Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2025-04-14 (liberachat/#haskell)

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05:53:16 <Leary> So I just concocted something funny: `type data Preserved (t :: k) = P k` (for selectively preserving type information under a kind-indexed existential). Looks like the sort of thing dependent-typing people might have a better name for---anyone know?
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05:57:57 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> "data Preserved (t :: k) where P :: k -> Preserved t" is this how it would be written using GADTSyntax?
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05:59:12 <Leary> Yes.
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05:59:44 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Because if that's the case, there is probably no name for it on dependently typed land because it requires TypeInType (or some uncommon setup), notice that k is a kind and also belongs to sort *
06:03:49 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> More generally, anything like "k -> t" where "t :: k" is not well kinded unless "k :: k", note that "forall k. t" is ok tho, because "t :: k" but not "k :: k"
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07:26:18 <Leary> Bowuigi: Tried to grok, but I'm not quite seeing the argument. I can more-or-less tell that it's bad at the value level, but it seems like it should be alright at the type or kind level?
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07:32:39 <tomsmeding> Agda accepts this: data Preserved {n : Level} {k : Set n} (t : k) : Set n where P : k -> Preserved {n} {k} t
07:33:52 <tomsmeding> in this case if I'm not mistaken, the intent is n=1, making Preserved a kind, not a type
07:36:47 <Leary> Yes; it's `type data`, so `P` is a type and `Preserved` is a kind.
07:37:07 <tomsmeding> (my hedging was more about the agda levels than about the haskell side)
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07:38:55 <tomsmeding> Bowuigi: 'k -> t' is only bad at the value level _in haskell_ where fields of a data type must be values
07:39:21 <tomsmeding> if I understand correctly, type theory does not make a distinction between 'forall k. t' and 'k -> t'
07:39:40 <tomsmeding> it's both a Pi type where we ignore the binding, i.e. Pi[_ : k] t
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07:40:55 <tomsmeding> er, correction: the haskell syntax means `Pi[k : Set 1] t` respectively `Pi[_ : k] t`
07:41:18 <tomsmeding> in any case, no one says that in the latter case, k : Set 0
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10:37:34 <ncf> Leary: Preserved t is isomorphic to the type of t, so one might call this typeOf
10:38:21 <ncf> (well, it's a typeOf that only works if the type is a universe. not sure what one would use that for in a dependently typed setting)
10:39:12 <ncf> i don't know why you're talking about existentials
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10:43:53 <ncf> tomsmeding: (k : _) → t and (_ : k) → t are very different
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11:04:31 <Leary> ncf: Not bad---cheers---I might use `KindOf`. Re existentials, the context is of a `data family k @ (t :: k)` with `data A k where A :: k @ t -> A k`. I have `newtype instance Type @ a = Plural a`, but you can't put that under `A` or it will just be `A Type`; useless. I wanted `data instance KindOf a @ t where Kind :: a -> KindOf a @ Kind Type` so I could write e.g. `retrieve :: A (KindOf a) -> a`.
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12:48:42 <tomsmeding> ncf: yes, I realised that after I made the claim :p
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14:49:00 <haskellbridge> <soyr> Anyone know where I could find some info on adbmal notation?
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14:50:43 <[exa]> soyr: oh man that name is scary
14:52:11 <[exa]> anyway there's a lot of resources, it just doesn't google well (see https://repository.ubn.ru.nl/bitstream/handle/2066/143746/143746.pdf )
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14:54:01 <[exa]> (oh wait that's only related)
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14:59:55 <[exa]> correction: it does not google well at all
15:02:48 <haskellbridge> <soyr> [exa]: lmao why
15:03:01 <haskellbridge> <soyr> it does read a bit like redrum
15:03:11 <haskellbridge> <soyr> lambda calculus but in a hotel of death ig
15:03:24 <tomsmeding> soyr: is it this thing? https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-45085-6_11
15:03:30 <haskellbridge> <soyr> [exa]: yeah ive been trying to find a good doc on it for a while
15:04:26 <haskellbridge> <soyr> tomsmeding: Yes
15:04:28 <tomsmeding> I can get you a PDF if you can't download it directly
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15:04:31 <haskellbridge> <soyr> exactly that, thanks
15:04:40 <haskellbridge> <soyr> nah, its ok, my uni has access
15:04:43 <tomsmeding> nice
15:05:00 <haskellbridge> <soyr> thankyou so much. Idk why it doesnt google right
15:05:12 <haskellbridge> <soyr> even with the author name i can barely find mentions of it
15:05:18 <tomsmeding> perhaps because the title of the paper is not "adbmal" but this weird symbol
15:05:33 <haskellbridge> <soyr> yeah probably
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15:05:48 <haskellbridge> <soyr> what a weird research paper name anyways
15:05:59 <tomsmeding> anyway the way I found it was by searching for "adbmal" here https://dblp.uni-trier.de/
15:06:15 <[exa]> dude, way to name a paper
15:06:38 <ColinRobinson> "what is backward lambda notation adbmal" googled ok for me here
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15:08:02 <JuanDaugherty> didn pay it no mind tho
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15:15:56 <haskellbridge> <soyr> tomsmeding: bookmarking this
15:16:26 <haskellbridge> <soyr> ColinRobinson: i tried adbmal + any possible combination of terms relating to it and didnt find anything
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15:18:30 <ColinRobinson> soyr, k
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16:15:06 <EvanR> in the standard lore for untyped lambda calculus you are told here is a lambda notation, it basically denotes a (n anonymous) function. Then immediately people questioned this in light of other now standard lore, that a function "is" a certain set of pairs associating elements of the domain to the codomain, and naive understanding of ULC "functions" domains being apparently unfounded
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16:16:16 <EvanR> alright so they figured a way out of this dilemma eventually, but now I'm questioning of typed lambda calculus actually gets off more easily. By identifying the source and target types with domains and codomains
16:16:42 <EvanR> or if that's still problematic
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17:19:37 <Wygulmage> So, I can change the reported sizeof a `MutableByteArray#` `x` with `WriteIntArray# x newsize`. How badly will that mess with the RTS (assuming no code believes the new sizeof)?
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17:20:48 <Wygulmage> Sorry, that's `writeIntArray# x ( -1# ) newsize` .
17:22:29 <Wygulmage> I know it's absolutely terrible, but I want to store an extra bit of information by changing the sign of the `MutableByteArray#` . If that doesn't, for example, cause GC to do terrible things.
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17:23:54 <Wygulmage> I've tried it out in ghci, and at least it didn't launch any missiles.
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17:25:40 <Wygulmage> I know foundational libraries already do sketchy things with ByteArray#s, like text's builder freezing them and then continuing to mutate parts of them.
17:28:19 <EvanR> goes without saying that accessing primitives outside the official API isn't guaranteed to work between versions
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17:33:27 <Wygulmage> EvanR: Well, yeah. Just wondering if the current version relies on the length field of a MutableByteArray# when doing allocation or GC.
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17:46:07 <EvanR> looking at the GHC source code, it seems that the size fields of the array heap objects are heavily used
17:46:14 <EvanR> which wouldn't be surprising
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17:51:24 <Wygulmage> EvanR: Thanks! I was looking through the GHC code in rts/sm/ and hadn't found it yet.
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17:53:29 <EvanR> do you have some reason to think that field is just ignored
17:55:36 <Wygulmage> I wasn't sure whether it was purely part of the user-facing `ByteString#` API, or if the RTS also relied on it.
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17:57:31 <Wygulmage> I was also surprised when I found out that freezing a `MutableByteArray#` and then continuing to mutate it doesn't have Bad Effects as long as you don't inspect those parts of the `ByteArray#` .
17:57:47 <Wygulmage> Sorry, `ByteArray#` API, not `ByteString` #` .
18:02:47 <EvanR> see include/rts/storage/ClosureMacros.h for getting the size of an array closure
18:02:54 <c_wraith> Wygulmage: indeed. behavior only gets undefined when you could conceivably observe the change
18:02:57 <EvanR> used in ClosureSize.c
18:03:26 <EvanR> which defines a closure size measuring function which is used in many places
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18:04:34 <c_wraith> Wygulmage: and even then, it's not UB like in C. The compiler doesn't assume branches leading to it can't happen. It just doesn't guarantee any particular result.
18:06:02 <EvanR> I suspect garbage collection is not the only activity that needs to look at these object sizes
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18:12:40 <monochrom> EvanR: Typed lambda calculus is unproblematic as you said. Until it is also polymorphic and we start asking how to model e.g. "forall a. a->a" in standard math.
18:13:17 <EvanR> but is it, even without polymorphism
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18:14:04 <Wygulmage> So it's `case ARR_WORDS: return arr_words_sizeW((StgArrBytes *)p);` in `closure_sizeW_`  in ghc/rts/ClosureSize.c.
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18:16:15 <EvanR> the standard story is "this is haskell. Our functions are *math functions*" on close inspection seems to be surprisingly disclaimertastic
18:17:05 <EvanR> and it goes back to lambda calculus
18:17:50 <c_wraith> most of our functions are math functions.
18:18:00 <c_wraith> But the underlying theory is domain theory
18:18:17 <c_wraith> And then there are the functions that are total lies, like unsafePerformIO
18:19:17 <Wygulmage> And then there are statistics functions that use `Double` . I don't think you're going to find 'honest' 'math functions' in many places.
18:19:30 <EvanR> originally I thought domain theory was there to deal with laziness
18:19:42 <EvanR> but I guess you need it even for eager
18:20:10 <c_wraith> Eh. Double math is *math*, but it's on a very weird non-ring
18:21:00 <c_wraith> yeah, domain theory helps with any kind of non-termination. laziness just lets you put the non-termination inside of values, not just function calls.
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18:22:05 <Wygulmage> Does domain theory also help with imprecise exceptions? Or is that irrelevant?
18:22:07 <EvanR> yes functions on double are functions but don't follow the usual laws
18:22:56 <c_wraith> domain theory addresses bottoms, but I don't think it distinguishes between different bottoms. And imprecise exceptions are about not always getting exactly the specific bottom you'd expect.
18:23:08 <monochrom> If a function in Haskell is a total function, we can use the simple model of "it's a math function".
18:24:08 <EvanR> rather, you have to think harder about the domain
18:24:35 <monochrom> But even if you bring in domain theory, it is not too far off. There is one aspect you don't lose: referential transparency.
18:25:24 <monochrom> When teaching, the only reason I tell students "like math function" is only to mean "not like C function".
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18:26:49 <monochrom> Later in the course I will show students a good dose of bottom and domain theory. By then they have probably forgot or forgiven my initial 0th-order approximation "like math function".
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18:28:00 <EvanR> newtype D = D (D -> D), here's an example without polymorphism
18:28:35 <EvanR> extensionally I guess you can't tell the difference between elements, but isn't it also the case with LC
18:29:07 <monochrom> Polymorphism creates a problem that domain theory doesn't solve.
18:29:38 <monochrom> Namely, what's the "forall a" doing there in "forall a. a->a".
18:30:21 <EvanR> in the paper introducing the milner type system they have 2 interpretations
18:30:39 <EvanR> one which plays nice with set theory one which doesn't
18:30:40 <monochrom> It gets worse when you also have impredicativity, e.g., what's "Maybe (forall a. a->a)".
18:31:26 <EvanR> but anyway maybe this is a bad example, it seems the only possible values of D -> Double are constant functions
18:31:50 <EvanR> making any structure in D invisible
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18:36:08 <EvanR> imprecise exceptions seems bad, but if you take "precision" too far you will now have to make sure normal exceptions are properly prioritized over like running out of memory
18:36:22 <EvanR> or under
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18:37:55 <tomsmeding> I'm not sure how to prioritise anything over running out of memory
18:38:13 <c_wraith> So you probably shouldn't promise that you will. :)
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18:38:35 <monochrom> prioritize out of time over out of memory >:)
18:39:00 <c_wraith> and actually, the JVM tries to. It keeps some memory in reserve with which to throw an OutOfMemoryError
18:39:29 <c_wraith> The odds of *handling* that successfully are low, but it tries to allow it
18:39:39 <Wygulmage> EvanR: That's something I've often thought about w.r.t. `error: mzero` and MonadPlus laws. You certainly can make `error: mzero` the least important exception, but doing so has a cost.
18:39:57 <EvanR> tomsmeding, yeah more likely prioritize running out of memory first xD
18:40:12 <EvanR> also out of time
18:40:35 <EvanR> to satisfy relativity they have equal priorities
18:40:55 <monochrom> heh
18:41:42 <mauke> look, it's easy. just suspend the program until memory becomes available or someone upgrades your RAM
18:42:05 <EvanR> "it's not stuck. It's waiting for more resources"
18:42:12 <monochrom> cryogenic computing
18:42:57 <monochrom> Actually I like that.
18:42:58 <Wygulmage> I mean, if you're running it on a remote VM and can just pay for more RAM and get it in a few milliseconds...
18:43:36 <EvanR> catch OutOfMemoryError { purchaseMoreMemory bankAccount }
18:43:44 <monochrom> Actually no, I take that back. That just shifts the question to one additional level.
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18:44:12 <Wygulmage> As long as you don't have to pay for overdrawn memory.
18:44:28 <EvanR> make bankAccount an Integer and you're good
18:44:37 <tomsmeding> does any OS support dynamically adding more RAM at runtime?
18:45:00 <c_wraith> probably some of those mainframe OSes.
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18:45:18 <c_wraith> several of them are designed to hotswap/add anything without bringing the system down
18:45:23 <monochrom> So "suspend" should include dumping core into some storage. Now the new question is "what if you're also out of storage".
18:45:23 <tomsmeding> running a mainframe OS in a virtual machine sounds perfectly like 2025
18:45:24 <mauke> plug&play
18:46:00 <EvanR> core is dumped to the drum
18:46:12 <EvanR> drum is dumped to the hallway
18:46:22 <monochrom> heh
18:46:27 <int-e> tomsmeding: I'm under the impression that this does just that: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/admin-guide/mm/memory-hotplug.rst
18:46:50 <int-e> Somehow it never seemed relevant enough to read in detail though ;-)
18:46:58 <Wygulmage> You're giving me nostalgia for the tape room at LBL.
18:47:04 <monochrom> That's what I fear. "what if hallway is also full". You can daisychain ω levels of those.
18:47:12 <tomsmeding> int-e: TIL that exists
18:47:19 <int-e> monochrom: just move operations to Hilbert's Hotel
18:48:10 <monochrom> Hilbert's Hotel is perfectly balanced with no exploits.
18:48:12 <mauke> hilbert's data center
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18:48:26 <EvanR> you can't DOS hilbert's hotel
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18:49:01 <monochrom> Hilbert's Linux
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20:53:01 <andrewboltachev> Hello. I've just installed ghcup, while I already had stack and a big project built using it. When I run stack install, it tries to install older version of ghc: 9.8.2, not the latest one from ghcup: 9.12.2. Is that expected behaviour?
20:53:55 <tomsmeding> andrewboltachev: in a stack project, the stack.yaml file defines a 'resolver' that determines the GHC version and a set of package versions that the project will be built with
20:54:32 <tomsmeding> 9.8.2 is indeed not the latest GHC version, but it is still very much supported, so it's a fine version to use
20:54:57 <haskellbridge> <sm> "snapshot" is the preferred term these days (same thing)
20:55:14 <tomsmeding> andrewboltachev: note: if you're using ghcup now, you may want to uninstall the stack you had already installed to prevent the two instances possibly conflicting
20:55:25 <tomsmeding> sm: ah, thanks, I haven't used stack in years lol
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20:55:34 <tomsmeding> well, not actively
20:55:34 <andrewboltachev> I've just changed stack.yaml file btw, and resolver is: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/commercialhaskell/stackage-snapshots/master/lts/23/18.yaml
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20:55:50 <tomsmeding> https://www.stackage.org/lts-23.18
20:55:59 <monochrom> I was installing kics2 (a Curry compiler) and it required stack and it even chose a resolver that brought in GHC 9.4.5.
20:56:11 <tomsmeding> stackage lts-23.18 uses GHC 9.8.4, as you can see there
20:56:37 <andrewboltachev> aha... so is choosing 9.12.2 instead a good idea?
20:56:42 <tomsmeding> not necessarily!
20:57:07 <tomsmeding> in fact, the "recommended" version in ghcup is still 9.4.8, for various reasons that may or may not apply to you specifically. 9.8.2 is a rather popular version currently
20:57:28 <andrewboltachev> aha
20:57:32 <tomsmeding> well, the 9.8 series, in any case
20:57:59 <andrewboltachev> it's also telling me now: Could not find module ‘Data.Aeson.Bson’. etc
20:58:02 <tomsmeding> note that there is no stackage snapshot yet for 9.12, and the latest normal, supported snapshot is indeed for 9.8.4 (the one you chose: lts-23.18)
20:58:05 <andrewboltachev> for all the libs
20:58:21 <tomsmeding> so if you want to continue using stack, the "newest" normal, supported GHC version is indeed 9.8.4
20:58:39 <tomsmeding> @where paste
20:58:39 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
20:59:15 <andrewboltachev> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/61F42kYW like this
21:00:05 <andrewboltachev> ah, that might be a conflict exactly
21:00:16 <andrewboltachev> stack is: /home/andrey/.local/bin/stack
21:00:19 <haskellbridge> <sm> andrewboltachev for easiest success, you should pick a snapshot that has the GHC version closest to what that project was last built with
21:00:28 <tomsmeding> andrewboltachev: likely you're not in the right module; loading modules with `:l` loads them outside of the current package environment, so you're missing all your deps that way
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21:00:44 <tomsmeding> try `:m Main`, if Main is the module that has your `main` function
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21:01:18 <andrewboltachev> :m app.Main
21:01:29 <andrewboltachev> syntax: :module [+/-] [*]M1 ... [*]Mn
21:01:33 <tomsmeding> (IMO the decision to remove the in-scope module names from the ghci prompt and make it just 'ghci>' was very bad and must be reverted post-haste, it's incredibly confusing to someone not already very familiar with ghci's scoping logic)
21:01:40 <tomsmeding> andrewboltachev: without the 'app.'
21:01:58 <andrewboltachev> well, then: Could not find module ‘Main’.
21:01:59 <andrewboltachev> It is not a module in the current program, or in any known package.
21:02:07 <tomsmeding> could you post your *.cabal file?
21:03:07 <andrewboltachev> sure: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/lKXgZgpV
21:03:42 <tomsmeding> ah, likely `stack ghci` is default-selecting your _library_ instead of the executable as the component in scope
21:03:48 <andrewboltachev> "inline-js" and the like should go through
21:03:59 <tomsmeding> (the various libaries, executables, test-suites, etc. in a package are called "components" in the cabal lingo)
21:04:19 <tomsmeding> try `stack ghci matcher-exe` perhaps?
21:04:36 <tomsmeding> in ghci, only one component can be "in scope" at a time
21:04:47 <andrewboltachev> I've also had extra-deps here https://paste.tomsmeding.com/v3yZb7MV
21:04:59 <andrewboltachev> and wanted to overwrite this file
21:05:06 <andrewboltachev> which didn't work
21:05:08 <tomsmeding> though of course, if you're e.g. "in" the Main module in matcher-exe in ghci, and matcher-exe has dependencies (like 'matcher'), you can still import modules from 'matcher' -- you just can't see local definitions inside modules of 'matcher'
21:05:45 <tomsmeding> what do you mean with "overwrite this file"?
21:07:14 <andrewboltachev> I generated a fresh one in a separate folder and replaced it
21:07:37 <andrewboltachev> generated via "stack init" I mean... or what was the command
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21:13:47 <andrewboltachev> ok when I did get checkout and just compiled old version it works
21:14:02 <tomsmeding> Hecate: I see that the commit that changed ghci's default prompt from '%s> ' to 'ghci> ' was committed by you; what was the motivation for that change?
21:16:23 <andrewboltachev> I just wonder how hard is it to learn stack/cabal/other tools/differences between them, having I don't have very particular C/C++ programming experience or sth
21:16:37 <geekosaur> many people were requesting that the (often long) list of imported modules be turned off by default, iirc
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21:17:13 <tomsmeding> well then those people can just `:set prompt 'ghci> '` in their ~/.ghci, surely? :p
21:17:25 <geekosaur> one might think
21:17:35 <tomsmeding> it's the beginners that are caught by this because ghci works differently (regarding module scoping) than every other repl out there
21:18:08 <tomsmeding> (perhaps that's overstated -- I don't know if one of the lisps works this way, but python/node certainly don't)
21:18:11 <geekosaur> I mean, many of the people I know set it to `λ> `
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21:19:22 <andrewboltachev> Clojure's REPL is cool btw
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21:21:13 <andrewboltachev> In the future I want to see (even build) more visual tools. One example I had chance to work with is Pharo Smalltalk, where they have that IDE that "builds itself", i.e. you interact with objects including IDE's own windows/widgets/compiler etc
21:22:13 <geekosaur> ghcimonad 😛
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21:26:49 <geekosaur> btw there is already ghcitui, although it's not the "build your own" thing (yet?)
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21:27:53 <tomsmeding> I suspect that haskell isn't particularly suited to such an open-box approach because of the prevalence of immutable datastructures
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21:28:21 <monochrom> The Smalltalk people are about the only ones who care about visual tools. All other programming language communities are like "plain text files".
21:28:22 <tomsmeding> but this may be just my lack of imagination
21:28:48 <geekosaur> xmonad, kmonad, termonad…
21:29:28 <geekosaur> the "re-exec yourself" approach seems to work nicely, as long as you're on POSIX
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21:30:10 <geekosaur> (that said, I still can't decide if Microsoft not supporting some kind of `exec` was a bad move or a very wise one, given how hard it is to get fork/exec right)
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21:30:46 <andrewboltachev> monochrom: agree. And forgot to say that this Visual Smalltalk IDE didn't has stored all data in an "image" (like *.iso). So one can't access plain files from outside. And it's been very usual for it's git tool to gltich and forget all the changes made during the day...
21:31:04 <geekosaur> yep. that's very Smalltalk
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21:31:35 <geekosaur> and you build apps in those kinds of images and **** help you if some ancient thing in it that you forgot existed causes interference
21:31:36 <tomsmeding> do Smalltalk users make small talk about these issues?
21:31:50 <monochrom> haha
21:32:26 <andrewboltachev> that's the only useful thing to do I guess...
21:32:38 <monochrom> "can't do diff and/or version control on non-text" is a very powerful self-fulfilling prophecy.
21:33:43 <EvanR> it sounds close to a tautology
21:34:03 <EvanR> by literal definition of diff
21:34:06 <monochrom> Well presumably any language that has mixin or equivalent power has the same interference problem too. For example Julia.
21:34:07 <EvanR> the program
21:35:05 <monochrom> And Haskell with OverlappingOverlappableUndecidableIncoherentInstances
21:35:32 <geekosaur> most people don't seem to care, after all they recreated the same situation with docker 😛
21:36:01 <geekosaur> (granting that I have my own docker setup, but I keep it on a short leash)
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21:38:13 <geekosaur> also ruby (smalltalk-wannabe, naturally) has similar issues, yes
21:38:17 <andrewboltachev> I personally just failed to create Dockerfile for this matcher project (and maybe it's be easier to develop outside of Docker)
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21:38:49 <tomsmeding> at least with docker, the image is generated from a script that is itself plain text
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21:40:39 <andrewboltachev> yes. but I'd say everything has a learning curve
21:42:02 <tomsmeding> oh sure, I was replying to geekosaur
21:42:03 <andrewboltachev> my humble contribution to visual tools — [upcoming] visual lenses: https://main.andrewboltachev.site/toolbox/logicore1/c88ddce2-8c8c-48db-8c9e-08c4fd1a5ffd/24/
21:42:18 <andrewboltachev> tomsmeding: sorry
21:43:55 <andrewboltachev> where not humble version must be this: https://categoricaldata.net/
21:44:35 <andrewboltachev> (don't that Categorical data guys code Julia btw?)
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21:58:30 <EvanR> in lambda calculus: some models, some philosophy 1980 scott asks "are there such sets A* ⊆ A" (A* being the set of all finite sequences of elements from A).
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22:10:19 <EvanR> I don't know about proper subset but haskell has one which is isomorphic https://paste.tomsmeding.com/cJEnEOD7 haha
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22:12:18 <haskellbridge> <sm> there are modern smalltalks that are more declarative, eg saving code in git and rebuilding images from text descriptions
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