Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2025-05-05 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:29:49 haskellbridge shapr stretches a monad to check its tensor strength
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00:33:59 <monochrom> haha
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00:37:01 <Tikosh> I have taffybar and am attempting to put a battery widget on my taffybar with no luck. does anyone know any documentation or know how to make a battery widget for taffybar?
00:39:10 <geekosaur> there's a slight chance you'll do better asking in #xmonad, fwiw
00:39:48 <Tikosh> alright! thanks
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04:28:22 <Square2> A 3rd party dependency requires me to use https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.3.0/docs/Numeric-Natural.html
04:28:55 <Square2> Sadly there are dead links to source and the "NS" constructor they link
04:29:56 <Square2> Anyone know what's up with that?
04:32:36 <EvanR> I was about to pull up the source another way
04:33:28 <EvanR> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-bignum-1.2/docs/src/GHC.Num.Natural.html#Natural
04:34:20 <EvanR> which is where it seemed to want to go but the haddocks had weird urls
04:35:57 <EvanR> (I wonder if it was unintentional for WORD_MAXBOUND in the doc comment to be preprocessed)
04:36:08 <Square2> Thanks. I seemed to get past the hurdle
04:36:31 <Square2> ghci let me create one with "123 :: Natural"
04:36:56 <Square2> ...and hopefully I'll get by with some fromInteger/toInteger hackery in my code. =D
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04:38:02 <EvanR> > fromInteger 123 :: Natural
04:38:04 <lambdabot> error:
04:38:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Natural’
04:38:09 <EvanR> :(
04:38:18 <monochrom> yahb2 probably has it.
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04:38:21 <EvanR> @let import Data.Natural
04:38:21 <lambdabot> /sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:110:1: error:
04:38:21 <lambdabot> Could not find module ‘Data.Natural’
04:38:21 <lambdabot> Use -v (or `:set -v` in ghci) to see a list of the files searched for.
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04:38:35 <monochrom> Numeric.Natural
04:38:39 <EvanR> @let import Numeric.Natural
04:38:40 <lambdabot> Defined.
04:38:44 <EvanR> > fromInteger 123 :: Natural
04:38:45 <lambdabot> 123
04:38:50 <EvanR> > fromInteger (-123) :: Natural
04:38:51 <lambdabot> *Exception: arithmetic underflow
04:39:16 <EvanR> error: unnatural
04:44:36 <EvanR> :t naturalBit
04:44:37 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: naturalBit
04:46:44 <EvanR> if ghc-bignum is a dependency of base and every program has base as a dependency does that mean every program depends on ghc-bignum
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05:02:18 <probie> EvanR: Programs which depend on an old enough version of base certainly don't depend on ghc-bignum
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05:46:37 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> monochrom: no, just an alias to (,)
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05:49:28 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> EvanR: after some sleep, and the correct constructors of curry and apply. I basically come up with the solution for both cofegen and emulation the ways you and tom was trying to teach me :)
05:49:30 <haskellbridge> on hindsight, it's trivial really. But neat.
05:50:24 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> I had to just learn and stumble on my own
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06:58:07 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: best way to learn
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07:32:14 <hellwolf> "stealing lambda," instead of reimplementing may be what describes what I am really doing. I created a bridge between haskell and other target language. The bridge is categrical and simple to interpret.
07:33:06 <tomsmeding> you're mapping the exponential object in your source category to the exponential object in your target category (Hask)
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07:33:10 <tomsmeding> perhaps?
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07:38:15 <hellwolf> There is no source category per se, it's just Haskell. The target is the categorical formulation of "Solidity/Yul", which is a collection of its data types, built-in functions, and some special contructors outside of categories that I know how to use (which includes switch statement, tight loop, storage operations, inter-contract messagings, call a named function, etc.)
07:38:15 <hellwolf> The target now are instances these categories: Monoidal Category (prod, swap), Cartesian Category (fork, pi1/extract_left, pi2/extract_right, delta/discard, rou/duplicate), and Cartesian Closed (apply and curry).
07:39:42 <hellwolf> with these categorical "verbs", and those speical constructors and data types, I can then evaluate the same big GADT to anything I like to, including emulation, target source, visual representation, morally lisp s-expression etc.
07:39:53 <hellwolf> Minimal rebuilding of the wheels is the goal.
07:40:21 <hellwolf> (or simply because I don't have all the knowledge, or time, to build an entire new language that no one will use.)
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07:44:40 <hellwolf> Does it make sense?
07:44:40 <hellwolf> I need to communicate this in lambda days upcoming... I wonder if anyone happens to go there too.
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10:35:47 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> I guess not.
10:35:47 <haskellbridge> ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/dolZnXkFYAXBLYxKUQwegjkx/PTvKIhbMoy4 (11 lines)
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11:06:58 <[exa]> is there any recommendation/howto/best practices on how to sensibly publish static binaries (like what ghcup/cabal does) ?
11:07:20 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> build or publish?
11:07:31 tomsmeding would scp to a public-html/
11:08:39 <[exa]> like, the low bar is "build locally with -static and upload the blob to github". I might add gpg signature. Are there any obvious or desirable improvements to that?
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11:09:07 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> build in CI for transparency
11:09:19 <tomsmeding> watch out that glibc does not actually support being linked statically, if you use certain APIs from it, things break
11:09:28 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> https://hasufell.github.io/posts/2024-04-21-static-linking.html
11:11:32 <hellwolf> | This approach has been used in GHCup since its rewrite in Haskell.
11:11:32 <hellwolf> what was it written in?
11:11:36 <tomsmeding> maerwald: have you ever tried doing your guide but with bwrap instead of docker? I tried and it didn't work for me
11:12:01 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> hellwolf: posix shell
11:12:02 <tomsmeding> (I don't recall the precise thing that went wrong -- I think it was related to bwrap not actually creating a functioning multi-user user space inside)
11:12:19 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> https://github.com/haskell/ghcup/blob/master/ghcup
11:12:23 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> glorious days
11:13:16 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> never tried bwrap for that
11:15:49 <hellwolf> wonderful, we all started with shell, isn't it.
11:16:02 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> so did git, yes
11:16:49 <hellwolf> I thought urban legend says Linus coded in one weekend, and I always assumed it was in C.
11:17:02 <hellwolf> that would have made it more of a legend for sure.
11:17:10 <hellwolf> but in shell, I can imagine.
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11:49:16 <[exa]> hellwolf: https://github.com/git/git/commit/e83c5163316f89bfbde7d9ab23ca2e25604af290
11:49:34 <[exa]> I've got no clue why "the information manager from hell" branding didn't catch up
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11:53:37 <[exa]> maerwald: very useful post, thanks
11:55:34 <hellwolf> oh, wow, it was indeed in C, then
11:55:58 <[exa]> we're all lucky it wasn't perl
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13:12:12 <tomsmeding> > Note on changesets: unlike real SCM's
13:12:15 <tomsmeding> humble beginnings
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13:57:06 <Square2> There's no function in base that gives me the number of digits of an "Int" value?
14:01:02 <stefan-__> Square2: "length . show" should work
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14:06:33 <hellwolf> what happens to the negatives
14:07:14 <hellwolf> length . show . abs :|)
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14:15:30 <tomsmeding> is there a usecase where you want the number of numeric base-10 digits in an Int value, but where the possible '-' doesn't count?
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16:03:17 <EvanR> my money was on "an Int value which for some reason is not negative"
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16:07:30 <hellwolf> GHC.Num.Natural
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16:08:08 <hellwolf> > (negate . fromInteger) 2 :: Natural
16:08:09 <lambdabot> *Exception: arithmetic underflow
16:09:12 <EvanR> Numeric.Natural if you're nasty
16:09:38 <hellwolf> > :info Natural
16:09:39 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’
16:09:50 <EvanR> % :i Natural
16:09:50 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:1: error: [GHC-76037] ; Not in scope: data constructor ‘Natural’
16:10:02 <hellwolf> :p
16:10:10 <hellwolf> need collaboration between two bots
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16:14:04 <Digit> ;p one of my haskell bots (i'll take it back out of here momentarily), FatherJack can answer any question your bot may have. isnt that right, FatherJack?
16:14:04 <FatherJack> yes
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16:19:12 <hellwolf> FatherJack: do you live in iceland too?
16:19:12 <FatherJack> yes
16:19:24 <hellwolf> FatherJack: do you live in eestland too?
16:19:24 <FatherJack> yes
16:19:33 <hellwolf> FatherJack: you are not a total function.
16:19:43 <hellwolf> (silence)
16:20:44 <EvanR> not in the form of a question
16:20:57 <hellwolf> FatherJack: do you have partial functions?
16:20:57 <FatherJack> yes
16:21:02 <EvanR> FatherJack, ?
16:21:02 <FatherJack> yes
16:21:07 <hellwolf> FatherJack: are you only total functions?
16:21:07 <FatherJack> yes
16:21:23 <hellwolf> FatherJack: are you a shame in the age of LLM?
16:21:24 <FatherJack> yes
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16:42:56 <Digit> okies, sending FatherJack back to ##? before he gets drunk and irritating. surprised no open questions.
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16:46:02 <hellwolf> you need to demo it first
16:46:03 <hellwolf> :)
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17:54:21 <hellwolf> another compiled and worked experience.
17:54:36 <hellwolf> even with a big refactoring
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18:09:36 <monochrom> Well, "do you live in eestland" is an open question. :)
18:10:34 [exa] just discovered `cabal man`
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18:13:16 <hellwolf> $ cabal woman
18:13:16 <hellwolf> Error: cabal: unrecognised command: woman (try --help)
18:13:16 <hellwolf> Maybe you meant `man`?
18:13:23 <hellwolf> very un PC
18:13:32 <Rembane> I see a PR coming up
18:14:32 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur> as you can see, the bridge is back up
18:15:32 <hellwolf> our hero
18:15:46 <hellwolf> please send donation page.
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18:21:14 <EvanR> that's why email was a nice compromise
18:29:03 <tomsmeding> `cabal man` for me gives me a manpage-like thing but with all the ANSI escape codes literally printed out :p
18:29:49 <hellwolf> are you using xterm or some primitive stuff
18:30:03 <tomsmeding> I'm using a terminal with 24-bit color support
18:30:15 <tomsmeding> I suspect it's calling less(1) without -R or something
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18:31:47 <tomsmeding> oh
18:31:55 <tomsmeding> it sees that $PAGER is set and uses that _instead_ of `less -R`
18:32:04 <tomsmeding> that's not how that works
18:32:34 <hellwolf> I have PAGER set to "less"
18:32:38 <tomsmeding> me too
18:32:53 <monochrom> I had "export LESS=-iR" in my .profile a long time ago.
18:32:58 <tomsmeding> https://github.com/haskell/cabal/blob/6953972bfa6ec706d171cda8bfcba2b7354a8206/cabal-install/src/Distribution/Client/Manpage.hs#L88
18:33:14 <haskellbridge> <sm> in hledger, if we see PAGER=less, we append some options like -R to user's LESS
18:33:46 <monochrom> But actually I only remember adding -i myself, I don't recall why I added -R, I don't even recall hearing about -R at all.
18:34:10 <tomsmeding> -R makes less(1) print ansi escape sequences as-is to the terminal instead of, well, escaping them
18:34:54 <tomsmeding> `less -r` is for living dangerously
18:36:05 <haskellbridge> <sm> less has _so many_ options..
18:36:09 <tomsmeding> it seems man(1) defaults to less(1) these days
18:36:16 <haskellbridge> <sm> it's a bit out of control
18:36:21 <tomsmeding> perhaps I'll try unsetting PAGER for a while and seeing whether anything uses more(1)
18:36:43 <tomsmeding> (`env -u PAGER cabal man` works for me)
18:37:54 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: also, you have to get much more primitive than xterm for plain 3-bit ansi color escapes to not work
18:38:31 <hellwolf> from spelling bee to gnulongoptions bee
18:38:49 <monochrom> spelling gnu
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18:48:18 <hellwolf> I had similar issue when doing nix related --help a while ago. Now the problems have all just happily disappeared. I still dont' know what happened.
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19:09:44 <hellwolf> "\(x, y) -> (show x, y)", pointfree program tell me to use "first" from Arrow. But I don't want to.
19:10:31 <monochrom> I only know of first for this.
19:10:54 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: use first from Data.Bifunctor
19:11:01 <monochrom> But normally I just write that lambda. :)
19:11:15 <monochrom> Oh, Bifunctor. That's better.
19:11:17 <haskellbridge> <sm> 👆️
19:11:26 <hellwolf> I see
19:11:27 <c_wraith> Yeah, Bifunctor is generally the way to go.
19:11:58 <hellwolf> can you articulate your aesthetic preference...
19:12:07 <hellwolf> I can see that too, but I can't articulate it.
19:12:21 <tomsmeding> over arrow, you mean?
19:12:26 <hellwolf> yea
19:13:16 <tomsmeding> if you import Data.Arrow, it looks like you're using arrows -- usage of arrows is very rare these days, because people have figured out that the Arrow class is not a good fit for the majority of cases where arrow-like things could be good. So seeing Data.Arrow makes the reader think "hey, is this a special case where arrows _do_ work?"
19:13:20 <tomsmeding> but it's not, it's just `first`
19:13:45 <tomsmeding> Data.Bifunctor is a small subset of what Data.Arrow does -- a subset that's much more directly useful than arrows in its full generality
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19:14:05 <tomsmeding> did that make any sense?
19:14:08 <hellwolf> okay. So BiFunctor is more general, so it's better.
19:14:15 <hellwolf> that makes sense.
19:14:47 <tomsmeding> Arrow is a much stronger requirement than Bifunctor is, on a type -- but in a sense Arrow is _too_ strong: there are too few types that usefully implement Arrow
19:15:21 <EvanR> use the most general thing that would work?
19:15:26 <tomsmeding> I guess
19:16:41 <c_wraith> that's a corollary to the principle of least power, at least for abstract interfaces. The more things that can implement an interface, the less powerful it is.
19:18:55 <c_wraith> Also, Arrow is a weird fit. like Bifunctor is very directly just giving you access to a covariant functor on two type variables instead of one. That's its whole purpose.
19:19:28 <c_wraith> Arrow is about abstracting over functions on tuples
19:20:58 <c_wraith> Or really, functions on values that can be tupled.
19:23:33 <c_wraith> Where this difference really pays off is that Bifunctor's first also works with Either, but if you're using Arrow you need to switch to left instead
19:24:11 <c_wraith> It's abstracting over the wrong (for most use cases) thing, so it needs more and more pieces to cover common cases
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21:28:01 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> tomsmeding: arrow in general is about the arrow classes, no?
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21:28:06 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i abuse >>> all the time
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21:28:30 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> "did you just disguise point free code as a verticalized arrow-operator chain?"
21:30:21 <monochrom> Don't worry, (>>>) is merely Category so we're OK with it. :)
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21:42:34 <EvanR> :t (>>>)
21:42:35 <lambdabot> forall k (cat :: k -> k -> *) (a :: k) (b :: k) (c :: k). Category cat => cat a b -> cat b c -> cat a c
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21:42:52 <EvanR> you're a 3 > haskell programmer now
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21:43:43 <EvanR> in the spirit of the three * C programmer
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22:09:56 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> oh, it's been a while since i abused *** and &&&, i've totally forgotten :(
22:13:12 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> zeroArrow is about empty? well, it's const empty
22:14:53 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> "TOML already has implementations in some of the most popular programming languages today... Haskell ..."
22:14:55 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://toml.io/en/
22:14:58 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> thanks tom!
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22:41:01 <EvanR> tom's markup language
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23:03:48 <JuanDaugherty> enwiki sez he's a billionaire
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23:38:09 <monochrom> EvanR: haha that's brilliant
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23:43:20 <monochrom> Hey that's very inspiring. Next time I make an infix operator and can't think of a better name, it's ^^^ then! data BinTree a = Nil | BinTree a :^^^: BinTree a
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23:47:38 <monochrom> \∩/ ::: also works
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