Logs on 2025-04-17 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:07:07 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I have just been listening to Tom's podcast appearance at https://haskell.foundation/podcast/60/ - extremely good! |
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| 03:12:34 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I learned about his strict-wrapper library. At https://hackage.haskell.org/package/strict-wrapper-0.0.1.0/docs/Data-Strict-Wrapper.html#g:4 , I wonder why both ! and Strict are needed ? typo or not ? |
| 03:14:42 | <geekosaur> | I don't think so? you need the bang to strictify up to the `Strict`, and then that does what amounts to `rnf` |
| 03:15:00 | <geekosaur> | but without the bang you have a thunk containing an `rnf`, which is kinda useless |
| 03:15:08 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> 👀 |
| 03:15:54 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> thanks |
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| 06:32:32 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> not sure what feedback i'd get on this, but do RTSes for other languages come with channels for memory sharing? |
| 06:32:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> is this overall a bad idea? |
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| 08:01:38 | <tomsmeding> | Liamzee: what is a "channel for memory sharing"? |
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| 08:04:56 | <tomsmeding> | sm: tangential, but the haddocks for that package are slightly broken: the source link for `pattern Strict` goes to `data Strict` in the class |
| 08:05:03 | <tomsmeding> | too much namespace confusion for haddock? |
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| 08:06:11 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> heh, too much for me anyway. I just squint and nod, yes, yes, all fine... |
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| 08:13:39 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> type families seem pretty complicated |
| 08:13:56 | <tomsmeding> | which ones? |
| 08:14:33 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> The general topic.. judging by |
| 08:14:34 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/joUkRcuOzMUxtIIyKOZKEFIO/v9EHd00ulCY (4 lines) |
| 08:15:12 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> but I see how it's used in strict-wrapper, that seems simple enough to use |
| 08:15:15 | <tomsmeding> | all the nitty-gritty details are complicated, sure |
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| 08:15:23 | <tomsmeding> | basic type families are not so complex |
| 08:15:49 | <tomsmeding> | the Strict family in strict-wrapper is a data family though, which is related but not quite the same |
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| 08:15:58 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> aiee |
| 08:16:08 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> good to know, I maybe misread |
| 08:16:47 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> right you are. Some of the error messages are type families, only |
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| 08:17:45 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I would really like an up to date accurate atlas of all of Haskell (or even just the language) |
| 08:18:06 | <tomsmeding> | including all the GHC extensions? |
| 08:18:27 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> seems like the continent of Advanced Type Features has grown pretty vast |
| 08:18:43 | <tomsmeding> | how about https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/ + https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/table.html ? |
| 08:18:58 | <tomsmeding> | it's sorted alphabetically, not by concept |
| 08:19:11 | <tomsmeding> | but I peruse this table fairly often |
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| 08:20:37 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> actually I remember seeing such a map, I wonder where |
| 08:22:29 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> cool: |
| 08:22:29 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/QzItmSQZhhgYvudmKiGWwlCk/Jj0hkMx6nzA (4 lines) |
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| 08:47:43 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: It looks like haddock just doesn't do `(t|v):` namespacing in hyperlinked source, probably because regular constructors don't have source links and the code is older than `PatternSynonyms`. Throw them a bug report? :) |
| 08:50:25 | <tomsmeding> | well spotted |
| 08:54:56 | <Leary> | Presumably it can also bug on `TypeOperators`. |
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| 08:59:11 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: yep, it indeed has the same anchor link for those too |
| 08:59:25 | <tomsmeding> | (defined a little module with `type family (*) a b` and `(*) :: ...` |
| 08:59:27 | <tomsmeding> | ) |
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| 09:00:24 | <bwe> | ski [exa]: switched to applicative notation in relabel', added tick, integrated it into relabel', switched tick call from bind to applicative notation. Is tick equivalent to modify'? |
| 09:00:37 | <bwe> | And how can I simplify tick? |
| 09:01:20 | <[exa]> | bwe: people are making a helper such as this: `modify :: (s -> s) -> State s ()` |
| 09:01:57 | <[exa]> | with that one, tick would be something like `modify (+1) >> get` |
| 09:02:17 | <[exa]> | (or simpler if you instead choose `modify :: (s->s) -> State s s` |
| 09:05:01 | <ski> | bwe : `tick' is `get <* modify (1 +)' |
| 09:05:51 | <ski> | `modify (1 +) >> get' would do pre-increment, but i basically implied post-increment |
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| 09:07:05 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/25971 |
| 09:07:48 | <ski> | it would be possible to rewrite `(\n -> Leaf (n, x))' as `Leaf . (,x)', if you add `,TupleSections' to the `LANGUAGE' pragma |
| 09:09:01 | <ski> | (also, relabel' still doesn't have the same type as relabel .. you can make a wrapper that calls `runState' or `evalState') |
| 09:10:45 | <[exa]> | ski: ah good point |
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| 09:12:07 | <ski> | oh, and `_ <- set ...' could just be `set ...', as you had it before |
| 09:12:38 | <ski> | (but you might prefer the `(<*)' combinator) |
| 09:14:05 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> tomsmeding: ability for different Haskell processes (and FFI processes) to communicate via memory shared by the OS and RTS |
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| 09:14:21 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> also, apparently Xiaohongshu just talked me into learning Classical Chinese |
| 09:14:38 | <tomsmeding> | is that a thing in haskell? |
| 09:15:29 | <tomsmeding> | I only know of this existing on a very low level with shm_open(3) in the POSIX API of the kernel, accessible from C |
| 09:15:31 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> 兄弟(Brother)，老师说(teacher says)，除非特别喜欢中国历史文化(unless you really like Chinese history and culture)，否则没必要学(then there's no need)。文言文信息密度太大了(The information density of classical Chinese is too high)，现在没人用了(no one uses it nowadays) |
| 09:15:49 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> He also talked me into taking another look at classy monad applications |
| 09:16:11 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> even though there's people who've reported it as being useless except for mocking |
| 09:16:34 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i.e, the implicit meaning of code depends on the context (monadic type) |
| 09:16:49 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> tomsmeding: It's not a thing in Haskell, tomsmeding |
| 09:16:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I'm just wondering if it should be |
| 09:17:10 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the advantage would be that the types would be retained |
| 09:17:22 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> SHMRef mytype or SHMChannel mytype |
| 09:18:01 | <[exa]> | Liamzee: did you hear about L4 microkernel btw? sounds very much like the general idea of control pages there |
| 09:18:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> nope! |
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| 09:19:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's great when you don't have a first-class concept of mutable variable and have to rely on tons of user-defined pointers to mutables with custom interfaces |
| 09:20:22 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> but exa, do we know whether or not shared memory provisions in the RTS are a bad idea? |
| 09:22:06 | <[exa]> | we don't until someone produces a spectacular success or spectacular failure |
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| 09:23:04 | <[exa]> | mutable stuff ain't bad, just needs better tools to tame the complexity back down |
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| 09:28:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> ehhh, i'd go mess around with https://hackage.haskell.org/package/shared-memory-0.2.0.1/docs/SharedMemory.html |
| 09:29:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> except that i'm still trying to figure out how to send an e-mail without relying on a mailserver |
| 09:29:32 | <[exa]> | spoiler: you can't |
| 09:31:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> so how do mailservers send mail? |
| 09:32:19 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> To send email you need to be a mailserver :P |
| 09:33:42 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it sounds like mailservers send mail by calling on a mailserver, which calls on more mailservers, resulting in a bottom |
| 09:33:58 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> which is the 100% correct way to do anything, as it is an inhabitant of any type :3 |
| 09:34:55 | <[exa]> | to become a mailserver you essentially have to as a mailserver. In Haskell that's got an easy fix :: (mailserver -> mailserver) -> mailserver. |
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| 09:35:00 | <[exa]> | *ask |
| 09:36:02 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> But how did the first mailserver become a mailserver? |
| 09:36:10 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> There was no mailserver |
| 09:36:50 | <[exa]> | it asked itself |
| 09:37:07 | <[exa]> | (this probably belongs to #-blah now :D ) |
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| 09:37:45 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> sorry, but I'm trying to mailbomb myself. Actually, seriously, I'm trying to send a registration e-mail without relying on an existing SMTP server. |
| 09:37:52 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Offtopic discussion in the haskell irc channel???? We would never |
| 09:38:05 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> accidentally mailbombing myself is an acceptable bug |
| 09:38:39 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> You can send email, but i doubt anyone will accept it |
| 09:38:42 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> You need to talk smtp |
| 09:39:03 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/smtp-mail-0.5.0.0/docs/Network-Mail-SMTP.html |
| 09:39:18 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> user error (Unexpected reply to: MAIL "registration@recardo.community", Expected reply code: 250, Got this instead: 530 "5.7.0 Authentication Required. For more information, go to\r\n5.7.0 https://support.google.com/mail/?p=WantAuthError 41be03b00d2f7-b0b220ad44dsm2648980a12.7 - gsmtp\r\n") |
| 09:40:21 | <[exa]> | Liamzee: SMTP servers won't allow you to just send a mail to them, either you're credible and target a local deliverable destination, or you supply user credentials (which they can ban if you start spamming) |
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| 09:41:17 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i mean, i could always just set up my own SMTP server |
| 09:41:23 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> then send there, but that seems wasteful |
| 09:41:24 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> There is a book, https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mwlucas/run-your-own-mail-server |
| 09:41:33 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I have it, its pretty good |
| 09:45:43 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> gah, so this error message is just indicating that i don't have the configuration set up on my DNS to convince Google that I'm running a legit mailserver on my address |
| 09:47:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://blog.codinghorror.com/so-youd-like-to-send-some-email-through-code/ |
| 09:47:24 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> hum, okay |
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| 09:48:10 | <[exa]> | Liamzee: as I said, you need to auth there (after that the gsmtp is generally quite liberal in what it sends) |
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| 11:04:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> bleh, i'd rather spend 1-2 days trying to figure out how to configure a mailserver on my server |
| 11:04:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> then cut it out |
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| 11:25:08 | <[exa]> | Liamzee: like, installing exim and getting the domain running isn't such an issue |
| 11:25:23 | <[exa]> | it just takes a bit of administration time that people don't expect |
| 11:25:33 | <[exa]> | e.g. when you get the first actual heap of spam going |
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| 11:42:21 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> doesn't really matter, i just want to mailbomb myself |
| 11:42:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> and also, is that where all the spam comes from? People setting up random mailservers on VPS and other cloud services, spamming people, then taking the connection offline |
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| 12:06:15 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> is there anyway to prevent haddock from expanding a module's content and always hyperlinking? |
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| 12:09:20 | <tomsmeding> | eldritchcookie: what do you mean exactly? Does one of these happen to do what you want? https://haskell-haddock.readthedocs.io/latest/markup.html#module-attributes |
| 12:09:24 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> managing a mail server is not a 1-2 days task I think :/ |
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| 12:11:52 | <[exa]> | Liamzee: spam comes from EVERYWHERE |
| 12:12:16 | <[exa]> | back in 2010s when I was with ISPs a surprising amount was from people's infected computers |
| 12:12:34 | <[exa]> | botnets ain't small |
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| 12:14:41 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> tomsmeding: none do, i am making my own prelude and i want it to be compatible with -xNoListTuplePuns so i export all 200 tuples data families,i want to hide those 200 entities even though they are exported because logically it is only "all tuples GHC permits" we don't need to know that CTuple45, Tuple37# and Tuple55 are exported. |
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| 12:16:48 | <tomsmeding> | eldritchcookie: put them in a separate module and re-export that module in its entirety? That will produce a `module Tuples.Stuff` entry in the haddocks, I think |
| 12:17:00 | <tomsmeding> | potentially that Tuples.Stuff module also needs to be public for it not to be expanded in-place |
| 12:17:31 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> yes but for some reason it doesn't work even though i made the module public |
| 12:19:23 | <tomsmeding> | you're talking about "data family instances"; the instances themselves don't get separate haddock entries |
| 12:19:41 | <tomsmeding> | you'd need to move the entire data family into the module |
| 12:19:52 | <tomsmeding> | instances are always shown under data types |
| 12:22:32 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> i am exporting the (C)Tuple1-64# type/data families also i am unsure if they actually are data/type familes CTuples are documented as classes |
| 12:23:07 | <tomsmeding> | which CTuple are you talking about? |
| 12:23:45 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> the one exported from ghc-experimental |
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| 12:24:11 | <tomsmeding> | ah I see, they're separate classes |
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| 12:24:40 | <tomsmeding> | the reason this is happening is then probably that you're not defining these things, so haddock has no "home module" to direct users to |
| 12:25:26 | <tomsmeding> | potentially if you re-export the entire Data.Tuple.Experimental module as-is, without listing the members individually, haddock will generate a module link? |
| 12:25:28 | <tomsmeding> | not sure |
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| 12:43:43 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> huh aparently even if i import Data.Tuple.Experimental and export the whole module with both the import and export only mentioning the module name it still expands all the tuples |
| 12:43:57 | <tomsmeding> | I see |
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| 13:43:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> huh |
| 13:43:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> also, friend explained this to me |
| 13:43:56 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/static_pointers.html |
| 13:44:59 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> [exa] |
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| 13:47:02 | <EvanR> | cloud haskell |
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| 13:52:03 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> regarding the idea of having provisions built in runtime for shared memory |
| 13:52:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm trying to figure out how you could pass this through child processes in a microservices architecture |
| 13:52:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://blog.ocharles.org.uk/guest-posts/2014-12-23-static-pointers.html |
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| 13:58:19 | <ski> | mm, the `StaticPtr' is a kind of "necessary"-type modality, i suppose. now i'm wondering whether one can do `preserve :: (StaticPtr a -> b) -> StaticPtre a -> StaticPtr b' |
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| 14:31:59 | <hellwolf> | I saw "fromSource :: Source #-> Thingy" in the wild, is it a real syntax? |
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| 14:33:00 | <dminuoso> | hellwolf: I dont see why not. |
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| 14:35:49 | <dminuoso> | % newtype (#->) a b = A a |
| 14:35:49 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 14:36:25 | <hellwolf> | aha, right, i thought that was special arrows related to unboxed, or somethign to do with magichash |
| 14:36:59 | <dminuoso> | hellwolf: The hash is just not allowed in postfix position without an extension, and only then tends to indicate unboxed things. |
| 14:37:09 | <dminuoso> | In other positions it is fair game. |
| 14:37:43 | <hellwolf> | i see, postfix that is. |
| 14:38:25 | <dminuoso> | I dont think I have seen it used in postfix position on an operator type, however. |
| 14:38:31 | <dminuoso> | i.e. something like -># |
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| 14:39:02 | <dminuoso> | % newtype a #-> b = A (a -> b) |
| 14:39:02 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 14:39:05 | <dminuoso> | % newtype a -># b = A (a -> b) |
| 14:39:05 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 14:39:11 | <dminuoso> | % :set -XNoMagicHash |
| 14:39:11 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 14:39:17 | <dminuoso> | % newtype a -># b = A (a -> b) |
| 14:39:17 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 14:39:20 | <dminuoso> | Interesting. |
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| 14:40:20 | <hellwolf> | can you rebind all syntax so that it will look like python |
| 14:41:01 | <dminuoso> | That sounds like a moderately interesting excercise. |
| 14:41:12 | <dminuoso> | We cannot rebind most syntax, however. |
| 14:41:48 | <dminuoso> | And we cannot conjure syntax as freely as agda can with mixfix for example. |
| 14:41:51 | <EvanR> | idris lets you gonzo define new syntax |
| 14:42:08 | <EvanR> | make idris python again |
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| 14:42:17 | <dminuoso> | MIPA. |
| 14:43:00 | <hellwolf> | mixfix is cool, but the extra mandatory whitespaces is the tradeoff. |
| 14:43:11 | <EvanR> | probably for the best |
| 14:43:25 | <dminuoso> | However... |
| 14:43:26 | <hellwolf> | your.record or my.lens |
| 14:43:38 | <dminuoso> | In a custom monad you can probably imitate python very closely. |
| 14:43:59 | <hellwolf> | "def" can be top-level splice |
| 14:44:32 | <EvanR> | period to approximate function composition is kind of mistake |
| 14:44:36 | <dminuoso> | Well... if you unpack that can of worms, you can of course just write a python-to-haskell compiler, and just put it all in a big ... |
| 14:44:40 | <dminuoso> | qq. |
| 14:44:59 | <dminuoso> | Lets you write python in haskell. |
| 14:45:02 | <EvanR> | since it is incompatible with "dot syntax" |
| 14:45:26 | <EvanR> | inline python |
| 14:45:32 | <dminuoso> | Then all you need is just bidirectional binding (.NET seems reasonable, we just need IronHaskell) |
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| 14:45:59 | <dminuoso> | hellwolf: What were your plans again for the next 5 years? Fancy a PhD? |
| 14:46:05 | <hellwolf> | you are welcome to use the proper ∘ for composition. |
| 14:46:48 | <hellwolf> | dminuoso: I am considering it. But then again, I love more making money and build tools using theory. |
| 14:46:50 | <EvanR> | nod |
| 14:47:20 | <EvanR> | make programs not build systems! |
| 14:47:24 | <EvanR> | make games not engines |
| 14:47:32 | <dminuoso> | So you want to make money while building tools using theory, and let me guess you want a plethora of job offers hitting your inbox every day? |
| 14:48:15 | <hellwolf> | not sure, clipping salary seems too slow of a way to make money |
| 14:49:00 | <dminuoso> | My haskell prime time has come to past, I think. :( |
| 14:50:16 | <hellwolf> | So long this IRC channel remains the safe harbor from vibe coders. |
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| 15:04:28 | <lortabac> | FWIW I do vibe coding from time to time, mostly to understand what the possibilities are |
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| 15:11:48 | <EvanR> | hellwolf, I was reading this as "safe harbor for vibe coders" for the last 20 minutes |
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| 15:13:25 | <hellwolf> | hm? |
| 15:13:45 | <EvanR> | exactly |
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| 15:37:35 | <bwe> | ski, [exa]: implemented `modify`, changed `tick` to use `modify`, made `relabel'` output equivalent to `relabel`. |
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| 15:41:09 | <__monty__> | dminuoso: Yes, do you need my address or how do we set this up? |
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| 15:42:07 | <ski> | looks nice, bwe |
| 15:42:15 | <ski> | i often write like |
| 15:42:23 | <ski> | (`evalState` 0) |
| 15:42:26 | <ski> | in place of |
| 15:42:30 | <ski> | flip evalState 0 |
| 15:42:35 | <bwe> | I agree. |
| 15:44:49 | <bwe> | ski: how could I include the go definition under `relabel`? I mean putting it under where doesn't feel the best way, also there type signatures are rather non-standard. |
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| 15:49:36 | <ski> | "putting it under where doesn't feel the best way" -- why ? |
| 15:49:54 | <ski> | you can put the type signature under `where' too, if you like |
| 15:49:57 | <[exa]> | bwe: normally after "where" keyword |
| 15:49:59 | <[exa]> | yes ^ |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-04-17.