Logs on 2025-04-22 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:05 | <EvanR> | also |
| 00:00:15 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 00:00:27 | <EvanR> | "knowing" what this 27-beaver number is is funny |
| 00:00:47 | <EvanR> | would it be like something with scientific notation, or something that defies notation because it's so big |
| 00:01:33 | <EvanR> | in which case I'm not sure what knowing entails |
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| 00:04:43 | <EvanR> | which leads me to question if you can "know" what the value 2834528348238485234593452341237645 is |
| 00:05:05 | <EvanR> | maybe inventing a new annoying form of ultrafinitism |
| 00:05:51 | <TMA> | S(6) > 10 ^^ 15 (^^ is tetration) |
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| 00:26:46 | <monochrom> | Huh, I disagree. In whose theory there is no difference? Because in my theory, there is already a difference, I try very hard to have/use honest theories. |
| 00:27:26 | <monochrom> | Because if it is your theory that says there is no difference, then the problem is with you, not with the idea of having theories. |
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| 00:30:34 | <monochrom> | But yes the running time of that 27-state machine should tell you quite something about the answer to goldbach's conjecture. I don't know the machine itself so I don't know what it will tell you. |
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| 00:44:51 | <EvanR> | "the" machine with 27-states is unrelated, just that it halts is the important part, and that nothing runs longer without running forever |
| 00:45:43 | <EvanR> | actually there was at least two machines with that number of states discussed |
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| 00:49:27 | <EvanR> | the goldbach one may not halt ("probably not" according to heuristics) |
| 00:49:51 | <monochrom> | Ah OK so is this the plan? Race the/a Goldbach machine (it has 27 states) against BB(27). We gain information from which one finishes first. |
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| 00:50:35 | <monochrom> | May be merely 1 bit for all that trouble. :) |
| 00:50:57 | <EvanR> | a pretty valuable bit though, how much prize money |
| 00:51:56 | <monochrom> | grad students are much cheaper and faster >:) |
| 00:52:29 | <EvanR> | ok like a million dollars |
| 00:52:37 | <monochrom> | (then trying to run BB(27)) |
| 00:52:47 | <monochrom> | ( s/then/than/ ) |
| 00:54:02 | <EvanR> | I see that your plan is different from anything discussed above |
| 00:54:22 | <EvanR> | I was like what if you know, you're like, race two machines |
| 00:54:32 | <EvanR> | much more dramatic |
| 00:54:38 | <monochrom> | heh |
| 00:55:15 | <EvanR> | one involved the number BB(27) and the other involves a machine with that runtime |
| 00:55:22 | <monochrom> | If you know the running time of BB(27), then you no longer have to race, you run only the Goldbach machine and you know how long to wait. |
| 00:56:13 | <monochrom> | Alternatively maybe "BB(27)" refers to that running time. OK you know how to correct my plan. |
| 00:56:30 | <EvanR> | 27 isn't that many states |
| 00:56:52 | <EvanR> | but I'm guessing we don't know the machine |
| 00:57:06 | <EvanR> | a machine |
| 00:57:15 | <EvanR> | a busy beaver |
| 00:57:40 | <monochrom> | Yeah I believe we only know up to 6. |
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| 01:22:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> so, should i finish figuring out how to set up login on my server, or should I play with Miso to set up a Zhuangzi.io host, using the Burt Watson translation? |
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| 01:23:28 | <EvanR> | who |
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| 01:25:59 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> some dead philosopher, fond of jokes, paradox, and contradiction |
| 01:26:14 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> was recently surprised the only free online repo is on ctext.org, using an ancient translation |
| 01:26:35 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> Zhuangzi: Was I a butterfly dreaming that I am Zhuang Zhou, or am I Zhang Zhou dreaming that I am a butterfly? |
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| 01:29:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's more about learning miso, in a low-risk project |
| 01:29:45 | <EvanR> | 庄子 |
| 01:30:44 | <EvanR> | or 莊子 |
| 01:31:47 | <EvanR> | how about a dose of "before covid" times https://ro-che.info/ccc/9 |
| 01:35:58 | <monochrom> | I don't understand why setting up login requires a translation of a Chinese philosophy text. |
| 01:36:30 | <monochrom> | Unless you just mean "how do I make the server allow a book-length password" |
| 01:37:21 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> by setting up login, i mean having a page and sql backend that can allow user accounts to log in |
| 01:37:58 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i only have it set up so far that user accounts can be created, an activation e-mail can be sent, and that e-mail contains a link to a key which is checked against a table to turn the account to "activated" |
| 01:38:53 | <monochrom> | There is actually a Japanese manga that has scene coming close to that. The password requires a pair of twins synchronously read alout a few verses from Ecclesiastes in the Bible. |
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| 01:43:00 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm still shocked the chinese haven't gone to diceware with randomly generated tang-dynasties poetry operating as passwords |
| 01:43:58 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> 41 bits of entropy per line? |
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| 01:44:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the problem is, you'd need to learn cangjie or wubi or some other code-based character input method to actually be able to input such a password efficiently |
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| 01:56:30 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> apparently there have been some papers on the entropy of crlassical chinese poetry, it's often memorable; estimates are like 30-35 bits |
| 01:57:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> per line, so 4 line poem would translate to 128 bit, 8 line 256 bit, but you'd have to understand systems of character input that aren't based on phonetics |
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| 02:01:43 | <EvanR> | how bits to designate which chinese poem + where to start |
| 02:01:47 | <EvanR> | how many |
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| 02:06:18 | <EvanR> | 16 bits could index into 65k poems + a few bits for the starting position |
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| 02:10:42 | <monochrom> | Well, both start and length. Still, barely more than 16 bits. |
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| 02:13:18 | <EvanR> | if I said, you'll never guess my password. It's classic rock lyrics |
| 02:13:23 | <EvanR> | I'd be dumb |
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| 02:18:12 | <monochrom> | The real number of bits is, if you think about it, how much the attacker knows about your choice space. People who think well-known literature is secure are thinking that the attacker figures only random sentences of similar length. To some extent it is true, but also to some extent it's just another securty-by-obscurity. |
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| 02:19:01 | <monochrom> | You are busted as soon as an attacker figures out you're just choosing from well-known literature. That space is so much smaller. |
| 02:20:05 | <EvanR> | can you implement my preferred online security |
| 02:20:20 | <EvanR> | if you get the password wrong 3 times, it deletes your entire account |
| 02:20:50 | <EvanR> | then you also don't have to implement "offboarding" or privacy protection supeona stuff |
| 02:21:11 | <monochrom> | I'm trying to think of a cute name for that. :) |
| 02:21:25 | <EvanR> | and I would use this feature on at least 10 websites immediately |
| 02:21:56 | <monochrom> | security-by-oblivion :) |
| 02:23:42 | <monochrom> | I'm going to make up a word to increase rhyming. security-by-oblitery |
| 02:26:33 | <monochrom> | You will get your accounts deleting in no time. |
| 02:26:39 | <monochrom> | s/deleting/deleted/ |
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| 02:27:44 | <monochrom> | I instead would accept just locking my account waiting for me to take action instead. which most of the industry agrees. |
| 02:28:47 | <monochrom> | Over the past 10 years I actually got my credit card locked twice, each time for what the bank's ANN considered an unusal transaction. |
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| 02:29:36 | <monochrom> | (Phoned up the bank and/or show ID at bank in person, and confirm the transactions, to unlock) |
| 02:30:18 | <geekosaur> | huh. mine just declines the transaction and asks me for confirmation, after which I have to tell the vendor to retry it |
| 02:30:43 | <monochrom> | Yeah mine was locked, i.e., no further transactions, even unrelated. |
| 02:31:33 | <monochrom> | I be damned if they completely cancelled the credit card account altogather. Unless, of course, it also means my whole month's debt is also forgiven. >:) |
| 02:33:38 | <monochrom> | (One time it was boxing week so yeah would be accepting if my boxing week shopping up to that point were free haha.) |
| 02:33:49 | <monochrom> | s/accepting/acceptable/ |
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| 05:51:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> monochrom: I mean randomly generated poetry |
| 05:51:59 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's been done stateside |
| 05:52:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://magazine.viterbi.usc.edu/fall-2015/whats-next/password-poetry/ |
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| 05:52:59 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it just comes to mind cuz |
| 05:53:21 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://bendolnick.substack.com/p/cixin-liu-cloud-of-poems |
| 05:54:12 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> "earth is conquered by dinosaurs. Then dinosaurs meet even more advanced species, true aliens this time, who take an interest in human poetry and decide to brute force attack the problem of poetry and use the solar system as a storage medium for their generated poems" |
| 05:54:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> surprisingly, i see a lot of diceware, but not a lot of poetryware, simply because the latter requires NLP chops to generate memorable poems |
| 05:55:54 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://slate.com/technology/2017/07/what-happens-when-an-a-i-program-tries-to-write-poetry.html |
| 05:55:57 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> this is better coverage |
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| 06:30:00 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> Is Haskell poetry? |
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| 06:42:48 | <Axman6> | sometimes, yes |
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| 06:44:03 | <Axman6> | @quote osteele |
| 06:44:04 | <lambdabot> | osteele says: Reading Haskell is like reading poetry and writing Haskell is like writing poetry. As opposed to Python and Ruby, which are more prosaic, and Enterprise Java, which is more like a tax |
| 06:44:04 | <lambdabot> | form. |
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| 06:47:08 | <Axman6> | @quote cryomorphobalonical |
| 06:47:08 | <lambdabot> | geheimdienst says: We employ a simple implementation of cryomorphobalonical panfunctors as introduced by Axman6 |
| 06:47:22 | <Axman6> | I have no recollection of this happening, but I will happily take credit |
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| 07:23:06 | Guest55 | is now known as potyymouth |
| 07:24:42 | <potyymouth> | Hi |
| 07:25:23 | <potyymouth> | Is real world Haskell still a good intro text |
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| 07:30:24 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> @potyymouth It's a bit outdated, but the beginning especially is basic concepts which are timeless. But the parts about setting it up and some libraries are outdated |
| 07:30:35 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> https://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/installing-ghc-and-haskell-libraries.html - windows xp screenshots, lol |
| 07:34:14 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Ah fuck, they left |
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| 07:44:49 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's probably going to be disturbing the number of people who use type signatures as passwords |
| 07:45:41 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> How many Haskell engineers it takes to change a lightbulb? |
| 07:45:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> foo :: (MonadReader m, MonadRandom m) => m a -> (Int, Int) -> m () |
| 07:47:39 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> normalized to without spaces? sounds an interesting idea |
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| 07:48:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> entropy's too low, i guess, needs more type spaghetti |
| 07:49:00 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> also, question: what's the concrete representation of newtype Foo = MkFoo Foo? |
| 07:49:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> a thunk of Foo? |
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| 08:53:11 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> also, a bit bored |
| 08:53:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> how would you define a type such that it'd represent impure values that upon evaluation execute a side effect? |
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| 08:54:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> newtype Impure a = Impure (a, IORef (IO ())) |
| 08:54:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> abstract datatype |
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| 08:58:13 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> newImpure a action = Impure $ let effect = unsafePerformIO $ newIORef (action >> pure ()) in seq (unsafePerformIO $ unsafePerformIO $ readIORef effect) $ (a, effect) |
| 08:58:35 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> still wouldn't work because you'd want to be able to modify the IORef without triggering the value |
| 08:58:36 | <tomsmeding> | Liamzee: can also do `newtype Impure a = Impure (IORef (IO a))` |
| 08:58:45 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> erm, triggering the side effect |
| 08:58:51 | <tomsmeding> | replace the IO a action with `pure x` after evaluation |
| 08:59:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> that works better! |
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| 08:59:45 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> triggering the effect |
| 08:59:52 | <tomsmeding> | if you want asynchronous execution: `type Impure = MVar` |
| 09:00:14 | <tomsmeding> | initialise it by forkIO-ing a thread that, upon completion, `putMVar`s the result |
| 09:00:35 | <tomsmeding> | getting the result out is readMVar; that blocks if there's nothing in there yet |
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| 09:02:43 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i guess we're back to the monadic innovation, i.e, imperative programming is a subset of monadic effect programming, but all monadic effect programming is not imperative programming |
| 09:03:42 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> trying to jam throwing side effects upon evaluation into haskell apparently creates interesting and novel possibilities because it's an emulation based on Haskell's core semantics, so the terms of the emulation can be changed |
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| 09:04:10 | <tomsmeding> | you can actually also do this in C, though |
| 09:04:16 | <tomsmeding> | just replace `IO a` by a function pointer |
| 09:04:36 | <tomsmeding> | need to allocate the IORef itself on the heap though, so that it keeps a stable address |
| 09:04:46 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> tomsmeding: the problem is, if a value of t he type is evaluated, the effect encapsulated within should be executed |
| 09:04:57 | <tomsmeding> | outside of IO? |
| 09:05:06 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the IORef is there to provide persistence |
| 09:05:15 | <tomsmeding> | it sounds like you want to run IO outside of an IO context |
| 09:05:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> maybe I don't need the IORef? |
| 09:05:36 | <tomsmeding> | that just sounds like `data Impure a = Impure a` that you initialise using forkIO (unsafePerformIO) |
| 09:05:42 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's just a thought experiment |
| 09:05:43 | <tomsmeding> | or not even the forkiO |
| 09:05:59 | <tomsmeding> | the 'data' there is relevant because forcing the Impure should not yet force the value, probably |
| 09:06:16 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the key feature is that to evaluate the term, seq (unsafePerformIO something) occurs, meaning evaluation results in the effect being thrown |
| 09:06:51 | <tomsmeding> | `data Impure a = Impure a; initialise :: IO a -> Impure a; initialise m = Impure (unsafePerformIO m); read :: Impure a -> a; read (Impure x) = x` |
| 09:07:09 | <tomsmeding> | evaluating the result of `read i` will run the IO |
| 09:07:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> yeah tbh you could just do data |
| 09:07:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> and then put strictness annotation on the field that's supposed to trigger the effect |
| 09:07:22 | <tomsmeding> | but the result will be cached in the Impure because lazy evaluation |
| 09:07:24 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> and leave the effect as a thunk |
| 09:07:37 | <tomsmeding> | no one needs access to the effect later |
| 09:07:46 | <tomsmeding> | it's already there in the thunk for the `a` field |
| 09:07:49 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm not sure, am i saying anything interesting? |
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| 09:08:17 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i.e, trying to abuse the thunk system for computing purposes? |
| 09:08:24 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> *effect throwing purposes? |
| 09:08:29 | <tomsmeding> | that's what my last suggestion does |
| 09:08:47 | <tomsmeding> | and then honestly you don't even need the Impure wrwapper |
| 09:09:06 | <tomsmeding> | an impure `a` is just an `a` that happens to be created using unsafePerformIO |
| 09:09:16 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> but the impure wrapper is equivalent to unsafe |
| 09:09:26 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> otherwise it doesn't have a warning that you're using unsafePerformIO |
| 09:09:28 | <tomsmeding> | if you make sure the `a` is not in a strict field, then the effect will only be run when you actually demand the result |
| 09:09:36 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> theoretically you can embed seq (unsafePerformIO foo) into any type |
| 09:09:42 | <tomsmeding> | without the seq |
| 09:09:47 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> or rather pseq |
| 09:09:47 | <tomsmeding> | seq takes two arguments |
| 09:10:13 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> that's intended to be a partially applied function |
| 09:10:23 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
| 09:10:43 | <tomsmeding> | so the effect doesn't actually compute something, it is there _just_ for the side-effect? |
| 09:10:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> yeah |
| 09:10:51 | <tomsmeding> | and you want to trigger it by reading a particular field |
| 09:10:53 | <tomsmeding> | ew |
| 09:11:03 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> by evaluating the field |
| 09:11:11 | <tomsmeding> | make sure the effect returns the field in question |
| 09:11:14 | <tomsmeding> | and then do my solution? :p |
| 09:11:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I'll just return a bottom ;) |
| 09:11:44 | <tomsmeding> | ... which will throw an exception upon evaluation? |
| 09:11:47 | <tomsmeding> | that sounds counterproductive |
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| 09:12:25 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm joking, this is just degenerate haskell |
| 09:12:33 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm just wondering if this degenerate haskell is at all useful or interesting |
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| 09:15:28 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> it's interesting in some other context. You might want to checkout this thread: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/using-unsafeperformio-safely/4146 |
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| 09:56:08 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> sorry, i'm just full of it |
| 09:56:17 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's just a way to smuggle unsafePerformIo, because that's what it basically is |
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| 09:57:49 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> UnsafeImpure |
| 09:57:57 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> better off doing it via proper IO, sequence, etc |
| 10:00:15 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> if you can make it typesafe, I see a case for a library user to use it. |
| 10:00:15 | <haskellbridge> | I remember in the RSet package, it "smuggles" a unsafePerformanceIO, but the interface and ergonomics of the library outweighs that little dirty secret |
| 10:00:41 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rec-def-0.2.2 |
| 10:03:02 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> if you were on the wechat, you'd know the user named accursedUnutterablePerformIO |
| 10:03:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> unsafePerformIO is supposed to mean that the onus of confirming that the action is safe is up to the developer |
| 10:03:25 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 10:03:46 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> and accursed, that's in the bytestring lib, which disables a ton of safeguards around the normal unsafePerformIO |
| 10:05:27 | <davean> | Liamzee: I wouldn't say safeguards persay ... |
| 10:07:17 | <davean> | Liamzee: I'd say they're things to make it behave more expectedly, not safeguards. Its about surprise, not safety |
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| 14:51:09 | <EvanR> | say you have f1 and f2 which can compose. And someone says they both have a 95% chance of being correct. What's the chance that f2 . f1 is correct xD |
| 14:51:58 | <EvanR> | (watching a talk where this notion comes up as a side remark) |
| 14:54:05 | <EvanR> | is it 90.25% |
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| 15:27:51 | <int-e> | EvanR: what if f2 is incorrect on all outputs of f1 |
| 15:29:11 | <EvanR> | yes the more information you get the close the probability gets to 100% or 0% |
| 15:30:09 | <ski> | "95% chance of being correct" -- given a random input ? or given `f1' being chosen from a stochastic distribution, with 95% chance of being correct on all inputs ? |
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| 15:36:26 | <merijn> | And is there a chance the error in f2 corrects the error in f1? |
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| 15:39:06 | <int-e> | EvanR: I like using optimistic assumptions :P |
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| 15:41:31 | <int-e> | EvanR: Actually it's not only underspecified; it's also ambiguous. does that probability correspond to the function per input or in total (i.e. there's a 95% chance that it's implemented correctly, working for all inputs)? |
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| 15:41:41 | <EvanR> | all interesting possibilities. I implicitly imagined 95% means, there's a bug in the code, or there isn't. And the probability is 95% no there isn't |
| 15:42:17 | <EvanR> | which might mean you can't observe the bug because it would cause bad performance but leave all the answers right |
| 15:42:53 | <int-e> | If it's total correctness then at least you get a 90% lower bound for the composition working correctly as well. |
| 15:42:57 | <EvanR> | or like merijn suggested, two errors cancel and the whole thing is somehow correct xD |
| 15:43:12 | <int-e> | (actually 90%, not 90.25%) |
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| 15:43:19 | <tomsmeding> | > 0.95 ^ 2 |
| 15:43:20 | <lambdabot> | 0.9025 |
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| 15:43:49 | <int-e> | > 1 - ((1-0.95) + (1-0.95)) -- works without assumption of independence |
| 15:43:51 | <lambdabot> | 0.8999999999999999 |
| 15:43:58 | <int-e> | thanks, floating point math |
| 15:44:09 | <tomsmeding> | "you're welcome" |
| 15:44:47 | <int-e> | but it's still good enough to show what I meant :) |
| 15:45:02 | <EvanR> | can you elaborate on the 90% case |
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| 15:45:55 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: if the correctness of f1 and f2 is correlated, it could be that in 5% of the universes, f1 is faulty, and in a _disjoint_ 5% of the universes, f2 is faulty |
| 15:46:04 | <tomsmeding> | then in 5 + 5 = 10% of the universes, either f1 or f2 is faulty |
| 15:46:05 | <int-e> | EvanR: it's possible that each function has a 5% chance of being implemented incorrectly, but that at least one of them is always correct, so those 5% never overlap in the probability space |
| 15:46:22 | <int-e> | too slow :) |
| 15:46:35 | <tomsmeding> | (if faultiness of f1 and f2 is uncorrelated, then that second 5% will partially overlap with the first) |
| 15:47:00 | <EvanR> | how would they be correlated |
| 15:47:18 | <int-e> | it's a modelling problem |
| 15:47:27 | <tomsmeding> | roll a d20 and introduce a bug in f1 if it's 1, and introduce a bug in f2 if it's 2 |
| 15:47:30 | <EvanR> | like, one is implemented using the other |
| 15:47:32 | <tomsmeding> | both now have 95% of being correct |
| 15:47:35 | <int-e> | heck f1 and f2 could share code, though that would likely move the probability in the opposite direction |
| 15:47:40 | <tomsmeding> | 95% chance |
| 15:48:00 | <tomsmeding> | but the combination has only 90% chance of being correct |
| 15:48:23 | <tomsmeding> | 90% is a lower bound; any less maliciously correlated and the probability will be higher than 90% |
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| 15:48:37 | <EvanR> | could you go below 90% |
| 15:48:42 | <tomsmeding> | no |
| 15:49:11 | <tomsmeding> | if f1 is faulty in 5% of the cases and f2 is also faulty in 5% of the cases, _at most_ 10% of the cases see one of the two functions being faulty |
| 15:49:12 | <int-e> | But really... it becomes a modelling question. Maybe you have 20 programmers, and 19 of them are perfect while one of them produces faulty code all the time, and you assign two programmers to implement the two functions (one each). |
| 15:49:46 | <int-e> | . o O ( 19 hoomans and one LLM ) |
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| 15:50:15 | <EvanR> | I feel like monochrome should suggest taking the 100% wrong LLM and post process it with a NOT gate |
| 15:50:35 | <tomsmeding> | if only you could make wrong code right by passing it through a NOT gate |
| 15:50:39 | <int-e> | EvanR: That only works for binary answers. |
| 15:50:40 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 15:51:16 | <tomsmeding> | > 1/20 + 19/20 * 1/19 |
| 15:51:18 | <lambdabot> | 0.1 |
| 15:51:25 | <tomsmeding> | okay that makes sense |
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| 16:05:25 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> huh, they're still alive? |
| 16:05:25 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://www.polimorphic.com |
| 16:06:08 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://github.com/orgs/polimorphic/repositories |
| 16:06:14 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> last update in 2024 |
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| 16:51:52 | <EvanR> | would be nice if that meant it all still worked xD |
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| 20:33:04 | <ii8> | Hello, how do I install ghc with hadrian? I'm running `hadrian/build install --prefix=/usr` but nothing seems to actually get put in /usr |
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| 20:35:11 | <geekosaur> | I don't thinlk `install` is implemented yet. you normally produce a bindist using one of the bindist targets and install from that |
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| 20:38:06 | <geekosaur> | in any case, questions about hadrian are best asked in #ghc |
| 20:38:37 | <ii8> | Ok thanks, I'll try asking there |
| 20:39:10 | <geekosaur> | there's a long term project to produce fully relocatable installs, which I think is what the install target is reserved for |
| 20:39:28 | <ii8> | There is already an install target |
| 20:39:39 | <geekosaur> | yes, as I said, it's reserved |
| 20:39:40 | <ii8> | I just don't know how to set DESTDIR for it |
| 20:39:45 | <geekosaur> | it doesn't do anything |
| 20:39:51 | <ii8> | Well it's doing something |
| 20:39:56 | <geekosaur> | only the bindist build targets work presently |
| 20:40:12 | <ii8> | Ah I see |
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| 20:40:40 | <ii8> | And once the bindist is made I have to use the makefile inside it to install properly? |
| 20:40:46 | <geekosaur> | yes |
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| 20:41:16 | <ii8> | Alright, a little awkward but I'll do that, thanks |
| 20:41:20 | <geekosaur> | that does the relocation, analyzes the local toolchain, and generates the ghc configuration, which it then installs |
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| 23:05:14 | <EvanR> | wow I dug up a very critical memo throwing activeVRML under the bus in 1995 https://www.naturalinnovation.org/vrml/vrml2/activevrml_comparison_12dec95.pdf |
| 23:06:35 | <EvanR> | claiming the time varying behaviors are equivalent to objects getting events over time. That programmers naturally think in terms of procedures, do this, do that. Imperative programming, specifically in the form of java, is the future of the web |
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| 23:07:43 | <EvanR> | that ML has been trying for decades to make an optimizing enough compiler and so far failed, so OOP is better |
| 23:07:59 | <EvanR> | (looks like they never heard of haskell) |
| 23:09:00 | <EvanR> | today VRML is not really at thing and in the end directly using OpenGL or Vulkan in the browser is what won |
| 23:09:17 | <EvanR> | thanks SGI |
| 23:13:01 | <sm> | cool, cool. I remember when that was really hot |
| 23:13:20 | <sm> | VR, man! It's crazy! |
| 23:13:30 | <EvanR> | yeah two years ago! |
| 23:13:33 | <EvanR> | time flies |
| 23:14:00 | <EvanR> | zuckerberg's failed metaverse |
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| 23:16:42 | <sm> | memo seems convincing |
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| 23:20:27 | <EvanR> | a summary of other proposals at the time https://rodger.global-linguist.com/a-short-history-of-vrml-2-0/ |
| 23:21:05 | <sm> | also is it my imagination or is #haskell, IRC, matrix and the internet quieter than it used to be ? |
| 23:21:32 | <EvanR> | which claims that ActiveVRML "lives on" |
| 23:21:50 | EvanR | looks at haskellbridge |
| 23:21:58 | sm | needs chat stats |
| 23:21:59 | <EvanR> | hmm |
| 23:22:35 | <geekosaur> | ircbrowse has them |
| 23:23:06 | <geekosaur> | but yes, things have been quieter of late |
| 23:23:16 | <geekosaur> | I think everyone's decamping for discord, sadly |
| 23:23:52 | <int-e> | EvanR: VRChat is a thing and even Second Life still exists... I don't know what Zuck was thinking his company could offer to supplant those. |
| 23:24:28 | <EvanR> | he had to do anything at the time to distract from the company's "issues" |
| 23:24:36 | <EvanR> | didn't have to make sense |
| 23:24:39 | <int-e> | But what level of accuracy for predicting the future do you really expect from "the future is video" guy. |
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| 23:25:36 | <EvanR> | technically ActiveWorlds still exists |
| 23:25:55 | <EvanR> | the future was there, in the past |
| 23:26:35 | <int-e> | As for the ActiveVRML thing... it really feels like MS doing MS things: Take an evolving open standard, jump on the train but do things in a obnoxiously incompatible way. |
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| 23:29:32 | <EvanR> | yes, though it is funny, that it is basically FRP |
| 23:29:35 | <int-e> | Ironically optimizing compilers won in the end, and people use GL from JS (and now Webassembly). |
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| 23:32:38 | <int-e> | EvanR: Yes. I saw that Conal Elliott was involved so that was an unexpected connection. |
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| 23:35:39 | <EvanR> | in the abstract to An Embedded Modeling Language Approach to |
| 23:35:39 | <EvanR> | Interactive 3D and Multimedia Animation, it says "While interactive multimedia animation is a very compelling medium, few people are able to express themselves in it.". This was 1999 |
| 23:35:55 | <EvanR> | before the era of terrible flash animation |
| 23:36:16 | <EvanR> | where we all found out maybe it's good some people can't express themselves xD |
| 23:37:26 | <EvanR> | one way or another, people got the VR they were promised but it was via imperative programming |
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| 23:47:32 | <jackdk> | The Flash era also showed that the barrier to people expressing themselves was a tooling limitation, not a limitation of the people |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-04-22.