Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2025-03-25 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:14:02 <EvanR> it seems --load-file and GHC_ENVIRONMENT= don't work together, throwing a GhcException "Package environment \".ghc.environment.x86_64-linux-9.6.3\" (specified in GHC_ENVIRONMENT) not found"
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00:16:27 <EvanR> and apparently isnt required anymore anyway...
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02:58:13 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> have we gone over this yet?
02:58:14 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/result?asc=0&f=axum,actix,servant&l=haskell&metric=totalRequestsPerS&order_by=level64
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03:02:42 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> the surprising part is that scotty is beating axum and actix at low scales, when scotty isn't known for its performance
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03:09:37 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> I’d expect servant and Scotty to be the same since they’re both basically warp. A 5x diff is sus
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03:28:50 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> yeah. tbh, full disclosure, both get beaten by ookami and microhttp
03:29:12 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> but generally a high performance haskell library should be able to reach 50% of rust, which is just saying web frameworks need love
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03:40:21 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> We can just FFI into the fastest C web server
03:41:48 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> And use bytestring builder, with some light staging
03:42:06 <monochrom> It would also be most buggy.
03:43:29 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> I don’t buy that. C still runs the world
03:44:22 <monochrom> But do you buy: The glue code you write for FFI adds one more opportunity for bugs?
03:44:50 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Where are all the rust network stacks. TCP/IP is the global highway of information and it’s predominantly in C
03:44:50 <monochrom> IMO that's even more buggy than plain C.
03:45:17 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Rust is trying to make its way into the kernel with great difficulty
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03:48:36 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> It’s too pervasive. Like cobol it’s never going away
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03:54:19 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> monochrom do you buy there is an inverse correlation between the most used software and the most correct software
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03:55:55 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> why does it have to be linear
03:55:59 <monochrom> Sure.
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04:06:20 <Axman6> Well, when first looking at that benchmark, the Servant implementation uses String everywhere...
04:07:20 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Until you can make writing Lean as easy and as familiar as JavaScript, I don’t see the situation changing any time soon.
04:07:22 <haskellbridge> I am optimistic about Zig though. You have to keep the foot gun accesible.
04:07:33 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Axman6: Someone is sand baggin’ us
04:08:19 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Zig embodies the Berkeley school philosophy which is why it will continue to succeed.
04:09:46 <Axman6> Looking at what the servers actually do, I would be surprised if there's heaps of overhead from using String, but there could be some. Changing it to Text should reduce conversions though
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04:11:54 <monochrom> Oh Lean will never be as easy as C. Even Haskell will never be.
04:12:25 <monochrom> Haskell or similar languages can be a sweet spot of not too many bugs and not too slow.
04:14:07 <monochrom> But we don't even need that for the inverse correlation between most used and most correct, no? Social media has also shown us the inverse correlation between most believed and most correct. Like we need to rationalize that.
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04:25:18 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> also re dmjio: it's possible servant breaks the specialization in warp, but i'm not really familiar with warp in terms of its type architecture
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04:36:01 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Liamzee: It wouldn’t surprise me at all if HasServer dictionaries weren’t getting specialized given the incremental compilation nature of GHC and cross module inlining limitations. But 5x still sounds heavy.
04:36:29 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> monochrom: That’s fair.
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04:51:02 <davean> dmjio that is also a lot of parsing via a lot of type level implied machinery
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04:53:08 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> The biggest upfront cost is the first request. The graph reduces and subsequent requests do less work
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04:57:46 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Parsing shouldn’t be any different. Servant handlers operate on an already parsed request, much like Scotty
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11:57:02 <[exa]> gah, is there some easily rememberable rule of thumb for monad transformer order? I.e., how to instinctively know whether one wants `StateT s Parser` or `ParserT (State s)`
11:57:16 <[exa]> I always have to look at the implementation to just be sure
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12:04:24 <tomsmeding> @unmtl
12:04:24 <lambdabot> err: Parse error: ;
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12:06:29 <[exa]> tomsmeding: yeah that's what I kinda do in head and want to have a shortcut around it
12:07:16 <tomsmeding> it's still doing the same thing in the end, but you can think about the eliminator functions: if you have a StateT s Parser, then you'll runStateT and get something in the Parser monad
12:07:27 <tomsmeding> whereas if you have a ParserT (State s), you'll run the parser and get something in the state monad back
12:07:46 <tomsmeding> this indirectly tells you what the actual semantics of your stack is
12:08:01 <tomsmeding> without having to look at the precise implementation of the monad data types
12:09:04 <tomsmeding> this is most clear with State and Except -- with StateT s (Except e), you run the state monad and then get an Except out, i.e. you get a state irrespective of whether there was an exception
12:09:28 <tomsmeding> with ExceptT e (State s), you run the ExceptT to _maybe_ get a State out
12:09:40 <tomsmeding> @unmtl ExceptT e (State s)
12:09:40 <lambdabot> err: `ExceptT e (State s)' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A. s -> (Either e A, s)'
12:09:42 <tomsmeding> @unmtl ExceptT e (State s) a
12:09:42 <lambdabot> s -> (Either e a, s)
12:09:48 <tomsmeding> I'm wrong
12:09:53 <tomsmeding> disregard all that I say
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12:09:57 <[exa]> you see, it's friggin confusing
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12:10:03 tomsmeding hides in a corner
12:10:28 <[exa]> technically you were right but it just does the other thing
12:10:32 <[exa]> I think
12:10:43 <tomsmeding> there's a trick I found out a while ago: if you're okay with accessing your monad through mtl classes, then you can use DerivingVia to document what you're doing
12:11:13 <tomsmeding> newtype M a = M (s -> (Either e a, s)) deriving (Functor, Applicative, Monad, MonadState s, MonadExcept e) via (ExceptT e (State s) a)
12:11:55 <tomsmeding> you don't have to write the methods, but you also get compiler-checked documentation of wtf your monad is actually doing (namely, that type inside the M)
12:12:38 <tomsmeding> if you don't need the mtl methods, then honestly just write out the monad manually, using transformers just makes the thing more opaque
12:13:02 <[exa]> yeah I see
12:13:39 <tomsmeding> [exa]: right, the correct version was: if you have a `MT N a`, then the first eliminator goes `MT N a -> N (M a)`
12:14:02 <[exa]> that's ok
12:15:53 <[exa]> kinda trying to find the trick that tells the students if the State will get reset by Parser or not. in this case I guess N(M a) says kinda "N dominates M" so the M will get reset if e.g. N backtracks... and now I hope that's right.
12:16:31 <tomsmeding> it's rather important whether it's `N (M a)` or `NT M a`
12:16:38 <tomsmeding> they behave differently
12:16:55 <tomsmeding> case in point:
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12:17:02 <tomsmeding> @unmtl ExceptT e (State s) a
12:17:02 <lambdabot> s -> (Either e a, s)
12:17:08 <tomsmeding> this looks a lot like State s (Either e a)
12:18:11 <tomsmeding> I can't help you, sorry
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12:22:04 <EvanR> I'm crippled because the first thing I read about monads was on wikipedia where it stated "writing monad definitions directly is difficult"
12:22:23 <EvanR> so now it's difficult forever and I have to rely on transformers xD
12:22:30 <tomsmeding> it's the only thing that's actually understandable
12:22:33 <int-e> @src forever
12:22:33 <lambdabot> forever a = let a' = a >> a' in a'
12:22:55 <tomsmeding> EvanR: reinvent all the monads, dig yourself deep into NIH and rewrite all the basic monads
12:22:59 <tomsmeding> then you'll understand monads
12:23:12 <EvanR> I can write the individual rogues gallery of monads
12:23:32 <int-e> EvanR: May I suggest a dose of "You Could Have Invented Monads (And Maybe You Already Have)"?
12:23:41 <EvanR> but combining them to get what a combination of transformers would produce
12:24:18 <tomsmeding> the trick is to understand why the individual monad implementations do what they do, e.g. why `s -> (a, s)` makes _sense_ as a state monad
12:24:25 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> monad stacks are OOP
12:24:26 <tomsmeding> then if you want a combination, write the underlying function that does that
12:24:42 <tomsmeding> then write the Functor, Applicative, Monad instances for that
12:24:42 <[exa]> tomsmeding: yeah maybe I should just draw a very clean picture that the types get flipped when they have the T in them
12:24:56 <[exa]> maerwald: nooooooooooooooooooo
12:24:56 <int-e> The monad concept is *very* abstract. Work with the instances.
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12:25:43 <EvanR> it's ridiculous because, despite the claim on 2005 wikipedia, writing individual monad instances isn't very difficult at all. You almost can't mess up
12:25:56 <EvanR> because of the types
12:26:26 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Yes, OOP is characterized by clouded control flow and side effect stacked on top of each other. That's exactly what transformers do.
12:27:04 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> but we celebrate the "bind" interface and label the whole thing as pure
12:27:40 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> no one cares about ergonomics and if your average engineer can actually reason about what happens during execution (don't come with denotational semantics)
12:27:47 <EvanR> I wish OOP was as easy as transformers xD
12:27:47 <tomsmeding> maerwald: are you complaining about monad transformer stacks like `StateT s (Except e)`, or also about manually-written monads like `newtype M a = M (s -> (Either e a, s))`
12:27:58 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> all of it
12:28:01 <int-e> EvanR: Well that's assuming you understand types. Those are to-tally inscrutible too and make EVERYBODY™'s eyes bleed.
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12:32:58 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> maerwald: deep-stacked monad transformers have been known to be a code-smell since like 2011, 2015 at the latest
12:33:06 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> maerwald:
12:33:56 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> at least because of O(n) performance penalties in bind
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12:35:15 <EvanR> log n improvement in time to market though, similar to "just write a bunch of python code real fast and ship it"
12:35:26 <EvanR> don't worry about what happens down the road
12:35:50 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> afaik isn't that the point of the free monads crowd?
12:36:15 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i.e, shouldn't free monad interpreter beat mtl in terms of ergonomics?
12:37:19 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Free monads have bad performance
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12:37:51 <EvanR> there's freeer monad
12:37:56 <EvanR> which has some optimizations
12:38:04 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> eff was supposed to fix it, but Alexis probably will never finish it
12:38:55 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Delim conts have some fundamental issues when used within effect systems iirc
12:39:41 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> The current fastest way is either "Reader IO a" or "effectful" which is exactly a "Reader IO a". Risk is you might confuse GHC
12:40:31 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> did you guys take a look at nammayatri?
12:41:13 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> granin seems to have made himself the foremost proponent of free monad interpreters because of his aggressive sell and his work at juspay
12:41:37 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://github.com/nammayatri/nammayatri
12:41:48 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Free monads will be always slow afaiu so their a no go for me
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12:42:25 <int-e> EvanR: exercise: relate https://hackage.haskell.org/package/MonadPrompt-1.0.0.5/docs/Control-Monad-Prompt.html#t:Prompt and freeer monads
12:43:03 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i'm not sure if nammayatri used free monads, though
12:44:44 <EvanR> what is the airspeed velocity of a free monad
12:45:13 <EvanR> int-e, in the middle of writing a teletype like free monad now!
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12:49:52 <EvanR> I did it and the code looks nothing like free or freer
12:50:01 <int-e> TBH I'm just a tad sad that the idea of expressing an API as a GADT seems to be forgotten. (See the example on https://hackage.haskell.org/package/MonadPrompt-1.0.0.5/docs/Control-Monad-Prompt.html ). Free monads do get you the same functionality but you have to work a tad harder.
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12:51:00 <EvanR> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/pmd8nbPr
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12:52:59 <tomsmeding> int-e: it looks to me like that Prompt monad just factors out the commonalities between most (all?) free monads -- the Pure constructor and the continuations on all the effect constructors
12:53:02 <int-e> that would be data Tele a where { Put :: Char -> Tele (); Get :: Tele Char }
12:53:17 <tomsmeding> (and it's CPS-transformed to make it less readable)
12:53:27 <tomsmeding> (and presumably faster)
12:53:34 <int-e> tomsmeding: yeah. it *also* predates the popularization of free monads
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12:53:40 <tomsmeding> I see
12:54:28 <EvanR> and then what, use another data structure to represent the nesting structure
12:54:48 <EvanR> I thought it was an exercise in "writing the monad instance directly" xD
12:55:13 <tomsmeding> that exercise stands, and you're doing well with Tele :p
12:55:24 <EvanR> oh you're doing the GADT version
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12:57:06 <tomsmeding> EvanR: now do nondeterminism ([a]), state (s -> (a, s)), exceptions (Either e a), parsers (String -> Either e (String, a))
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12:57:13 <EvanR> the data type Tele a reminds me of the [Maybe a] from the Stack thing yesterday
12:57:27 <int-e> IIRC the relation is that a prompt descriptor (is that a good term?) `P a` translates to the functor `F b = forall a. (a, P a -> b)` for use in a free monad construction.
12:57:32 <EvanR> instead of the structure it's the commands
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13:00:07 <int-e> Pretty sure that was it. And you can specialize the freeer monad type for that shape of functor and optimize it a little and get the definition that MonadPrompt uses.
13:01:16 <int-e> err I'm stupid
13:01:28 <int-e> It's `F b = forall a. (P a, a -> b)`
13:01:45 <tomsmeding> that feels better, yeah
13:01:56 <tomsmeding> I was having doubts but I wasn't sure how to fix it
13:01:58 <int-e> The danger of trying to remember things :-)
13:02:25 <tomsmeding> the values in the P constructors are the outputs of the effect, the type index is the input for its continuation (the reply)
13:02:28 <[exa]> tomsmeding: ohhhhhhhhhhhh I found a rule of thumb!
13:02:44 <tomsmeding> s/outputs/inputs/
13:02:44 <[exa]> tomsmeding: "you can't reset IO", which is why IO is always the last thing in stack
13:02:46 <tomsmeding> lol
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13:03:21 <tomsmeding> [exa]: so inner things can run outer things strangely (reset, run multiple times, etc.) but outer things cannot influence inner things?
13:03:23 <Leary> int-e: AKA `Coyoneda P`.
13:04:05 <[exa]> tomsmeding: roughly.
13:04:15 <tomsmeding> [exa]: NT M a runs into M (N a), so AT (BT (CT M)) a in the end runs in M
13:04:23 <haskellbridge> <alexfmpe> int-e: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reflex-gadt-api
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13:05:18 <tomsmeding> [exa]: I like
13:05:20 <haskellbridge> <alexfmpe> (specialized for reflex-dom, just pointing out gadt api isn't quite forgotten)
13:06:01 <int-e> alexfmpe: Oh, nice :)
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13:10:07 <Leary> Some effect systems like 'effectful' are also effectively reviving these "GADT API"; e.g. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/effectful-core-2.5.1.0/docs/Effectful-Dispatch-Dynamic.html
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13:12:20 <EvanR> inner and outer "things"?
13:12:27 <EvanR> I have another rule of thumb
13:12:30 <EvanR> burritos
13:12:54 <tomsmeding> everyone who seriously suggests burritos are a good monad intuition are actually burritos themselves
13:13:32 <EvanR> and in light of yesterday's discussion of stacks
13:13:39 <EvanR> "last in the stack" could mean anything
13:14:08 <EvanR> due to your interpretation function producing the opposite order of instructions and LTR RTL language issues
13:14:17 <tomsmeding> the "inner" and "outer" here referred to monad transformer stacks like StateT s (ExceptT e IO) a
13:14:27 <EvanR> ok now that's a burrito
13:14:29 <tomsmeding> where StateT is the outer and IO is the inner
13:14:37 <tomsmeding> I think that's fairly unambiguous
13:14:46 <EvanR> yes but what is last
13:14:46 <int-e> Leary: hmm the example looks dubious (where does m come from?)
13:14:52 <EvanR> "innermost"
13:14:53 <tomsmeding> EvanR: no one said "last" here
13:14:55 <int-e> Leary: but I see what you mean
13:14:57 <EvanR> scroll up lol
13:15:10 <tomsmeding> oh I see
13:15:21 <tomsmeding> okay that last was "inner"
13:15:46 <EvanR> the innermost layer of burritos can't be reset
13:15:58 <int-e> oh nm
13:16:14 <int-e> each value can come with its own m
13:16:51 <Leary> Yes, it's just a little higher-order tweak on the same idea.
13:20:14 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> actually, StateT case is sort of confused, no?
13:20:55 <tomsmeding> EvanR: case in point why burritos are not appropriate here: if you have StateT s IO a, then even though IO is arguably the "inner" monad here, it's actually the IO burrito that contains the State burrito
13:20:59 <tomsmeding> @unmtl StateT s IO a
13:20:59 <lambdabot> s -> IO (a, s)
13:21:23 <tomsmeding> see, if you just write out `s -> IO (a, s)` all is clear
13:21:43 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> ummmm
13:22:04 <EvanR> IO is the crunchy outer layer of the purely functional program burrito, so it's just that the "stack" is upside down
13:22:22 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> IO (s -> (a, s)), s -> (IO a, s)
13:22:45 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> in the case provided by lambdabot, is IO beneath state or is state beneath IO?
13:22:59 <tomsmeding> that's up to the blog post writer
13:23:24 <EvanR> is the real version of StateT s IO a more like lambdabot or more like Liamzee
13:23:29 <tomsmeding> to wit, neither of the options that Liamzee just gave are particularly useful in practice
13:23:32 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> it's lambdabot
13:23:40 <EvanR> oh it's two versions from Liamzee
13:23:48 <tomsmeding> lambdabot just expands the newtypes
13:23:54 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i just came up with some nonsense versions to try to illustrate
13:24:10 <EvanR> I guess we need to complete all the possibilities
13:24:12 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> how ridiculous the notion of outside and inside can be with some of these monad transformers
13:24:14 <EvanR> s -> (a, IO s)
13:24:17 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> you have a data dependency on state
13:24:22 <tomsmeding> > newtype StateT s m a = StateT { runStateT :: s -> m (a,s) }
13:24:33 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> then IO wraps the output (a, s) pair
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13:24:52 <tomsmeding> Liamzee: I agree re ridiculousness of inside/outside, but the original question was about intuition about monad transformer stacks _without_ expanding their definitions
13:25:03 <EvanR> "IO wraps the pair" ok now I'm losing it with the burrito analogy, I feel like that might be off the farm
13:25:06 <tomsmeding> and as long as you keep the newtypes unexpanded, there's a clear outer/inner in your source text
13:25:17 <tomsmeding> even if, operationally, things go weirdly inside out
13:25:18 <EvanR> the IO type wraps the product type yes, as far as the types go
13:25:56 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> sorry
13:26:10 <EvanR> inside outside is also getting confused more when you get MonadBaseControl which calls the innermost "the base"
13:26:12 <EvanR> (I think)
13:26:25 <EvanR> is the base inside or outside the building
13:26:30 <EvanR> or tower
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13:26:49 <EvanR> it's underneath that's for sure
13:26:50 <tomsmeding> the "right-hand side" of `let x = a in b` is in the middle
13:27:00 <tomsmeding> and the "body" is on the right
13:27:27 <tomsmeding> the physical analogy only goes so far
13:27:41 <tomsmeding> it's counterproductive to try to stretch it to its limits
13:27:53 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i guess that's why people say monad transformers are confusing, because the type wrapping of IO doesn't follow the operational wrapping
13:28:10 <tomsmeding> not just with IO, that goes for most (all?) monad transformers
13:28:15 <tomsmeding> IO is not special here
13:28:18 <EvanR> MonadBaseControl would have you believe your "stack" is "based" on IO. But by the previous discussion your program underworld is hanging from the IO planetary crust!
13:28:29 <EvanR> I reject "wrapping"
13:28:35 <EvanR> because it sounds like values
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13:28:53 <EvanR> x, [x], [[x]], [[[x]]]
13:28:56 <EvanR> more wrapping
13:29:06 <tomsmeding> just expand all the newtypes and write the underlying function directly, dispense with this discussion
13:29:09 <EvanR> but people are probably talking about the type constructors
13:30:02 <EvanR> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/NAB9RiFP
13:30:40 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> yeah afaik, monad trans makes no sense without looking at the type definition, i don't think there's a simple rule to predict what the real construction is like until you see it
13:31:02 <EvanR> I couldn't call Empty "Nil" no matter how hard I tried. And I wanted to call this type NonDeterm but it was too long and numerous
13:31:19 <tomsmeding> what prevented "Nil"?
13:31:29 <EvanR> I kept typing Empty into the definitions
13:31:34 <tomsmeding> ah :p
13:31:38 <EvanR> so eventually I just changed the constructor to Empty
13:31:49 <tomsmeding> if you define Semigroup and Monoid instances then you can type 'mempty' instead
13:32:02 <tomsmeding> and with an Alternative instance, it could even be 'empty'
13:32:19 <EvanR> but it's being pattern matched, does it work as a pattern
13:32:24 <tomsmeding> ah, no
13:32:32 <EvanR> probably for the best
13:34:08 <tomsmeding> EvanR: if you put the 'empty' pattern-matching case last, i.e. after the Cons case, then it does work
13:34:11 <tomsmeding> just ignore the GHC warning
13:34:29 <EvanR> lol
13:34:51 <EvanR> gratuitous newtype
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13:35:10 <EvanR> new NonDeterm a = NonDeterm { getPossibilities :: [a] }
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13:37:17 <EvanR> so you're saying you can combine this monad with others
13:37:46 <EvanR> s -> [IO (a, s)]
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13:38:07 <EvanR> what did I just do
13:38:21 <tomsmeding> actually, the proper monad transformer for [a] is rather tricky
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13:38:38 <tomsmeding> you can write what you just did, but it doesn't work well
13:38:49 <tomsmeding> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/list-t-1.0.5.7/docs/ListT.html
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13:39:20 <kuribas> mixing backtracking with IO also is dangerous...
13:39:23 <tomsmeding> to understand what's going on there, note that `data KindOfAList a = KindOfAList (Maybe (a, KindOfAList a))` is essentially equivalent to [a]
13:40:52 <EvanR> what is the run function
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13:41:29 <EvanR> uncons :: ListT m a -> m (Maybe (a, ListT m a))
13:41:59 <tomsmeding> the run function of what?
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13:43:23 <EvanR> @unmtl ListT (State s) a
13:43:23 <lambdabot> s -> ([] a, s)
13:43:50 <EvanR> @unmtl StateT [] a
13:43:50 <lambdabot> err: `StateT [] a' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A. [] -> a (A, [])'
13:43:55 <EvanR> @unmtl StateT [] s a
13:43:55 <lambdabot> [] -> s (a, [])
13:44:15 <EvanR> squint
13:44:25 <EvanR> [s -> (a, [])] ?
13:44:43 <EvanR> no
13:44:59 <EvanR> [] is the wrong kind
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13:47:38 <tomsmeding> @unmtl StateT s [] a
13:47:38 <lambdabot> s -> [] (a, s)
13:48:06 <tomsmeding> the "inner monad" is always the penultimate argument, to fit the kind of MonadTrans
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13:49:19 <EvanR> oh [] was a datakind I guess
13:49:35 <EvanR> gotta love it
13:50:07 <EvanR> the more stuff the compiler accepts the less able it is to notice your nonsense
13:51:19 <EvanR> implementing s -> [] (a, s)
13:51:24 <EvanR> monad instance
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13:52:29 <tomsmeding> lambdabot's @unmtl is not smart enough for DataKinds, it just does dumb parsing I think
13:52:47 <tomsmeding> it knows `F a b c` as data types, so it translates `[a]` to `[] a` before doing anything
13:52:56 <tomsmeding> if the result doesn't kind check, that's up to the user
13:53:20 <tomsmeding> rather, if your _input_ to @unmtl doesn't kind check, then garbage-in garbage-out
13:54:32 <EvanR> lovely
13:54:51 <int-e> I suspect that it barely knows that [] is a type constructor
13:55:08 <int-e> @unmtl RWST a a a a a
13:55:08 <lambdabot> a -> a -> a (a, a, a)
13:55:22 <tomsmeding> @unmtl StateT StateT StateT StateT
13:55:22 <lambdabot> err: `StateT' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A B C. A -> B (C, A)'
13:55:24 <tomsmeding> oh
13:55:47 <tomsmeding> @unmtl StateT F F F
13:55:47 <lambdabot> F -> F (F, F)
13:56:01 <int-e> Oh, right, it will know the arity of the known MTL transformers.
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14:06:21 <EvanR> ok guess I should have done State before doing list state
14:06:37 <EvanR> maybe wikipedia was right
14:07:27 <tomsmeding> EvanR: the issue is more that [] doesn't lend itself well to making a transformer version
14:07:32 <int-e> EvanR: try to get Cont r a right the first time
14:07:41 <tomsmeding> State, Except, Reader, Parser etc. work much better as transformers
14:07:44 <int-e> first try, that is
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14:08:27 <EvanR> continuations. I know this </jurassicpark>
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14:32:12 <pdw> bgamari: In case you missed the date typo at https://www.haskell.org/ghc/, Latest News there lists the recent 9.12.2 release under "14 Mar 2024" (i.e. not '25). The 9.12.2 download page also has "released 14th Mar 2024".
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14:45:28 <mauke> 9.6.7 doesn't even exist exist
14:45:35 <mauke> s/exist$/yet/
14:45:48 <tomsmeding> yes it does
14:45:55 <tomsmeding> since, like, yesterday
14:46:24 <mauke> not according to the official website
14:46:31 <EvanR> shadow versions
14:46:34 <mauke> there's no release announcement
14:46:44 <tomsmeding> it was on the mailing list and it's in ghcup
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14:47:18 <mauke> the "secret menu"
14:48:22 <tomsmeding> other things were also forgotten apparently https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/ghc-devs/2025-March/021956.html
14:48:24 <JuanDaugherty> ghcup doesn wait or smoke test or nuthin?
14:48:36 <tomsmeding> it was released and ghcup does smoke test
14:48:41 <tomsmeding> it just wasn't posted on haskell.org
14:49:08 <JuanDaugherty> makes sense h,o be slow
14:49:14 <tomsmeding> there have also been release candidates and the maintainer of ghcup is aware of those, including what the actual difference is between the release candidates and the final release
14:49:37 <tomsmeding> if nothing changed between the final RC and the actual release, and the RC was already smoke tested, one doesn't need to wait
14:50:28 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> 9.6.7 release manager is in the hospital
14:50:48 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> So there might be some rough corners regarding release process
14:51:18 <tomsmeding> :/
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14:53:20 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> JuanDaugherty: Wait for what?
14:53:22 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Myself?
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14:54:19 <JuanDaugherty> haskellbridge <maerwald> y not
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14:55:05 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Release announcement went to: ghc-releases, discourse, haskell-cafe and the #haskell-releases:matrix.org channel
14:56:06 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Smoke tests are here https://github.com/haskell/ghcup-metadata/actions/runs/14034851759
14:56:09 <JuanDaugherty> i'm good with 9.6.6, just making convo; is something juicy in the new old branch?
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14:56:50 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> 9.6.6 has a kqueue bug
14:57:08 <JuanDaugherty> good to know, ty
14:57:29 <JuanDaugherty> for like sparks ans stuff?
14:57:36 <JuanDaugherty> *and
14:57:41 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.6.7/docs/users_guide/9.6.7-notes.html
14:57:52 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> FreeBSD is known to trigger it
14:58:14 <JuanDaugherty> but not linux?
14:58:41 <JuanDaugherty> (even better to know its on bumfuc OS)
14:59:06 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Check the release notes
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15:00:11 <EvanR> FreeBumfucSD?
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15:02:43 <EvanR> birkhoff Basic Geometry 3rd edition is annoying right here: the definition of locus is a figure which includes all the points that satisfy a given condition (or conditions) and no other points. Then regards this as an if and only if, with one direction going "if a point satisfies the condition, it's on the locus"
15:03:28 <JuanDaugherty> reviewing that reminded me of how sbcl is always fixin stuff that isn broke in the better cls
15:03:33 <EvanR> Then it goes on to prove the converse "if a point satisfies the condition, it lies on the locus" by using "The indirect method. For suppose that the condition is not true..."
15:04:02 <EvanR> I'm like that is evident directly from the definition why are you using an indirect method lol
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15:06:03 <EvanR> I wrote that backwards
15:06:14 <EvanR> the converse is "if a point lies on the locus, it satisfies the condition"
15:06:30 <EvanR> which if locus was a GADT-like thing with constructor OnLocus :: x:Point -> c:Condition x -> Locus c x
15:06:35 <EvanR> you would already know that
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15:33:42 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> question about this code
15:33:45 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://github.com/nammayatri/nammayatri/blob/main/Backend/app/provider-platform/dynamic-offer-driver-app/Main/src/Tools/SMS.hs
15:34:01 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> does sendSMS not actually use its where clause?
15:34:13 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> I mean, it calls handler, but I don't think it actually uses the other elements?
15:38:25 <mauke> {..} can hide many secrets
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15:39:12 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> yeah, that's what I'm assuming
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15:40:46 <EvanR> what does Sms.SmsHandler {..} mean on the right hand side
15:40:53 <EvanR> I've seen {..} in a pattern
15:41:14 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/record_wildcards.html
15:41:17 <mauke> same thing as in a pattern, but backwards
15:41:39 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i'm guessing it's somehow allowing the where names to override items
15:41:43 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> interesting technique
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15:42:29 <mauke> not much to override if there's nothing there in the first place
15:44:06 <EvanR> that is some weird syntax
15:44:15 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> sloccount says it's 290k lines, 250k lines haskell
15:44:19 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> Juspay, very interesting app
15:44:39 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://github.com/nammayatri/nammayatri
15:45:29 <EvanR> another way to "not repeat yourself" in Foo {a=a, b=b, c=c} is RecordPuns
15:46:02 <EvanR> then at least it doesn't seem to be spooky action at a distance
15:46:32 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> they could actually just inline the damn thing
15:46:57 <EvanR> that would be too easy to read
15:53:30 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> speaking of galapagos haskell
15:53:32 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://so.gitee.com/?q=haskell
15:54:02 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> apparently, #1, China has a policy of supporting FOSS, #2, Gitee is the approved Chinese FOSS repo, #3, you have to be approved by censors before your code posts
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15:56:15 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> not sure how mature this package is
15:56:17 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://gitee.com/flyingsheeplp/mynes
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16:04:51 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> haskell jp community is like a 10x larger galapagos
16:05:00 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> https://haskell.jp
16:05:02 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> you saw my XHS posting, right?
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16:05:08 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> nah
16:05:36 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i mean Kazu Yamamoto is like maintaining the network packages
16:05:52 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> and of course, what's his name, mr "implemented goto via free monads"
16:05:54 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> oh wait, you're the guy asking about typeable etc?
16:06:02 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> ;_;
16:06:14 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> so we're in the same wechat, then
16:06:44 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> i see
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16:07:49 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i was more wondering why Haskell is a total abortion in Haskell, like, according to them, EMQ only maintains winterland's legacy systems
16:07:58 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> erm, total abortion in China
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16:10:27 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> well it takes someone motivated
16:10:39 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> Vincent Zhang iirc blew up
16:10:46 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> he had a start-up, tried for a few years
16:10:52 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> gave up
16:10:54 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> or what was his name?
16:10:56 <EvanR> like lisp was based on church, an american, so lisp took off in america, while ML was based on russel and whitehead, and took off in europe
16:11:05 <EvanR> what's china's deal
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16:11:25 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> "using haskell" is not worth a single bullet point in your powerpoint to be shown to vcs obviously
16:11:36 geekosaur thinks it more likely that companies want cheap disposable programmers, therefore python and js
16:12:02 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> hey, huawei is a rust supporter
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16:14:06 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> i've no interest in why haskell has no momentum in china; i do have interest why you're obsessed with haskell in china
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16:20:16 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> lots of programmers, lots of increasingly good programmers
16:20:45 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i see it like Thinkpad, which IBM was profiting off marginally, got bought out by Lenovo, became way more profitable although, obviously, the brand was tarnished somewhat
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16:21:18 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> of course, in this scenario, Anduril moved first, and they're funding Well-Typed
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16:25:29 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> EvanR: apparently Chinese devs were trained heavily on C++, and one thing to notice is that productivity enhancing tools are less important when you have cheap labor
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16:25:53 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> Indian developers, for instance, make 1/20th the salaries of American developers
16:26:22 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> the cost of labor is much more expensive relative to capital, which probably explains why Huawei and Bytedance went for Rust
16:26:29 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> well then, either some chinese firm needs to make a real profit using haskell, or they need to maintain a fork that they can rebrand as an innovative product to get government grant
16:26:40 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> because Rust essentially has no hardware efficiency cost relative to C++
16:26:42 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> the latter is much more pragmatic
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16:27:03 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> terrorjack: I'd say, a Chinese firm makes a real profit with a real product, but founders are a bit Haskell-crazy
16:27:17 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> the Chinese are just too pragmatic, I think there were many problems historically with commercial Haskell that enabled only niche use
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16:27:53 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> the choice of language in this day and age matters less than what your business plan is and what your organization is
16:28:01 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> wish them all the luck lol
16:28:10 <EvanR> this programming language class warfare is unsettling
16:28:19 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> no shortage of hobbyists in school, but as they graduate they need to put food on the table. end of story
16:28:42 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> "programming language class"? sorry?
16:29:09 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> there are only half baked compiler construction classes that waste over half of the time to teach you about automatas and how to write parsers
16:29:59 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> He meant class warfare, but you can see how social class influences the sociology of Haskell, right?
16:30:19 <EvanR> that's funny where your parsing of my message stopped
16:30:26 <EvanR> it was only 3 more words I promise
16:30:53 <haskellbridge> <terrorjack> ah, class warfare as in class struggle
16:31:06 <EvanR> I don't know about social class I figured it was more about educational background
16:31:13 <EvanR> which I guess could be related
16:31:41 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> one of the drives in Haskell community, I think, is to not be a commodity programmer working an equivalent of 996, which is a potential selling point of Haskell
16:32:01 <EvanR> that sounds like "elitism" that we're always getting accused of
16:32:32 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i'm unsettled too, i guess
16:33:04 <EvanR> but getting a better job should be a drive in general regardless of language or field
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16:33:46 <EvanR> despite what we might hear from the government xD
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16:35:32 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> iirc the archetypical chinese developer career is that you work your ass off until you're 35, when you can't handle the schedule anymore, then you either retire or move into management
16:35:59 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> pay is supposed to be better than the alternatives
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16:36:29 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> the long-term investment part of haskell, then, is probably not there
16:40:11 <EvanR> one area I was wondering about is embedded chips. When the memory is low, haskell has no chance of running aiui
16:40:22 <EvanR> though there are DSLs to produce programs for low memory environments
16:41:26 <EvanR> with the increased amount of computronium in products this explains a lack of haskell, or opportunity for such safe DSLs
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16:45:39 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> Travis Whittaker is working on it, and I think that's one thing they're funding Well-Typed for
16:45:54 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> I like Linear Haskell
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16:51:40 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> the unfortunate part, though, is that much of the work will end up being classified
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17:03:48 <merijn> EvanR: Just program your chip directly in Haskell ;)
17:03:54 <merijn> @where clash
17:03:54 <lambdabot> I know nothing about clash.
17:03:56 <merijn> aww
17:04:05 <EvanR> you mean the hardware design
17:04:13 <merijn> yeah
17:04:13 <merijn> https://clash-lang.org
17:04:34 <merijn> Also, there was a project for low-level Haskell
17:05:08 <merijn> I forget the name of the spec
17:05:13 <mauke> @where+ clash https://clash-lang.org/
17:05:13 <lambdabot> Okay.
17:05:39 <EvanR> cooool
17:06:02 <merijn> EvanR: It was a project at the university of Oregon (iirc)
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17:06:20 <merijn> The project is dead before they did anything in terms of usable artifacts, but the spec is an interesting read
17:06:24 <merijn> I just can't remember the bloody name
17:06:50 <EvanR> retrocomputing
17:06:58 <EvanR> not to be confused with reversible computing
17:08:44 <merijn> EvanR: Ah, Habit that was it
17:09:04 <merijn> EvanR: https://www.habit-lang.org
17:09:51 <EvanR> now I remember that one
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17:28:14 <EvanR> int-e, well my Cont Monad instance typechecked I dunno if it's right though
17:28:49 <EvanR> probably wrong
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17:37:33 <cheater> i thought retrocomputing was where you uncompute data, reversing the entropy gradient compared to normal computing
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17:39:33 <gogetter> are here any mentors for gsoc?
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17:44:22 <EvanR> cheater, I said NOT to be confused
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17:45:08 <cheater> sorry, i retrocomputed your sentence and all i got was "those two things are exactly the same."
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18:04:42 <Sayman> Hi there, as I discussed about the enhancements in yesod framework. So I have submitted my proposal on it after getting an appreciative message from one of you, can you guide me what should be my next step to get selected?
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18:08:01 Clint squints.
18:10:37 <Sayman> what do you mean by that?
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18:21:19 <EvanR> are you an artificial intelligence
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18:23:11 <Sayman> no I am a human being, but yeah if you are asking of an ai student so that's what my current field of studies for graduation
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18:28:30 <cheater> no he's asking if you're a bot because you talk like a bot
18:28:50 <cheater> your message was refering to context that wasn't there
18:29:00 <cheater> try relaxing a bit and talking like a human being
18:29:32 <tomsmeding> calm down a bit. Sayman posted here before -- I remember, but clearly cheater does not
18:29:43 <EvanR> yes they did
18:30:06 <cheater> i'm calm, just explaining where Evan's comment comes from
18:30:07 <tomsmeding> Sayman: on irc, people are far from always actively watching the channel, so if your previous message was a while ago, you can count on it that the readers now will not have the context from last time
18:30:26 <tomsmeding> also EvanR: accusing someone of being an AI is rather... rude.
18:30:45 <tomsmeding> (or you have a _much_ better opinion of current AI than I do.)
18:31:29 <cheater> i don't think he was being fully serious
18:31:49 <cheater> but if he was, i suggest we throw Evan into the pit
18:31:56 <tomsmeding> Sayman: re "next step to get selected": contact the haskell GSoC people, there ought to be some names or contact details somewhere. No one can guarantee you get selected, obviously -- but it can't hurt to get in touch with actual human beings behind the program
18:32:14 <tomsmeding> cheater: fair :)
18:32:39 <Sayman> okay but how to get there contacts?
18:32:47 <tomsmeding> where did you subit?
18:32:50 <tomsmeding> *submit
18:33:13 <Sayman> I am sorry I thought I was just talking normally!
18:33:20 <EvanR> does half serious get the half-pit
18:33:33 <tomsmeding> I think you were. :)
18:33:33 <Sayman> I submitted the proposal in GSoC official site
18:33:41 <Sayman> after registring
18:34:00 <Sayman> *Registering
18:34:04 <tomsmeding> I looked here https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/programs/2025/organizations/haskellorg and found https://summer.haskell.org/contact.html through there
18:34:22 <tomsmeding> the haskell.org committee seems a bit broad for this, but given as it's linked here, perhaps they know who to turn to
18:34:52 <tomsmeding> this channel is also mentioned there, but this is a general haskell channel -- perhaps you'll accidentally find some GSoC people here too, but not necessarily
18:35:34 <tomsmeding> EvanR: perhaps. :P
18:35:42 <Sayman> Ohh okay I just posted this here
18:35:53 <tomsmeding> EvanR: though not sure what being thrown in a half-pit entails, practically
18:36:02 <Sayman> Because I found the link to this chat group in GSoC official site
18:36:27 <tomsmeding> this is a good place to ask help about haskell, not about GSoC specifically. :)
18:36:42 <tomsmeding> *ask for
18:36:58 <Sayman> and fun fact it's midnight in my country and I am just sitting infront of my laptop reading about how people got confuse between a normal human being and a bot :)
18:37:09 <Sayman> Ohh okay
18:37:14 <tomsmeding> :)
18:37:27 <tomsmeding> to be fair, there's too many bots these days, some paranoia is perhaps to be expected :p
18:37:30 <Sayman> Now I understoof the general purpose of this community channel
18:37:51 <tomsmeding> though asking is unlikely to get an honest answer from a bot, perhaps.
18:37:59 <Sayman> tomsmeding I can understand
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18:38:37 <EvanR> tomsmeding, +3 bonus on your roll to get out
18:40:06 <tomsmeding> on a d-howmany?
18:40:42 <EvanR> 6
18:41:59 <tomsmeding> I guess that would work :p
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22:33:41 <otto_s> Hello.
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22:34:21 <otto_s> What is an explanation of the following: ?
22:34:25 <otto_s> let x = -1 :: Complex Double
22:34:36 <otto_s> let y = (-1):+0 :: Complex Double
22:35:12 <otto_s> Then x == y evaluates to True, but log x == log y evaluates to False.
22:35:40 <otto_s> (The logs are conjugates of each other.)
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22:38:14 <otto_s> (And I know that both are in a sense "good" answers of the log function -- that's not my questions.)
22:38:37 <otto_s> *-s
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22:50:54 <EvanR> > log (-1 :: Complex Double)
22:50:55 <lambdabot> 0.0 :+ (-3.141592653589793)
22:51:05 <EvanR> > log ((-1) :+ 0 :: Complex Double)
22:51:07 <lambdabot> 0.0 :+ 3.141592653589793
22:51:42 <EvanR> > decodeFloat (realPart (-1 :: Complex Double))
22:51:43 <lambdabot> (-4503599627370496,-52)
22:51:58 <EvanR> > decodeFloat (realPart ((-1) :+ 0 :: Complex Double))
22:51:59 <lambdabot> (-4503599627370496,-52)
22:52:15 <EvanR> > decodeFloat (imaginaryPart (-1 :: Complex Double))
22:52:16 <lambdabot> error:
22:52:16 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: imaginaryPart :: Complex Double -> a0
22:52:46 <EvanR> check the imaginary parts
22:53:12 <geekosaur> :t imagPart
22:53:13 <lambdabot> Complex a -> a
22:54:03 <EvanR> > decodeFloat (imagPart (-1 :: Complex Double))
22:54:05 <lambdabot> (0,0)
22:54:15 <EvanR> > decodeFloat (imagPart ((-1) :+ 0 :: Complex Double))
22:54:17 <lambdabot> (0,0)
22:54:18 <otto_s> > decodeFloat $ imagPart ((-1) :+ 0)
22:54:19 <lambdabot> (0,0)
22:54:23 <EvanR> o_O
22:54:31 <otto_s> I see no difference! ^^
22:54:35 <EvanR> what is the log function depending on
22:54:50 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
22:54:52 <EvanR> here's something
22:55:01 <EvanR> > decodeFloat 0
22:55:02 <lambdabot> (0,0)
22:55:07 <EvanR> > decodeFloat (-0)
22:55:08 <lambdabot> (0,0)
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22:55:25 <EvanR> that's the only thing I can think of
22:55:35 <mauke> > owl
22:55:36 <lambdabot> (0,0)
22:55:52 <EvanR> (.) . (.)
22:56:01 <mauke> > negate (2 :+ 3)
22:56:02 <lambdabot> (-2.0) :+ (-3.0)
22:56:07 <mauke> hah
22:56:20 <mauke> yes, so unary - negates both parts
22:56:29 <otto_s> Ah.
22:56:39 <otto_s> > isNegativeZero $ imagPart (-1 :: Complex Double)
22:56:40 <lambdabot> True
22:56:56 <otto_s> isNegativeZero $ imagPart ((-1) :+ 0 :: Complex Double)
22:57:00 <otto_s> > isNegativeZero $ imagPart ((-1) :+ 0 :: Complex Double)
22:57:02 <lambdabot> False
22:57:16 <EvanR> mystery solved
22:57:22 <otto_s> Yes. :)
22:57:26 <EvanR> and decodeFloat is not the be all end all of the value
22:57:44 <mauke> > let x = 0; y = -0 in (x == y, recip x == recip y)
22:57:46 <lambdabot> (True,False)
22:58:26 <EvanR> float functions break congruence of function application
22:58:47 <mauke> petition to remove Double from the language
22:58:54 <otto_s> Hehe.
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23:03:22 <geekosaur> keep it but require `import IEEE754Insanity`
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23:06:16 <otto_s> Is there a reason, why the imaginary party of -1 :: Complex Double *should* be -0 ?
23:08:54 <otto_s> Oh, I see, mauke answered that already.
23:10:41 <otto_s> Floats are evil. *g*
23:10:43 <geekosaur> I think the full answer involves complex numbers as being on a plane, and having trig on them produce results in the correct quadrant?
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23:12:26 <otto_s> No, I think the culprit is just:
23:12:29 <otto_s> > isNegativeZero $ negate 0
23:12:31 <lambdabot> True
23:13:12 <geekosaur> right, but what I said is why the whole "negative zero" thing exists in the first place. see also atan2
23:13:17 <otto_s> (and then late, of course, how log decides where to go)
23:14:11 <otto_s> Yes.
23:15:39 <geekosaur> sadly it's been a looong time since I last did this stuff so it's all become kinda fuzzy ("use it or lose it")
23:16:25 <geekosaur> last time I touched it was 1985
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