Logs on 2025-05-05 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:29:49 | haskellbridge | shapr stretches a monad to check its tensor strength |
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| 00:33:59 | <monochrom> | haha |
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| 00:37:01 | <Tikosh> | I have taffybar and am attempting to put a battery widget on my taffybar with no luck. does anyone know any documentation or know how to make a battery widget for taffybar? |
| 00:39:10 | <geekosaur> | there's a slight chance you'll do better asking in #xmonad, fwiw |
| 00:39:48 | <Tikosh> | alright! thanks |
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| 04:28:22 | <Square2> | A 3rd party dependency requires me to use https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.3.0/docs/Numeric-Natural.html |
| 04:28:55 | <Square2> | Sadly there are dead links to source and the "NS" constructor they link |
| 04:29:56 | <Square2> | Anyone know what's up with that? |
| 04:32:36 | <EvanR> | I was about to pull up the source another way |
| 04:33:28 | <EvanR> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-bignum-1.2/docs/src/GHC.Num.Natural.html#Natural |
| 04:34:20 | <EvanR> | which is where it seemed to want to go but the haddocks had weird urls |
| 04:35:57 | <EvanR> | (I wonder if it was unintentional for WORD_MAXBOUND in the doc comment to be preprocessed) |
| 04:36:08 | <Square2> | Thanks. I seemed to get past the hurdle |
| 04:36:31 | <Square2> | ghci let me create one with "123 :: Natural" |
| 04:36:56 | <Square2> | ...and hopefully I'll get by with some fromInteger/toInteger hackery in my code. =D |
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| 04:38:02 | <EvanR> | > fromInteger 123 :: Natural |
| 04:38:04 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 04:38:04 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Natural’ |
| 04:38:09 | <EvanR> | :( |
| 04:38:18 | <monochrom> | yahb2 probably has it. |
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| 04:38:21 | <EvanR> | @let import Data.Natural |
| 04:38:21 | <lambdabot> | /sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:110:1: error: |
| 04:38:21 | <lambdabot> | Could not find module ‘Data.Natural’ |
| 04:38:21 | <lambdabot> | Use -v (or `:set -v` in ghci) to see a list of the files searched for. |
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| 04:38:35 | <monochrom> | Numeric.Natural |
| 04:38:39 | <EvanR> | @let import Numeric.Natural |
| 04:38:40 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 04:38:44 | <EvanR> | > fromInteger 123 :: Natural |
| 04:38:45 | <lambdabot> | 123 |
| 04:38:50 | <EvanR> | > fromInteger (-123) :: Natural |
| 04:38:51 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: arithmetic underflow |
| 04:39:16 | <EvanR> | error: unnatural |
| 04:44:36 | <EvanR> | :t naturalBit |
| 04:44:37 | <lambdabot> | error: Variable not in scope: naturalBit |
| 04:46:44 | <EvanR> | if ghc-bignum is a dependency of base and every program has base as a dependency does that mean every program depends on ghc-bignum |
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| 05:02:18 | <probie> | EvanR: Programs which depend on an old enough version of base certainly don't depend on ghc-bignum |
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| 05:46:37 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> monochrom: no, just an alias to (,) |
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| 05:49:28 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> EvanR: after some sleep, and the correct constructors of curry and apply. I basically come up with the solution for both cofegen and emulation the ways you and tom was trying to teach me :) |
| 05:49:30 | <haskellbridge> | on hindsight, it's trivial really. But neat. |
| 05:50:24 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I had to just learn and stumble on my own |
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| 06:58:07 | <tomsmeding> | hellwolf: best way to learn |
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| 07:32:14 | <hellwolf> | "stealing lambda," instead of reimplementing may be what describes what I am really doing. I created a bridge between haskell and other target language. The bridge is categrical and simple to interpret. |
| 07:33:06 | <tomsmeding> | you're mapping the exponential object in your source category to the exponential object in your target category (Hask) |
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| 07:33:10 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps? |
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| 07:38:15 | <hellwolf> | There is no source category per se, it's just Haskell. The target is the categorical formulation of "Solidity/Yul", which is a collection of its data types, built-in functions, and some special contructors outside of categories that I know how to use (which includes switch statement, tight loop, storage operations, inter-contract messagings, call a named function, etc.) |
| 07:38:15 | <hellwolf> | The target now are instances these categories: Monoidal Category (prod, swap), Cartesian Category (fork, pi1/extract_left, pi2/extract_right, delta/discard, rou/duplicate), and Cartesian Closed (apply and curry). |
| 07:39:42 | <hellwolf> | with these categorical "verbs", and those speical constructors and data types, I can then evaluate the same big GADT to anything I like to, including emulation, target source, visual representation, morally lisp s-expression etc. |
| 07:39:53 | <hellwolf> | Minimal rebuilding of the wheels is the goal. |
| 07:40:21 | <hellwolf> | (or simply because I don't have all the knowledge, or time, to build an entire new language that no one will use.) |
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| 07:44:40 | <hellwolf> | Does it make sense? |
| 07:44:40 | <hellwolf> | I need to communicate this in lambda days upcoming... I wonder if anyone happens to go there too. |
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| 10:35:47 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I guess not. |
| 10:35:47 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/dolZnXkFYAXBLYxKUQwegjkx/PTvKIhbMoy4 (11 lines) |
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| 11:06:58 | <[exa]> | is there any recommendation/howto/best practices on how to sensibly publish static binaries (like what ghcup/cabal does) ? |
| 11:07:20 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> build or publish? |
| 11:07:31 | tomsmeding | would scp to a public-html/ |
| 11:08:39 | <[exa]> | like, the low bar is "build locally with -static and upload the blob to github". I might add gpg signature. Are there any obvious or desirable improvements to that? |
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| 11:09:07 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> build in CI for transparency |
| 11:09:19 | <tomsmeding> | watch out that glibc does not actually support being linked statically, if you use certain APIs from it, things break |
| 11:09:28 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> https://hasufell.github.io/posts/2024-04-21-static-linking.html |
| 11:11:32 | <hellwolf> | | This approach has been used in GHCup since its rewrite in Haskell. |
| 11:11:32 | <hellwolf> | what was it written in? |
| 11:11:36 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: have you ever tried doing your guide but with bwrap instead of docker? I tried and it didn't work for me |
| 11:12:01 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> hellwolf: posix shell |
| 11:12:02 | <tomsmeding> | (I don't recall the precise thing that went wrong -- I think it was related to bwrap not actually creating a functioning multi-user user space inside) |
| 11:12:19 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> https://github.com/haskell/ghcup/blob/master/ghcup |
| 11:12:23 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> glorious days |
| 11:13:16 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> never tried bwrap for that |
| 11:15:49 | <hellwolf> | wonderful, we all started with shell, isn't it. |
| 11:16:02 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> so did git, yes |
| 11:16:49 | <hellwolf> | I thought urban legend says Linus coded in one weekend, and I always assumed it was in C. |
| 11:17:02 | <hellwolf> | that would have made it more of a legend for sure. |
| 11:17:10 | <hellwolf> | but in shell, I can imagine. |
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| 11:49:16 | <[exa]> | hellwolf: https://github.com/git/git/commit/e83c5163316f89bfbde7d9ab23ca2e25604af290 |
| 11:49:34 | <[exa]> | I've got no clue why "the information manager from hell" branding didn't catch up |
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| 11:53:37 | <[exa]> | maerwald: very useful post, thanks |
| 11:55:34 | <hellwolf> | oh, wow, it was indeed in C, then |
| 11:55:58 | <[exa]> | we're all lucky it wasn't perl |
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| 13:12:12 | <tomsmeding> | > Note on changesets: unlike real SCM's |
| 13:12:15 | <tomsmeding> | humble beginnings |
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| 13:57:06 | <Square2> | There's no function in base that gives me the number of digits of an "Int" value? |
| 14:01:02 | <stefan-__> | Square2: "length . show" should work |
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| 14:06:33 | <hellwolf> | what happens to the negatives |
| 14:07:14 | <hellwolf> | length . show . abs :|) |
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| 14:15:30 | <tomsmeding> | is there a usecase where you want the number of numeric base-10 digits in an Int value, but where the possible '-' doesn't count? |
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| 16:03:17 | <EvanR> | my money was on "an Int value which for some reason is not negative" |
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| 16:07:30 | <hellwolf> | GHC.Num.Natural |
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| 16:08:08 | <hellwolf> | > (negate . fromInteger) 2 :: Natural |
| 16:08:09 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: arithmetic underflow |
| 16:09:12 | <EvanR> | Numeric.Natural if you're nasty |
| 16:09:38 | <hellwolf> | > :info Natural |
| 16:09:39 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
| 16:09:50 | <EvanR> | % :i Natural |
| 16:09:50 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:1:1: error: [GHC-76037] ; Not in scope: data constructor ‘Natural’ |
| 16:10:02 | <hellwolf> | :p |
| 16:10:10 | <hellwolf> | need collaboration between two bots |
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| 16:14:04 | <Digit> | ;p one of my haskell bots (i'll take it back out of here momentarily), FatherJack can answer any question your bot may have. isnt that right, FatherJack? |
| 16:14:04 | <FatherJack> | yes |
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| 16:19:12 | <hellwolf> | FatherJack: do you live in iceland too? |
| 16:19:12 | <FatherJack> | yes |
| 16:19:24 | <hellwolf> | FatherJack: do you live in eestland too? |
| 16:19:24 | <FatherJack> | yes |
| 16:19:33 | <hellwolf> | FatherJack: you are not a total function. |
| 16:19:43 | <hellwolf> | (silence) |
| 16:20:44 | <EvanR> | not in the form of a question |
| 16:20:57 | <hellwolf> | FatherJack: do you have partial functions? |
| 16:20:57 | <FatherJack> | yes |
| 16:21:02 | <EvanR> | FatherJack, ? |
| 16:21:02 | <FatherJack> | yes |
| 16:21:07 | <hellwolf> | FatherJack: are you only total functions? |
| 16:21:07 | <FatherJack> | yes |
| 16:21:23 | <hellwolf> | FatherJack: are you a shame in the age of LLM? |
| 16:21:24 | <FatherJack> | yes |
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| 16:42:56 | <Digit> | okies, sending FatherJack back to ##? before he gets drunk and irritating. surprised no open questions. |
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| 16:46:02 | <hellwolf> | you need to demo it first |
| 16:46:03 | <hellwolf> | :) |
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| 17:54:21 | <hellwolf> | another compiled and worked experience. |
| 17:54:36 | <hellwolf> | even with a big refactoring |
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| 18:09:36 | <monochrom> | Well, "do you live in eestland" is an open question. :) |
| 18:10:34 | [exa] | just discovered `cabal man` |
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| 18:13:16 | <hellwolf> | $ cabal woman |
| 18:13:16 | <hellwolf> | Error: cabal: unrecognised command: woman (try --help) |
| 18:13:16 | <hellwolf> | Maybe you meant `man`? |
| 18:13:23 | <hellwolf> | very un PC |
| 18:13:32 | <Rembane> | I see a PR coming up |
| 18:14:32 | <haskellbridge> | <geekosaur> as you can see, the bridge is back up |
| 18:15:32 | <hellwolf> | our hero |
| 18:15:46 | <hellwolf> | please send donation page. |
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| 18:21:14 | <EvanR> | that's why email was a nice compromise |
| 18:29:03 | <tomsmeding> | `cabal man` for me gives me a manpage-like thing but with all the ANSI escape codes literally printed out :p |
| 18:29:49 | <hellwolf> | are you using xterm or some primitive stuff |
| 18:30:03 | <tomsmeding> | I'm using a terminal with 24-bit color support |
| 18:30:15 | <tomsmeding> | I suspect it's calling less(1) without -R or something |
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| 18:31:47 | <tomsmeding> | oh |
| 18:31:55 | <tomsmeding> | it sees that $PAGER is set and uses that _instead_ of `less -R` |
| 18:32:04 | <tomsmeding> | that's not how that works |
| 18:32:34 | <hellwolf> | I have PAGER set to "less" |
| 18:32:38 | <tomsmeding> | me too |
| 18:32:53 | <monochrom> | I had "export LESS=-iR" in my .profile a long time ago. |
| 18:32:58 | <tomsmeding> | https://github.com/haskell/cabal/blob/6953972bfa6ec706d171cda8bfcba2b7354a8206/cabal-install/src/Distribution/Client/Manpage.hs#L88 |
| 18:33:14 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> in hledger, if we see PAGER=less, we append some options like -R to user's LESS |
| 18:33:46 | <monochrom> | But actually I only remember adding -i myself, I don't recall why I added -R, I don't even recall hearing about -R at all. |
| 18:34:10 | <tomsmeding> | -R makes less(1) print ansi escape sequences as-is to the terminal instead of, well, escaping them |
| 18:34:54 | <tomsmeding> | `less -r` is for living dangerously |
| 18:36:05 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> less has _so many_ options.. |
| 18:36:09 | <tomsmeding> | it seems man(1) defaults to less(1) these days |
| 18:36:16 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> it's a bit out of control |
| 18:36:21 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps I'll try unsetting PAGER for a while and seeing whether anything uses more(1) |
| 18:36:43 | <tomsmeding> | (`env -u PAGER cabal man` works for me) |
| 18:37:54 | <tomsmeding> | hellwolf: also, you have to get much more primitive than xterm for plain 3-bit ansi color escapes to not work |
| 18:38:31 | <hellwolf> | from spelling bee to gnulongoptions bee |
| 18:38:49 | <monochrom> | spelling gnu |
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| 18:48:18 | <hellwolf> | I had similar issue when doing nix related --help a while ago. Now the problems have all just happily disappeared. I still dont' know what happened. |
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| 19:09:30 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 19:09:44 | <hellwolf> | "\(x, y) -> (show x, y)", pointfree program tell me to use "first" from Arrow. But I don't want to. |
| 19:10:31 | <monochrom> | I only know of first for this. |
| 19:10:54 | <tomsmeding> | hellwolf: use first from Data.Bifunctor |
| 19:11:01 | <monochrom> | But normally I just write that lambda. :) |
| 19:11:15 | <monochrom> | Oh, Bifunctor. That's better. |
| 19:11:17 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> 👆️ |
| 19:11:26 | <hellwolf> | I see |
| 19:11:27 | <c_wraith> | Yeah, Bifunctor is generally the way to go. |
| 19:11:58 | <hellwolf> | can you articulate your aesthetic preference... |
| 19:12:07 | <hellwolf> | I can see that too, but I can't articulate it. |
| 19:12:21 | <tomsmeding> | over arrow, you mean? |
| 19:12:26 | <hellwolf> | yea |
| 19:13:16 | <tomsmeding> | if you import Data.Arrow, it looks like you're using arrows -- usage of arrows is very rare these days, because people have figured out that the Arrow class is not a good fit for the majority of cases where arrow-like things could be good. So seeing Data.Arrow makes the reader think "hey, is this a special case where arrows _do_ work?" |
| 19:13:20 | <tomsmeding> | but it's not, it's just `first` |
| 19:13:45 | <tomsmeding> | Data.Bifunctor is a small subset of what Data.Arrow does -- a subset that's much more directly useful than arrows in its full generality |
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| 19:14:05 | <tomsmeding> | did that make any sense? |
| 19:14:08 | <hellwolf> | okay. So BiFunctor is more general, so it's better. |
| 19:14:15 | <hellwolf> | that makes sense. |
| 19:14:47 | <tomsmeding> | Arrow is a much stronger requirement than Bifunctor is, on a type -- but in a sense Arrow is _too_ strong: there are too few types that usefully implement Arrow |
| 19:15:21 | <EvanR> | use the most general thing that would work? |
| 19:15:26 | <tomsmeding> | I guess |
| 19:16:41 | <c_wraith> | that's a corollary to the principle of least power, at least for abstract interfaces. The more things that can implement an interface, the less powerful it is. |
| 19:18:55 | <c_wraith> | Also, Arrow is a weird fit. like Bifunctor is very directly just giving you access to a covariant functor on two type variables instead of one. That's its whole purpose. |
| 19:19:28 | <c_wraith> | Arrow is about abstracting over functions on tuples |
| 19:20:58 | <c_wraith> | Or really, functions on values that can be tupled. |
| 19:23:33 | <c_wraith> | Where this difference really pays off is that Bifunctor's first also works with Either, but if you're using Arrow you need to switch to left instead |
| 19:24:11 | <c_wraith> | It's abstracting over the wrong (for most use cases) thing, so it needs more and more pieces to cover common cases |
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| 21:28:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> tomsmeding: arrow in general is about the arrow classes, no? |
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| 21:28:06 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i abuse >>> all the time |
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| 21:28:30 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> "did you just disguise point free code as a verticalized arrow-operator chain?" |
| 21:30:21 | <monochrom> | Don't worry, (>>>) is merely Category so we're OK with it. :) |
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| 21:42:34 | <EvanR> | :t (>>>) |
| 21:42:35 | <lambdabot> | forall k (cat :: k -> k -> *) (a :: k) (b :: k) (c :: k). Category cat => cat a b -> cat b c -> cat a c |
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| 21:42:52 | <EvanR> | you're a 3 > haskell programmer now |
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| 21:43:43 | <EvanR> | in the spirit of the three * C programmer |
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| 22:09:56 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> oh, it's been a while since i abused *** and &&&, i've totally forgotten :( |
| 22:13:12 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> zeroArrow is about empty? well, it's const empty |
| 22:14:53 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> "TOML already has implementations in some of the most popular programming languages today... Haskell ..." |
| 22:14:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://toml.io/en/ |
| 22:14:58 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> thanks tom! |
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| 22:41:01 | <EvanR> | tom's markup language |
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| 23:03:48 | <JuanDaugherty> | enwiki sez he's a billionaire |
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| 23:38:09 | <monochrom> | EvanR: haha that's brilliant |
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| 23:43:20 | <monochrom> | Hey that's very inspiring. Next time I make an infix operator and can't think of a better name, it's ^^^ then! data BinTree a = Nil | BinTree a :^^^: BinTree a |
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| 23:47:38 | <monochrom> | \∩/ ::: also works |
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