Logs on 2025-04-23 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 03:06:17 | <monochrom> | Belated: IMO one should look at the ratio "how much the code optimizer achieves / how many human-hours thrown at code optimizer", it is OOP and C that failed miserably, and ML and Haskell that outperformed. |
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| 03:07:22 | <monochrom> | Like, miilions of dollars and millions of human-hours thrown at C optimization, and it's only 1.1x ideal assembly? That's miserable. |
| 03:08:02 | <monochrom> | And merely 0.1% as much thrown at ML and Haskell, and that's already 2x C. |
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| 03:13:31 | <monochrom> | Not to mention how much money Sun/Oracle and IBM threw at Java summed up and still merely on par with GHC which gets a much smaller budget. |
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| 04:22:56 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The world took the wrong direction and engineers tried to fix it (computers nowadays are magical and wonderful though) |
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| 04:28:32 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Not trusting anyone seems to lead to the least painful development experience. Add good types because you don't trust developers, automated tests because you don't trust beta testers, CI because you don't trust people running tests, CD because you don't trust people building programs, proper interview cycles because you don't trust your client's opinion, models because you don't trust your memory, prototypes... |
| 04:28:37 | <haskellbridge> | ... because you don't trust your client's desires, flexible software design methods because you don't trust your designs, code reviews because you don't trust your coworkers, etc |
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| 05:30:35 | <mike1127> | I' |
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| 05:32:13 | <mike1127> | I'm writing code in the Error monad in which I throw errors that indicate implementation errors, sort of like failed asserts. I just realized that a lot of these would go away if I used List.NonEmpty. Is that usually a good idea? |
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| 05:59:24 | <c_wraith> | If the ergonomics work out, it's a great idea |
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| 07:25:00 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> @monochrom: I'm curious what GHC would look like if someone were to dump megabucks on it |
| 07:25:47 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's perfectly possible that GHC simply doesn't scale well for investment, so it's not an automatic given that GHC would be much better if it were awash in resources |
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| 07:28:08 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> that said, I'm wondering if it's accurate to say that Haskell isn't a purely statically typed language |
| 07:28:17 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> Gradual typing is a hybrid between static and dynamic typing |
| 07:29:24 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> static typing with polymorphism, on the other hand, is implicitly also a hybrid, coming from the other direction |
| 07:30:03 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the "aggressively polymorphic" nature of Haskell, with typeclasses, HKTs, and type inference suggest that this might be notable as something different from other statically typed languages |
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| 07:52:01 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> The last time I asked people in the know, I estimate that the required investment to lift GHC to a new level from a usability perspective, is below a million dollars a year. |
| 07:52:03 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/oewMBQhCudadRpqVeYQuNyAJ/Ci1gGUPGvb8 (3 lines) |
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| 07:59:15 | <int-e> | :t lift |
| 07:59:16 | <lambdabot> | (MonadTrans t, Monad m) => m a -> t m a |
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| 08:33:36 | <snow> | hey |
| 08:35:26 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> hellwolf: i was guessing you were with serokell? |
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| 08:42:46 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> no |
| 08:42:53 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I have nothing to do with them |
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| 09:08:34 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> awww |
| 09:08:37 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i like serokell |
| 09:09:46 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> superfluid |
| 09:10:10 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> at least it's a cool crypto-scam, i mean, if crypto winter really hits in, you could always move to CBDC |
| 09:10:40 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the idea of money being transferred as continuous streams instead of quanta is interesting |
| 09:11:19 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> is it a scam to you? watch out |
| 09:11:46 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> why? |
| 09:12:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> startups are scams, 70% fail rate after 5 years, but some of them stop being scams |
| 09:13:03 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> okay. thanks for your opinion. I hope you will never be a scammer. |
| 09:13:16 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i plan to become a scammer :3 |
| 09:15:36 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> just be a bit careful. words have emotional meanings; not everyone is ready to joke around 24/7 :p |
| 09:15:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> sorry :( |
| 09:15:56 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i was going to apologize to you, i'm just morally fluid on business practices and so on |
| 09:16:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the polite way to say it is "hustle" |
| 09:16:06 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> but i dislike hustle culture |
| 09:16:52 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> but yeah, i'm apologizing for hurt feelings and offending you, you've been kind to me |
| 09:16:54 | <__monty__> | What CBDC incorporates the idea of continuous streams? And can we move the discussion to off-topic? |
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| 09:33:58 | <[exa]> | Liamzee: there's #haskell-scam for scam discussion |
| 09:35:37 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> That seems off-topic. Unfortunately, there isn't a true paradox: migrating to #haskell-scam for scam discussion renders #haskell-scam not a scam, and consequently it is also off-topic in #haskell-scam. |
| 09:36:11 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> The act of doing so, however, is discrete and thus impure, preventing a true superimposition of states. |
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| 09:37:05 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> and yeah, lol |
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| 12:14:12 | <jco> | Hey, I've got a pretty basic question about the Pipes library: I'm making a small Redis server (for fun). I have a "global" setting controlling whether I'm in a Redis transaction (MULTI). If a transaction is currently "active", all commands received by the server should be queued instead of running them. The only command that should be run when we're in a transaction is "EXEC", which finishes the transaction |
| 12:14:18 | <jco> | and runs all the queued commands. I'm struggling a bit with how to model this in Pipes, i.e. how can I "fan out" to different pipes depending on both the global setting, and the stream element (command) itself? The following works for just the global setting, but will of course not work for the EXEC command (i.e. _no_ commands will actually run): https://paste.tomsmeding.com/zr5rBhs0 |
| 12:15:09 | <jco> | Both `queueCommands` and `runCommands` in the above snippet are `Consumers`. |
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| 13:49:54 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> oh, my god |
| 13:50:14 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> actually, i won't mention it, but the new magical haskell... a combination of genius and ed wood |
| 13:50:23 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> okay so i did |
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| 14:17:01 | <[exa]> | jco: not sure if the pipes would be sufficient for this (not even if they'd be practical) |
| 14:18:49 | <[exa]> | jco: for redis-style sharing of events you might want something more dynamic, e.g. piping your pipes to some Chans (TChan?) from the concurrent programming |
| 14:21:33 | <[exa]> | certainly you will likely need some more advanced structure for the transaction processing. Is redis transaction a buffer (as in, only holding the commands until EXEC fires) or can it actually block other people because it reads stuff that it expects to be immutable by others until it's finished? |
| 14:22:20 | <[exa]> | ah ok it's just a queue |
| 14:22:59 | <[exa]> | then maybe a "stateful" pipe which absorbs the commands into a buffer until there's EXEC and then sends everything out at once could be worth it. |
| 14:25:33 | <[exa]> | should be doable with `await` in a loop |
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| 15:21:44 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> okay, finished magical haskell, it's just bad |
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| 18:27:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> accursedUnutterablePerformIO reported that digital ocean joined Haskell Foundation as a functor |
| 18:27:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> Digital Ocean is a major cloud service provider |
| 18:29:29 | <monochrom> | What is a functor there? :) |
| 18:29:38 | <tomsmeding> | they renamed it to "bronze" |
| 18:30:07 | <monochrom> | If I donate a billion dollar, can I make them call me "a monad"? >:) |
| 18:30:29 | <tomsmeding> | oh the website still has the FAM names |
| 18:30:38 | <monochrom> | haha neato |
| 18:30:46 | <tomsmeding> | the latest monthly update on discourse had bronze/silver/gold |
| 18:30:51 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: https://haskell.foundation/donations/ |
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| 18:31:08 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> honestly, are there any other three-tiered typeclasses? |
| 18:31:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> Stuff I can think of is mainly two-tiered, foldable traversable, semigroup monad |
| 18:31:56 | <tomsmeding> | the metals terminology was first seen here https://discourse.haskell.org/t/haskell-foundation-q1-2025-update/11835 I think |
| 18:32:06 | <mauke> | Num, Real, Integral |
| 18:32:10 | <monochrom> | If we had Group, we would have Semigroup-Monoid-Group |
| 18:32:22 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: Enum |
| 18:32:40 | <int-e> | monochrom: at a billion dollars you might cause macroeconomic side effects |
| 18:32:48 | <monochrom> | hahaha |
| 18:33:35 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: at the bottom of https://haskell.foundation/donations/ , the lists of sponsors are indeed called "monads", "applicatives" and "functors" |
| 18:34:12 | <monochrom> | Equality-Iso-Lens from lens |
| 18:34:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the sponsorship is weird |
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| 18:34:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> on the q1 2025, like, it seems as though people dropped out? |
| 18:34:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> Mercury also went to Gold |
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| 18:48:07 | <monochrom> | Hahahaha "Incoherent instances is on because it’s too tedious to check for the condition. I’m lazy." and "And the extensions are always on because it adds a lot of complexity to have them optional." from augustss on the Discourse about MicroHs. |
| 18:51:13 | <mauke> | also, writing a static type checker is hard. can't we just add dynamic typing to haskell? |
| 18:56:02 | <monochrom> | That's available as unsafeCoerce. >:) |
| 18:58:23 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, isn't that reasonable given the intent of MicroHs? |
| 18:58:34 | <monochrom> | OK OK, just joking, dynamic typing does not mean unsafeCoerce. |
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| 18:58:56 | <tomsmeding> | if you want a production-ready haskell compiler that is configurable and checks your work, there's a very good one called GHC :p |
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| 18:59:35 | <tomsmeding> | if I were as good as augustss at jamming out haskell compilers, I'd have done the same |
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| 19:37:16 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> monochrom: That's what Data.Dynamic is for |
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| 22:27:10 | <EvanR> | dhall configuration language looks pretty cool. I wonder if there is a way to write DOOM with it |
| 22:28:13 | <Rembane> | I don't think there is due to no Turing for Dhall. |
| 22:28:44 | <EvanR> | on nightmare mode, all play sessions will terminate |
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| 22:29:13 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Dhall can't do much wrt IO, but if you generate source for another lang with it you can |
| 22:30:57 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> If you force some conditions into the player you could fit it into totality, like always getting closer to the goal (using a fixed set of markers, distance wouldn't work) or a timer |
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| 22:31:59 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Just a very very large timer would suffice, it can be larger than the longest playtime recorded, no problem |
| 22:33:28 | <EvanR> | doom non-eternal |
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| 23:00:10 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> what's the point of dhall if it doesn't even support optional indentation like Haskell? |
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| 23:20:16 | <EvanR> | is optional indentation in haskell really optional really |
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| 23:23:44 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> sure you can write it like C instead with explicit {;} |
| 23:24:20 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> but that really feels like violation of DRY to me |
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| 23:27:25 | <EvanR> | "you can" but basically, you won't |
| 23:27:37 | <EvanR> | I can't even tell people "you can" do that seriously |
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| 23:32:54 | <geekosaur> | what's not DRY about explicit braces? I mean, you avoid repeating the indentation! |
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| 23:46:41 | <monochrom> | Best of both worlds is obviously indentation and {;}. |
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| 23:49:16 | <monochrom> | Would you say that type annotations (except to resolve ambiguous instances) violate DRY because types are inferred so the term already has the same information so don't repeat it in types? |
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| 23:53:31 | <EvanR> | I pretty much dropped DRY after writing haskell because so much cruft is removed you have the luxury of repeating stuff for emphasis |
| 23:54:07 | <EvanR> | it is known that if you reduce a program to minimum size it looks like random noise |
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| 23:54:40 | <monochrom> | I agree. |
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