Logs on 2025-04-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 06:40:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> haskell is not? you run into any programming community, and you'll meet people who have some cursory knowledge of haskell |
| 06:40:39 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the question is more whether they're using Haskell to produce useful software |
| 06:41:09 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> anyways, do you know if block arguments will ever finally get stuffed into a GHC edition? |
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| 07:00:44 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> have you searched the discourse first? you will find the thread about the blockarguments from two years agom |
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| 14:35:02 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> hellwolf: atravers linked me to the old arguments about abusing do notation |
| 14:35:13 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> blockarguments is a small quality of life thing, i think |
| 14:35:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> *do bulletting |
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| 15:48:16 | <monochrom> | I decided to enter into discourse's search box "BlockArgument arguments" >:) |
| 15:49:31 | <monochrom> | Huh "string of text" as an opposition. I thought people loved English. |
| 15:50:15 | <hellwolf> | I mean, I use it. But I acknowledge it is quite opinionated. Enabling them in your own project seems a good default really. |
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| 15:52:46 | <monochrom> | The "string of text" argument is a strawman argument IMO. The example used was "doSomething otherVal a do theRest with b". Frankly my solution is to break line right after do. Then the "string of text" ends right there. (It's also diff-friendly anyway, I thought people loved diff-friendly layouts.) |
| 15:53:40 | <monochrom> | Oh well the ship has sailed. Didn't notice that post and rebut. |
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| 16:01:35 | monochrom | starts the movement Grown Up Haskell |
| 16:04:05 | <mauke> | Senile Haskell |
| 16:04:13 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 16:04:24 | <JuanDaugherty> | watchi it |
| 16:04:41 | <hc> | Random question: Can do haskell hot code swapping like erlang can, somehow? |
| 16:04:47 | <hc> | s/do haskell/haskell do/ |
| 16:04:58 | <JuanDaugherty> | prolly not |
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| 16:05:54 | <JuanDaugherty> | erlang was originally meant to operate on telecomm switches |
| 16:06:13 | <hc> | I know, I've even seen the erlang video with Joe Armstrong calling his colleagues =) |
| 16:06:15 | <JuanDaugherty> | so that would be a needed feature operationally |
| 16:06:43 | <JuanDaugherty> | hs is super static |
| 16:07:14 | <JuanDaugherty> | it dont want no dynamic/runtime nuthin |
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| 16:07:55 | <JuanDaugherty> | which would be viewed as a ritual pollution or loss of caste |
| 16:08:02 | <hc> | Hmm |
| 16:08:29 | <hc> | Okay, then erlang does have an advantage over haskell there... |
| 16:08:40 | <hc> | But there's even a haskell library to emulate erlang's actor model |
| 16:08:49 | <hc> | s/actor/actuator/ |
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| 16:09:17 | <hc> | Oh no it's really called actor model |
| 16:09:24 | <c_wraith> | technically, Haskell can do code hot swapping. But what it can't do is transfer data in types defined in the old code to types defined in the new code |
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| 16:10:35 | <c_wraith> | If you want to transfer data between versions of the code, it needs to be defined someplace that isn't reloaded |
| 16:11:12 | <monochrom> | There was a plugin library for loading new code hot. (It works by using GHC as a library, so your program includes a large chunk of GHC so you can do what GHCi does: :load). But interest in it or any replacement died. |
| 16:11:16 | <c_wraith> | Given the differences in idiomatic Haskell vs idiomatic Erlang regarding types, this makes a big practical difference |
| 16:12:18 | <monochrom> | But yes there is the fundamental problem that if you do type erasure and hot load, then your type unsafety is even worse than dynamic typing. |
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| 16:12:34 | <c_wraith> | There is also no good support for defined semantics of slightly dirty things like mutable top-level references. |
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| 16:14:34 | <monochrom> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/plugins |
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| 16:21:35 | <EvanR> | once again a database saves the day |
| 16:22:00 | <EvanR> | stash your stuff in a database, migrate old version to new version |
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| 16:24:16 | <EvanR> | hc, cloud haskell |
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| 16:34:09 | <danz12132> | there is a brilliant relational haskell project i always forget because of its name ... project 26 or something |
| 16:35:27 | <danz12132> | oh this is it again https://github.com/agentm/project-m36 |
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| 16:38:18 | <danz12132> | readme does not showcase the semantics much https://github.com/agentm/project-m36/blob/master/docs/tutd_cheatsheet.markdown#relational-expressions |
| 16:38:32 | <EvanR> | the asciicast there is mildly inspiring |
| 16:40:30 | <danz12132> | had not noticed. Nice |
| 16:43:07 | <hellwolf> | I had never heard of it, but it sounds grand. |
| 16:43:26 | <EvanR> | what does m36 refer to if anything |
| 16:45:34 | danz12132 | unsure |
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| 16:52:18 | <hellwolf> | here is the answer: https://github.com/agentm/project-m36/issues/292 |
| 16:53:20 | <EvanR> | the name was chosen in order to be easy to find, but hard to remember |
| 16:53:27 | <EvanR> | lol |
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| 16:55:13 | <hellwolf> | this is why I love Haskell sometimes. Avoid $ success at all cost :) Things like this exists probably also because of that motto. |
| 16:56:04 | <hellwolf> | too many "practical" tool out there. having one more doesn't seem enrich our life marginally that much any more. |
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| 17:06:24 | <monochrom> | Haha unique name that doesn't mean anything. |
| 17:07:18 | <monochrom> | You know, the commercial world does that all the time too. |
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| 17:10:42 | <hc> | EvanR: right -- cloud haskell :) |
| 17:10:43 | monochrom | refuses to say "real world". What's so real about a capitalist construct? |
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| 17:42:30 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> inb4 haskellers start naming projects and libraries after cryptographically secure hashes |
| 17:43:00 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> and when someone finally gets the computing power / technical skills needed to break the hash, it turns out the original was... hmmm, citizen kane |
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| 17:45:50 | <geekosaur> | cabal does that for you these days 😛 |
| 17:46:00 | <monochrom> | I prefer to start with a randomly chosen original and hash with a randomly chosen hash function to generate a random hash. Then one can inverse-hash it to any original >:) |
| 17:46:51 | <monochrom> | inb4 "The Bible Code" 2.0 |
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| 17:47:47 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> honestly a lot of projects names, even in the mainstream community, seem to be generated by diceware sometimes |
| 17:49:03 | <geekosaur> | have you looked at drug names over the past 15 or so years? 😈 |
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| 17:49:52 | <monochrom> | Interesting, didn't know someone made a website for that (Diceware). I wrote my own soon after reading that xkcd. :) |
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| 17:50:16 | <monochrom> | In retrospect, of course there is a website for everything. |
| 17:50:45 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://github.com/liamzee/Dicewarist |
| 17:51:05 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> baby's first program |
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| 17:52:02 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i should redo it in optparse applicative and cassava |
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| 17:52:33 | <monochrom> | Oh yeah drug names are the first that came to mind when I brought up names from the commercial world. And even much more than 15 years. Asprin? Tylenol? Viagra? |
| 17:53:27 | <geekosaur> | aspirin has a rationale actually |
| 17:53:55 | <geekosaur> | "aspire-in" where the "-in" suffix is from well known peptides like insulin |
| 17:54:17 | <geekosaur> | (they didn't do so well with the follow-on, though) |
| 17:54:18 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> acetyl spiraea - in |
| 17:56:33 | <monochrom> | May I say that "Diceware" is also a poorly chosen name? My first guess was "is that like something in the kitchen"? |
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| 18:01:26 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it does work insofar as it references its generator, and ware is commonplace in the crypto / security communities (ransomware, for instance) |
| 18:02:22 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> hmmm, apparently you can get a decent risc-v single-board computer for only $5 (pre-tariffs) |
| 18:02:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> but it doesn't really matter whether it's risc-v or arm |
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| 18:04:24 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the housing for a device probably will be less than $5, not sure how much a cheap LED would cost, currently, an electronic passbook (presumably with random password generation) costs around $55 |
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| 18:04:48 | <monochrom> | I saw something like the xkcd and Diceware a long time before, and probably better in principle. The school sysadmin generated random initial passwords of the form of two instances of consonant-vowel-consonant-vowel-consonant. So basically something pronounciable but not required to be real words. (The context was also: I requested a ton of guest accounts for a programming contest. The stake was pretty low.) |
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| 18:06:37 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the problem with diceware is, to reach 128 bits of entropy, you need 8 words, which, i guess you folks have better memories |
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| 18:06:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> then generating the passwords manually is painful |
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| 18:08:26 | <monochrom> | I don't have better memories. I resort to storing a ton of passwords in a file, but I keep it encrypted with one single long password, and I just remember that one. Or rather, finger-muscle-memory really. |
| 18:08:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the alternative is 20 random characters and letters, of course |
| 18:09:07 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> but iirc 128 bits was apparently a standard at microsoft a decade ago |
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| 18:09:42 | <monochrom> | Also a lot of places. |
| 18:09:45 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> 20 years ago, overheard password, apparently less than 24 bits for an ibank password |
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| 18:13:01 | <monochrom> | Truly random letters are extremely hard to type in. I know because my friends tried. They had a Netflix account with a random-letter password, and of course normally one benefits from a password manager that enters it for you. One day we went to an AirBnB house and tried to log in on that TV manually. Immediately we were like we regretted secure passwords, it's so hard to enter. |
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| 18:59:25 | <geekosaur> | I have two secure passwords memorized, the rest my password manager handles. (Both of those two, naturally, are password managers or have password manager functionality) |
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| 19:08:37 | <EvanR> | there's so many password managers I need a password manager manager |
| 19:09:01 | <monochrom> | hierarchical password managers like hierarchical epoll instances >:) |
| 19:09:48 | <EvanR> | having multiple password managers is key to reduce the damage of having one of them compromised |
| 19:10:17 | <EvanR> | triple redundancy |
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| 19:18:45 | <geekosaur> | in my case it's just being too lazy to sit down and weed through a couple thousand passwords spread over both, remove the extinct ones (lots of accounts/passwords from the 2000s are dead now, either because the site went away or they changed authentication systems), and duplicate or move the remainder |
| 19:19:22 | <geekosaur> | also I keep finding the occasional site which either doesn't let you use a password manager at all without copy-paste or only works with one of them |
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| 19:29:36 | <EvanR> | in the pattern p1 | p2 | p3, one matching implementation goes like... save input state, try running p1. If it succeeds fine, else restore state and try p2, etc. Which might mean saving any amount of data from the stream |
| 19:29:58 | <EvanR> | how stupid is this alternative: |
| 19:30:36 | <EvanR> | run p1 p2 and p3 until all of them succeed or fail or use 1 character of input. Then discard the character and repeat |
| 19:31:16 | <geekosaur> | now you're saving potentially any amount of continuations |
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| 19:32:31 | <EvanR> | only at most 3 at a time? |
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| 19:34:04 | <EvanR> | ok p1 p2 or p3 might contain | patterns |
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| 19:37:48 | <EvanR> | the situation where a lot of parallel patterns start building up would be when there is heavy ambiguity with long prefixes that match most of the patterns |
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| 19:45:23 | <EvanR> | if they would fail soon does that automatically make the classic implementation not use much backtracking |
| 19:48:16 | <EvanR> | in the pattern p* one implementation goes like... save input state, try running p. If it succeeds, discard the save and repeat. Else restore state and succeed. I wonder if there is a similar parallel alternative for p* |
| 19:48:21 | <c_wraith> | exploring each alternative in parallel is what ReadP does |
| 19:49:03 | <c_wraith> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.21.0.0/docs/Text-ParserCombinators-ReadP.html |
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| 19:49:32 | <EvanR> | nice |
| 19:49:49 | <c_wraith> | It can potentially use exponential space, as you point out |
| 19:50:31 | <c_wraith> | it's just a different set of tradeoffs, and a different set of requirements for how you write the parser. |
| 19:51:21 | <c_wraith> | But hey. No backtracking! |
| 19:51:39 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 19:53:02 | <EvanR> | ReadP, the P stands for parallel? |
| 19:54:23 | <c_wraith> | I have no idea. |
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| 19:56:10 | <c_wraith> | having used ReadP for AoC, I like it as long as I don't need to extract useful parse errors. |
| 19:56:49 | <c_wraith> | But how you write parsers is different enough that you can't do like the trifecta thing of "first run the fast parser, and if it fails run the parser that generates good error messages" |
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| 19:57:16 | <c_wraith> | That really only works if you can share parsing semantics across implementations |
| 19:57:50 | <EvanR> | ReadS -- read serial |
| 19:57:53 | <EvanR> | ReadP -- read parallel |
| 19:58:10 | <c_wraith> | ReadP gives you distributive semantics between Alternative and Applicative, but parsec-likes don't. |
| 19:58:53 | <c_wraith> | Which is a pretty fundamentally important distinction when writing parsers in practice. |
| 19:59:14 | <EvanR> | 🤔 |
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| 23:31:12 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> sort of makes you wonder how Verse's parser combinators are designed |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-04-19.