | cabal (new-)build hasn't done that for a long time, I think; you need to use --package-env=… |
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| 23:49:15 | <EvanR> | cabal build --write-ghc-environment-files=always |
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| 23:52:45 | <EvanR> | noice... an at least half functional mueval binary |
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| 23:57:45 | <EvanR> | That explains how lambdabot can evaluate expressions, but how does it infer the types |
| 23:57:57 | <EvanR> | with the :t command |
| 23:58:06 | <int-e> | it uses ghci for that |
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