Logs on 2025-04-02 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:00:55 | ShePT | is now known as She |
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| 07:47:28 | <[exa]> | Liamzee: oh wow the linear-base fix is in |
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| 07:51:37 | <tomsmeding> | teamwork :) |
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| 08:02:08 | <Digit> | TIL the programming language we're using is called "God Helmet". ("Haskell" Norse name meaning.) :) |
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| 08:14:05 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> does anyone know how to get "hint" to interpret source files that contain imports? |
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| 08:18:56 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> oh nvm just build with the option to export an env file |
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| 12:04:03 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> does anyone know what's the analogue to "readFile" as a yampa "SF" function? |
| 12:13:52 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah nvm, it's not supposed to be an "SF" function but an input function for "reactimate" (i think) |
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| 16:55:04 | <EvanR> | in haskell and elixir the value of pi is displayed by default as 3.141592653589793 |
| 16:55:48 | <EvanR> | but if you use the float.h DBL_DECIMAL_DIG to choose number of significant digits to printf M_PI |
| 16:56:39 | <EvanR> | you get 3.1415926535897931 |
| 16:57:14 | <EvanR> | is C the odd man out here on acceptable round tripping of floats |
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| 16:58:20 | <int-e> | > read (show pi) == pi |
| 16:58:21 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 16:59:33 | <EvanR> | it (sometimes?) seems that DBL_DECIMAL_DIG with %g shows one more digit than necessary |
| 16:59:51 | <int-e> | > read "3.1415926535897931" == pi |
| 16:59:53 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 16:59:59 | <int-e> | > read "3.1415926535897930" == pi |
| 17:00:01 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 17:00:20 | <EvanR> | > printf "%.17g" pi :: String |
| 17:00:21 | <lambdabot> | "3.14159265358979300" |
| 17:00:28 | <int-e> | > (length (show (2*sqrt 2)), length (show pi)) |
| 17:00:30 | <lambdabot> | (18,17) |
| 17:00:56 | <EvanR> | haskell printf is playing a different game |
| 17:00:59 | <int-e> | printf is built on top of `show`, isn't it |
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| 17:03:02 | <EvanR> | ruby is agreeing with elixir and haskell |
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| 17:03:51 | <EvanR> | and python |
| 17:06:24 | <int-e> | well it should arguable produce a truncated and properly rounded approximation of 3.141592653589793115997963468544185161590576171875 = toRational pi |
| 17:06:50 | <int-e> | so 3.1415926535897931 is better in that sense than 3.1415926535897930 |
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| 17:10:11 | <EvanR> | yes but all these other languages are using a "better" (shorter) approximation that still works |
| 17:10:25 | <int-e> | % GHC.Internal.Float.floatToDigits 10 pi |
| 17:10:25 | <yahb2> | ([3,1,4,1,5,9,2,6,5,3,5,8,9,7,9,3],1) |
| 17:11:01 | <int-e> | That's all the digits you'll get from GHC's implementation of `show` and `Numeric` |
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| 17:25:51 | <EvanR> | looking for a float which haskell prints out with 17 sigfigs instead of 16, to see if DBL_DECIMAL_DIG is not full of shit xD |
| 17:26:16 | <int-e> | > show (sqrt 8) |
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| 17:26:17 | <lambdabot> | "2.8284271247461903" |
| 17:26:38 | <int-e> | > show (sqrt 8) |
| 17:26:40 | <lambdabot> | "2.8284271247461903" |
| 17:26:49 | <int-e> | > show (pi / 2) |
| 17:26:51 | <lambdabot> | "1.5707963267948966" |
| 17:27:24 | <int-e> | (it's less likely to use 16 digits between 1 and 2 than between 2 and 4) |
| 17:27:31 | <int-e> | (well, I think) |
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| 17:29:09 | <int-e> | > show (pi-2) -- checking that theory |
| 17:29:11 | <lambdabot> | "1.1415926535897931" |
| 17:30:54 | <EvanR> | > show pi |
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| 17:30:55 | <lambdabot> | "3.141592653589793" |
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| 17:31:08 | <EvanR> | lol, pi is like the only one which is short xD |
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| 17:31:25 | <EvanR> | note to self not a great "random irrational" |
| 17:31:45 | <c_wraith> | technically, its operating constraint is that it produces the shortest decimal that parses back to the same bit pattern. |
| 17:31:54 | <EvanR> | > read "1.1415926535897931" :: Double |
| 17:31:55 | <lambdabot> | 1.1415926535897931 |
| 17:32:01 | <EvanR> | > read "1.1415926535897930" :: Double |
| 17:32:03 | <lambdabot> | 1.141592653589793 |
| 17:32:14 | <EvanR> | c_wraith, right, it seems many languages do this |
| 17:32:28 | <int-e> | > read "1.1415926535897929" :: Double |
| 17:32:29 | <lambdabot> | 1.141592653589793 |
| 17:32:53 | <EvanR> | I guess C is so old they "never thought of it" |
| 17:33:16 | <EvanR> | though %g does produce a shorter version if it would end in zeros |
| 17:33:28 | <EvanR> | it doesn't produce "shortest representation that would parse back to the original value" |
| 17:33:50 | <c_wraith> | yeah, it's actually hard to get that behavior from C |
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| 17:34:47 | <int-e> | > show (19/12) |
| 17:34:49 | <lambdabot> | "1.5833333333333333" |
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| 17:38:04 | <int-e> | EvanR: evidence for "this is more likely between 2 and 4 than it is between 1 and 2": https://paste.tomsmeding.com/N7G3UvE3 |
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| 17:38:47 | <EvanR> | I would think floats is more or less isomorphic between those two intervals. But I guess the relation between decimal and float is not |
| 17:39:21 | <c_wraith> | yeah.. You can get up to 3 bits in the first digit |
| 17:39:32 | <c_wraith> | If the number starts with 8 or 9 |
| 17:39:44 | <int-e> | but the least significant bit has 2x more weight between 2 and 4 than between 1 and 2, so there are cases where you can round more. |
| 17:40:17 | <c_wraith> | Uh. I suppose I actually mean > 8, < 10 |
| 17:41:02 | <EvanR> | I feel like you're probably saying something that makes sense |
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| 17:41:20 | <EvanR> | dunno what though xD |
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| 17:43:02 | <EvanR> | there is a lot going on in int-e's post |
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| 18:43:35 | <monochrom> | IIRC there was a paper linked here about an algorithm for the shortest decimal form that still gets you the floating point value you want. |
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| 18:50:29 | <EvanR> | https://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/cs257/archive/florian-loitsch/printf.pdf ? |
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| 19:02:48 | <EvanR> | it's funny that parsing the float is relatively easy (?) |
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| 20:09:18 | <EvanR> | looks like I'm wrong (Clinger 1990) |
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| 21:51:58 | <EvanR> | https://www.ryanjuckett.com/printing-floating-point-numbers/ the first part of the first post in this blog series has some summary of the history and references (but not to Clinger 90s paper) |
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| 22:03:09 | <EvanR> | dragon algorithm (Steele90) prints out a float in decimal and bellerophon undoes it (Clinger90) |
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| 22:07:51 | <EvanR> | Steele and White's paper bases the description of the printing problem (the shortest decimal representation which could be read back in to get the original correct value) on a hypothetical algorithm that would read in a string and get the closest float approximation |
| 22:08:29 | <EvanR> | but people working on an IEEE standard for scheme were wondering if any such algorithm existed |
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| 22:10:23 | <EvanR> | Clinger worked on it and in a first draft, supposed that Steel and White's algorithm existed, and possibly use it as a fallback in case the efficient part of his algorithm failed (guess and check) |
| 22:10:38 | <EvanR> | until somebody mentioned that that's probably problematic |
| 22:12:45 | <EvanR> | (e.g. if you have a float that is known to be close to the closest approximation of the decimal number, then you can try to print out a few floats around it to see if they work better) |
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| 22:17:22 | <EvanR> | Theorem 5 of Clinger: For n >= 5, no finite automaton computes the significand of the best n-bit binary floating approximation to f x 10^e where f and e are presented in base 10 |
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