Logs on 2025-05-13 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 08:50:12 | <[exa]> | EvanR, c_wraith: just for the imgui+gloss integration yesterday.. turns out it works. Apparently gloss has a separate "render this picture here" function, and you can just plug it in the imgui demo. Even passing the events kinda works. |
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| 10:18:29 | <yin> | https://paste.jrvieira.com/1747131475164 why is liftA2 qualified like this? |
| 10:18:47 | <yin> | oops wrong paste |
| 10:19:12 | <yin> | https://paste.jrvieira.com/1747131542069 |
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| 10:23:53 | <Leary> | yin: Because it isn't in scope. |
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| 10:46:28 | <tomsmeding> | yin: import Control.Applicative, and it won't be qualified any more |
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| 11:25:54 | <yin> | this is so confusing |
| 11:26:23 | <yin> | why is it GHC.Base.liftA2 and not Control.Applicative.liftA2 then? |
| 11:27:56 | <tomsmeding> | yin: because the Applicative class, including its liftA2 member, is defined in GHC.Base and only re-exported from Control.Applicative |
| 11:28:05 | <tomsmeding> | the class and its members _except_ liftA2 are additionally re-exported from Prelude |
| 11:28:50 | <tomsmeding> | the fact that Applicative is not defined in Control.Applicative but in GHC.Base, however, is an implementation detail that you should generally not need to rely on |
| 11:29:13 | <tomsmeding> | but ghci cares not, it just shows the facts as they are |
| 11:29:45 | <yin> | is liftA2 defined at the top level in GHC.Base? |
| 11:30:09 | <tomsmeding> | no, as part of the Applicative class |
| 11:30:44 | <yin> | why is it not re-exported then? |
| 11:31:02 | <yin> | <*> is defined in terms of it, isn't it? |
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| 11:41:33 | <tomsmeding> | yin: why as in socially why, or as in technically how is it possible? |
| 11:43:15 | <tomsmeding> | because the former is most likely "backwards compatibility, liftA2 was not in the class originally" |
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| 11:48:03 | <yin> | i see |
| 11:48:23 | <yin> | shame. liftA2 is one of my favourite combinators |
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| 11:57:44 | <tomsmeding> | `import Control.Applicative` :p |
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| 12:00:14 | <Leary> | That or replace your crusty old GHC with something >=9.6. |
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| 12:16:16 | <tomsmeding> | heh |
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| 15:18:38 | <yin> | not wrong |
| 15:21:40 | <[exa]> | speaking of new ghc versions |
| 15:23:02 | <[exa]> | is that annoying warning on `head` and `tail` that's making the poor newbie students shudder in terror going away soon? |
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| 15:33:15 | <merijn> | [exa]: Which one? |
| 15:34:28 | <[exa]> | anytime we use `head` in courses it screams like "hey head is partial this is gonna crash" etc. Which is ofc useful but for people who are already struggling enough to even parse the output it's a little unconstructive |
| 15:34:53 | <merijn> | [exa]: Are you sure that's on by default and not in some warning flag you enabled? |
| 15:35:52 | <merijn> | [exa]: Considering the docs say it's only in since 9.8, probably not :p |
| 15:35:56 | <[exa]> | it looks like default in 9.8 or 9.10 (can't see which one we're using) |
| 15:36:18 | <[exa]> | but well nevermind I'm nerdraging over this here |
| 15:36:35 | <[exa]> | ghhrrr, so correct!! but!!! so annoying!!111 aghgggg! |
| 15:36:43 | <merijn> | [exa]: The docs link to the proposal which explains how to disable it, so... |
| 15:37:20 | <[exa]> | maybe I'll just tell the students to go with the recommended version from ghcup, looks like it's 9.6 |
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| 15:39:21 | <monochrom> | I don't teach head or tail, so I don't have that problem. >:) |
| 15:39:56 | <monochrom> | But OK one day some other do-gooder warning is going to bite me. |
| 15:42:00 | <monochrom> | The school lab here is still at 9.4.8 and I am too lazy to ask the sysadmin to upgrade. >:) |
| 15:42:51 | <[exa]> | what annoys me is that I see no such warning on `read` et al |
| 15:43:09 | <[exa]> | well nvm, </nerdrage> |
| 15:45:53 | <[exa]> | hm, is there any tooling to manage structured StateVar's ? (from here: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/StateVar-1.2.2/docs/Data-StateVar.html ) |
| 15:46:35 | <monochrom> | Oh yeah the really annoying thing about those do-gooder warnings is that they are so bloody inconsistent. |
| 15:47:09 | <monochrom> | Suppose you have "data U = U". So it's isomorphic to (), right? |
| 15:47:59 | <monochrom> | Suppose you have foo :: IO () and bar :: IO U. -Wall warns about "do bar; ..." but not "do foo; ...". |
| 15:51:10 | <monochrom> | I think the standard answer is lens? :) |
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| 15:55:26 | <[exa]> | monochrom: for StateVar? yeah looks like that |
| 15:56:31 | <[exa]> | let's make a bit of glue that connects this together |
| 15:57:36 | <[exa]> | btw it's for this thing: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dear-imgui-2.3.1/docs/DearImGui.html#v:sliderInt |
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| 15:58:05 | <[exa]> | you do `sliderInt "value" someRefToInt 0 100` and it updates the ref |
| 15:59:07 | <[exa]> | I'd love to have State-ish lenses for that, as in `sliderInt "position" x 0 100` where x points into some `Position{_x::Int, ...}` or so |
| 16:00:25 | <[exa]> | unfortunately the setters&getters can't be "any" monad, they only get MonadIO |
| 16:00:52 | [exa] | dives into the glue |
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| 16:40:13 | <EvanR> | head and tail are advanced pro tools only for the leet |
| 16:40:33 | <EvanR> | is what the warning should say |
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| 16:56:28 | <yin> | shouldn't students learn `listToMaybe` and `drop 1` instead? |
| 16:57:23 | <EvanR> | those may both be incorrect in some cases |
| 16:57:49 | <yin> | no. head and tail are incorrect in some cases |
| 16:57:57 | <EvanR> | oh obviously |
| 16:58:03 | <EvanR> | but I disagree with "no" |
| 16:58:26 | <EvanR> | being partial doesn't make the always incorrect though |
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| 16:59:05 | <yin> | yeah i see what you mean. but i'm a big treating students as intelligent beings |
| 17:02:03 | <EvanR> | listToMaybe drop 1 head tail and since there are other "usual suspects" mentioned in this context, there ought to be a blog post collecting them all and sending them on a big budget battle against thanos or something |
| 17:03:04 | <EvanR> | more or less powerful and uniquely flawed in their own way, leading to quirky dialog |
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| 17:06:07 | <yin> | i'm playing with `ghci -XNoImplicitPrelude -ignore-dot-ghci` for "clean slate haskell". is there anyway to shave some more off it or is this it? |
| 17:08:09 | <yin> | can i get rid of GHC.Base? |
| 17:08:33 | <yin> | :P |
| 17:08:44 | <monochrom> | Everything is incorrect in some cases. |
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| 17:23:02 | <EvanR> | is that one of your tautologies? |
| 17:26:02 | <monochrom> | Heh. I came up with it just now. I'm too lazy to add it to my page. |
| 17:28:23 | <monochrom> | More seriously, I don't scaremonger against partial functions. The reason I deemphasize head-tail is that I scaremonger against XY problems instead. "if null xs then ... else ... head ... tail ..." is an XY problem, should just use pattern matching. |
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| 17:29:15 | <tomsmeding> | yin: how do you get GHC.Base in that? |
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| 17:46:55 | <yin> | I'm assuming i'm getting things like Num from GHC.Base |
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| 17:56:41 | <EvanR> | it seems that the SECD machine supports recursion with an instruction which destructively updates an environment record, so a letrec could be compiled into a thing that closes over an environment containing a placeholder, then when thing is located somewhere the location is burned into the placeholder place with setcar! or something |
| 17:57:50 | <EvanR> | I guess that's why the theoretical stuff on SECD machine I've seen ignores that instruction entirely |
| 17:58:57 | <xeno11> | I am getting an error of "failing to build" after cabal v2-run. Error code says "Missing dependency on a foregin library " and "Missing (or bad) libraries". pkg-config is not finding the libraries, or thinks they are bad, despite them being installed there. I recently changed distribution from debian "bookworm" to debian "testing" and at a similar |
| 17:58:58 | <xeno11> | time, the compilation stopped working. Any ideas why I am getting this error? |
| 18:00:00 | <EvanR> | someone on stack overflow reports a report where someone failed to implement this instruction in erlang which doesn't have a setcar! |
| 18:00:08 | <EvanR> | haskellers feeling that pain |
| 18:01:33 | <tomsmeding> | yin: if I open ghci with your flags than I have no Num? |
| 18:01:37 | <tomsmeding> | s/than/then/ |
| 18:01:50 | <tomsmeding> | you can't disable built-in syntax for numeric literals, if that's what you're after |
| 18:02:18 | <tomsmeding> | % :m |
| 18:02:18 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 18:02:21 | <tomsmeding> | % import Prelude () |
| 18:02:21 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 18:02:23 | <tomsmeding> | % :t 5 |
| 18:02:23 | <yahb2> | 5 :: forall {a}. GHC.Internal.Num.Num a => a |
| 18:02:37 | <tomsmeding> | yin: Num is not in scope here, so the response qualifies it |
| 18:02:49 | <tomsmeding> | % :m -- make prelude available again |
| 18:02:49 | <yahb2> | syntax: :module [+/-] [*]M1 ... [*]Mn |
| 18:02:51 | <tomsmeding> | % :m |
| 18:02:51 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
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| 18:03:26 | <EvanR> | I guess if you use the simplified SECD machine, you'd have to resort to Y combinators again |
| 18:03:53 | <tomsmeding> | xeno11: what library is it missing? What haskell package has this system dependency? |
| 18:05:00 | <EvanR> | correction the recursive value itself is stored at the placeholder, since environment contains values |
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| 18:10:32 | <yin> | tomsmeding: kind of can with NoRebindableSyntax |
| 18:10:43 | <tomsmeding> | without the No? |
| 18:10:52 | <tomsmeding> | but I guess, yes |
| 18:11:51 | <yin> | right |
| 18:11:58 | <yin> | oh and it depends on ghc version |
| 18:12:57 | <yin> | nvm i was wrote NoReb... |
| 18:13:17 | <yin> | s/was// |
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| 18:32:27 | <xeno11> | tomsmeding: As far as I can see no library is missing. But it is telling me the "Missing (or bad)" libraries are opendht-c and SDL2 |
| 18:33:17 | <tomsmeding> | xeno11: did you install the -dev packages for those libraries? |
| 18:33:29 | <tomsmeding> | do you have a related .pc file on your system? |
| 18:33:36 | <xeno11> | and then opendht-hs |
| 18:33:46 | <xeno11> | i do have the related .pc files |
| 18:33:54 | <tomsmeding> | are they in the pkg-config search path? |
| 18:34:00 | <xeno11> | and yes for sdl, let me try for opendht |
| 18:34:13 | <xeno11> | yes they are |
| 18:34:22 | <tomsmeding> | can pkg-config find them? |
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| 18:40:04 | <xeno11> | yes, with pkg-config --path. for opendht-c it shows "/usr/local/lib/pkgconfig/opendht-c.pc" but for sdl2 it shows "/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/pkgconfig/sdl2.pc" because i created a symlink (i placed the opendht repo in a different place) |
| 18:41:20 | <tomsmeding> | xeno11: in that case it's strange that cabal is complaining. Can you post the full error that cabal gives you? |
| 18:41:45 | <tomsmeding> | to be noted is that pkg-config, at least on my system, is case-sensitive: `pkg-config --path sdl2` works on my system by `pkg-config --path SDL2` does not |
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| 18:44:40 | <xeno11> | yes, i tried `pkg-config --path SDL2` because of the error message but it doesn't work for the same reason. `pkg-config --path sdl2` is what yielded the path above^ |
| 18:44:59 | <tomsmeding> | might it be that the cabal package specifies "SDL2" as the package name? |
| 18:45:05 | <tomsmeding> | in `pkg-config-depends` |
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| 18:48:01 | <xeno11> | https://paste.debian.net/1374521/ |
| 18:48:28 | <xeno11> | that's the error cabal gives just after cabal v2-run |
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| 18:50:23 | <tomsmeding> | xeno11: odd. Do you have a libSDL2.so? I guess that question can be answered using `pkg-config --libs sdl2` |
| 18:50:40 | <[exa]> | xeno11: I saw something similar recently, can you check if both of your libraries are in the pkg-config's full library listing? |
| 18:50:54 | <[exa]> | ok "recently" as in "this decade" but see |
| 18:51:09 | <tomsmeding> | (pkg-config --list-all) |
| 18:51:18 | <[exa]> | yap ^ thx |
| 18:51:44 | <tomsmeding> | also see if `cabal build --verbose` says anything useful (no need to use v2- since cabal 3.0) |
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| 18:52:43 | <[exa]> | also check that --modversion of the package is parseable by cabal, iirc that was what killed it in my case |
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| 19:09:38 | <EvanR> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/nihJV4Ug |
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| 19:15:45 | <xeno11> | tomsmeding: in `pkgconfig-depends`it specifies sdl2 as the package name |
| 19:16:41 | <xeno11> | `pkg-config --libs sdl2` yields "-lSDL2" |
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| 19:17:53 | <xeno11> | opendht-c and sdl2 both show up when i do the `pkg-config --list-all` |
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| 19:43:30 | <tomsmeding> | xeno11: any interesting info in `cabal build --verbose`? |
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| 19:49:46 | <monochrom> | EvanR: Yeah, one way to support recursion, more generally tying knots, is a mutable cell that you write once to when you've finished the setup. |
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| 19:51:23 | <monochrom> | Conversely! Robert Harper noted that memory comes from feedback loops. Mercury tubes, flip flops. |
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| 19:57:21 | <EvanR> | that makes sense but then I still have trouble with the semantics of the transition table |
| 19:57:48 | <EvanR> | it also doesn't help I have no idea how a letrec would get compiled to make use of these instructions |
| 19:57:59 | <EvanR> | but I guess that's a puzzle for tomorrow |
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| 20:05:32 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 20:06:42 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what does the runtime validation landscape look like in haskell? |
| 20:06:43 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> there's https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.21.0.0/docs/Control-Exception.html#v:assert ... |
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| 20:06:45 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> do you mean something else ? |
| 20:06:46 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm I was wondering if there was even a need to develop things like contracts libraries given haskell's sufficiently expressive type system |
| 20:06:49 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> there's Liquid Haskell, which is like contracts. But it's compile time I believe |
| 20:06:50 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> sm: but this definitely is part of runtime validation ty, had not encountered it before |
| 20:06:52 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm would be nice to have the solutions to the liquid haskell tutorial |
| 20:06:53 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> sm: ah neat! I keep hearing about it. today is the day I try it out |
| 20:06:55 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> anyone know how to do the exercise Vector Head in chapter 4 |
| 20:06:56 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ? |
| 20:06:59 | <haskellbridge> | <ozkutuk> That form might be easier to work with |
| 20:07:01 | <haskellbridge> | <ozkutuk> for example, "Data.Tree.pathsFromRoot" could be of use then |
| 20:07:02 | <haskellbridge> | <ozkutuk> (I mean, not isomorphic per se, but should be a sufficient form to work with since you seem to be only interested in the strings) |
| 20:07:04 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ozkutuk: hm I need the value and the end of the path in order to do validation, but that does make me think we can use the tree of strings to access the original datatype |
| 20:07:07 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ty for the idea! |
| 20:07:08 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> the idea is to have predicates that take a path in order to do validation at that path |
| 20:07:10 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> data Record a = MkRecordV [(String, Either a (Record a))] deriving Show |
| 20:07:11 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/iZbktTBScUYJbjkjdOGISIYE/YQOzohIwgLM (11 lines) |
| 20:07:13 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> whoops, the "Right" case here needs to "++" with "toPathVals MkRecordV xs" too |
| 20:08:05 | <EvanR> | whoa was haskell bridge off this whole time |
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| 20:08:55 | <EvanR> | to quote thor: ragnarok, "who took the sword!" (that unlocks the bifrost) |
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| 20:13:23 | <tomsmeding> | seems like a bunch of messages got lost, too |
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| 20:27:29 | <xeno11> | tomsmeding: I was looking but not exactly sure what to report on... i have the --verbose output here: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/e5bcf24f/ |
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| 20:39:21 | <tomsmeding> | xeno11: where is pkg-config located on your system? |
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| 20:41:00 | <tomsmeding> | on my system, cabal-3.10.3.0 (same version as you) first checks pkg-config and only _then_ starts actually configuring the package |
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| 20:42:23 | <tomsmeding> | on the other hand, cabal seems to find the version of the sdl2 pkg-config (2.32.4) just fine |
| 20:43:06 | <tomsmeding> | xeno11: can you post the output of `cabal build -v3`, as suggested in the error message? |
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| 21:26:38 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: huh I thought the room was sort of silent lol |
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| 21:58:10 | <xeno11> | tomsmeding: pkg-config is located at `/usr/bin/pkg-config` |
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| 21:59:51 | <xeno11> | here is the `cabal build -v3` output: https://dpaste.com/A78G4C9TQ |
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| 22:04:24 | <tomsmeding> | xeno11: "collect2: fatal error: cannot find ‘ld’" |
| 22:04:49 | <tomsmeding> | xeno11: I suspect that this is the actual error, and that cabal just misinterprets failure of gcc as something completely unrelated (and wrong) |
| 22:05:02 | <tomsmeding> | do you have a working gcc and ld? :p |
| 22:05:16 | <int-e> | note that ghc passes '-fuse-ld=gold' there |
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| 22:05:47 | <tomsmeding> | despite the only earlier occurrence of the string "gold" in that log being "Cannot find ld.gold on the path" |
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| 22:06:59 | <int-e> | ghc --info | grep gold |
| 22:07:05 | <int-e> | is likely to find gold ;-) |
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| 22:09:08 | <int-e> | it's funny (and annoying) though that cabal diagnoses this as a missing C library |
| 22:09:52 | <tomsmeding> | I guess cabal assumes that gcc always succeeds unless there was a linker error, and a linker error "always" means that one of the C libraries wasn't available |
| 22:10:28 | <tomsmeding> | to be fair I don't blame cabal for not trying to parse linker errors, but it would do well, perhaps, to pass on the error to the user instead of waiting until -v3 (not even -v, -v3!) to display it |
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| 22:12:18 | tomsmeding | is afk |
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| 22:14:31 | <zarek> | Hi, I already done beginner books about haskell and now I want to do something with Cardano, do you know how can I start? |
| 22:15:24 | <zarek> | And do I need to learn about some more abstractions? I know everything up to state monads, but I don't know gadts or arrows |
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| 22:35:17 | <EvanR> | zarek, dunno about cardano but would you be interested in game programming |
| 22:35:30 | <EvanR> | it is surely to make you collide with more abstractions |
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| 22:39:47 | <zarek> | EvanR: Yes, I'm also interested |
| 22:40:11 | <sim590> | int-e, tomsmeding: seems like ld.gold is deprecated apprently. But cabal still uses it by default? Shouldn't it stop to use it at some point? |
| 22:41:19 | <int-e> | sim590: my guess is that using ld.gold is baked into the ghc binary you're using. that's what the ghc --info comment was about |
| 22:42:23 | <int-e> | Or, technically, not the binary but the `settings` files it ships with. So if you feel adventerous you can change that. |
| 22:42:30 | <zarek> | EvanR: Would you recommend some library for it or blog post/book about programming game in haskell? I only today saw this video about programming game in haskell in haskell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MNTerD8IuI&list=PLcGKfGEEONaCyiY7-IV6boavjCIG7q1vd& |
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| 22:43:26 | <sim590> | int-e: So, it's something that would be likely to change by itself if GHC was upgraded, right? |
| 22:43:58 | <EvanR> | there is #haskell-game and HaskellGameDev discord, with its own links and references, though things have slowed down in the last few months |
| 22:44:09 | <int-e> | sim590: maybe. afaics you're using ghc-up so you're relying on that upstream's build configuration |
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| 22:44:25 | <sim590> | int-e: yep. |
| 22:44:32 | <zarek> | sim590: by any chance did you install ghc by pacman in arch linux? If yes, thank I suggest nuke everything and install everything from curl link |
| 22:44:57 | <int-e> | sim590: you can override the linker in your cabal config, that's probably the easier route for making progress right now |
| 22:45:28 | <int-e> | zarek: ironically that would likely use a linker that's actually installed |
| 22:45:44 | <int-e> | (the trouble is elsewhere) |
| 22:45:56 | <EvanR> | forwarding that link to the other channel looks interesting |
| 22:46:15 | <sim590> | zarek: One of my machines I use have arch and the other has debian. |
| 22:46:27 | <sim590> | But I actually didn't have any issue on Arch. |
| 22:47:06 | <sim590> | I only got issues with debian when dist-upgrading (same as xeno11). I guess that the `binutils-gold` was removed when we did a `dist-upgrade` and that confused everything. |
| 22:47:33 | <int-e> | zarek: it's irrelevant anyway: --with-ghc=/home/xkappel/.ghcup/bin/ghc |
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| 22:49:36 | <zarek> | I remember this is how I solved my problems with ghcup and rest of haskell, but if this isn't solution than I don't know |
| 22:52:00 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> hi zarek, cardano has lots of getting started and learning haskell resources doesn't it; we don't know them all here |
| 22:52:28 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> and, welcome |
| 22:52:30 | <int-e> | sim590: Anyway. The path of least resistance is to install ld.gold (it may be deprecated but it works as a linker). The next easiest idea is to tweak, hmm, ld-location I suppose in ~/.cabal/config. After that it's editing the settings file inside the ghc distribution and after that it's finding a "better" ghc package. |
| 22:52:55 | <int-e> | glhf |
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| 22:53:54 | <sim590> | int-e: isn't it possible to just pass an option to GHC to force not using ld.gold, but stick to plain ld ? |
| 22:54:25 | <sim590> | So we could just protect ourselves with an option in a `cabal.project` file or literally inside the cabal file. |
| 22:55:01 | <int-e> | sim590: which is what cabal would do if you instructed it accordingly, and doing it in the config file feels less painful than doing it on every invokation |
| 22:55:44 | <sim590> | int-e: It would not be in the invocation, but in a config file in the project repo. |
| 22:56:03 | <sim590> | I thought ourproject.cabal in the `ghc-options:` section. |
| 22:56:06 | <int-e> | it's a local configuration so putting it into the project is wrong |
| 22:57:11 | <int-e> | (and you'll run into this with *every* haskell project as long as you use this particular ghc, and probably other versions shipped with ghc-up too) |
| 22:57:11 | <sim590> | At least, we can put it in `cabal.project`, so it's not shipped anywhere. |
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| 22:57:51 | <int-e> | it really is a thing that pretty much unambiguously belongs in ~/.cabal/config |
| 22:58:03 | <int-e> | and not in some project-related file |
| 22:59:55 | <geekosaur> | it should probably go in ghc's settings file fwiw |
| 23:00:18 | <int-e> | sure but then you're bound to clash with ghc-up eventually |
| 23:00:31 | <xeno11> | tomsmeding:,int-e: thanks for the help, much appreciated |
| 23:00:58 | <xeno11> | tomsmeding: , int-e: * |
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| 23:29:38 | <monochrom> | Hrm, ld.gold is going away? That's a pity. If you reinstall GHC, the install script can pick up the fact that you don't have ld.gold, then initialize its settings file accordingly. |
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