Logs on 2025-05-14 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:14:47 | <sim590> | monochrom: really? Well, this is the curl installation way, but will ghcup do that also? I guess not as int-e suggested otherwise. |
| 01:17:44 | <sim590> | int-e: my main goal though is to make it so that any developer that wants to work on my project doesn't have to ask himself the same thing we asked ourselves just because ld.gold missing is silently reported in some fat log that you are gonna have trouble find at first. So, that's why I say it belongs in the repo since I am at the very least sure that `ld` should exist on the platform as it always |
| 01:17:46 | <sim590> | had. I've been using Linux for almost 15 years and I've never heard of `ld.gold`, so I think that the safest is to force `ld` for all developers who touch the project. |
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| 01:49:17 | <monochrom> | That road leads to docker images. Then you can full control of what runs on other people's computers. |
| 01:49:43 | <monochrom> | Hell, s/what runs on// |
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| 01:50:56 | <sim590> | I don't need to go there just yet... :) |
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| 01:54:50 | <monochrom> | GHC is about the only compiler that generates code that spams the linker to the point that ld.gnu is noticeably too slow and we need the asymptotically faster ld.gold. So it is natural that outside the Haskell community no one needs to talk about it. |
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| 01:59:48 | <monochrom> | But that was a long time ago, maybe 10 years? Since then, maybe GHC spams the linker less, maybe ld.gnu switched to a faster algorithm, I didn't follow the subsequent evolution, but no one talks about it again today. |
| 02:01:32 | <monochrom> | Or maybe simply computers became exponentially faster so there is no longer a need for any non-brute-force algorithm! |
| 02:02:59 | <monochrom> | (P.S. I will be teaching Curry to my students, so they can write moar brute-force search with fewer lines of code because Curry has brute-force-search semantics!) |
| 02:05:05 | <sim590> | I guess that's a bit saner for the programmer soul in some respect. brute-force, but less many lines of code at least! |
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| 02:07:59 | <sim590> | It seems like I'm able to pass -optc -fuse-ld=bfd for instance. Since it's one of the documented values in the GCC manpage. But, I can't seem to make it back to default since default would be the absence of any -fuse-ld flags, but GHC has it's own and I want to override it. |
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| 03:37:16 | <sim590> | Related to all of this, for ghcup users: https://github.com/haskell/ghcup-hs/issues/1032. |
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| 07:14:04 | <hellwolf> | bridge is down. I can post in both side :) |
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| 08:40:10 | <esnos> | Hi, I know this is not haskell related question, but if I want to log messages from other channel for future reading when I'm not connected, should I install znc on server, or there is there other way to log messages when I'm not connected? I'm new to irc and it's much harder to grasp then matrix or discord |
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| 08:41:43 | <ski> | you make sure you have a client running, on some machine that stays connected |
| 08:42:52 | <ski> | that could be a bouncer (like ZNC,&c.), or could be a terminal client, running under GNU Screen / TMux. there are also some things, like IRCCloud which provide a bouncer for you |
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| 08:43:29 | <TMA> | esnos: there is nothing on the IRC server that keeps the messages for you. you need an always connected client. znc is just one option for an always-on client |
| 08:43:53 | <TMA> | esnos: ski said it faster |
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| 08:54:48 | <esnos> | So if I just use erc on server, than it will be the same as using znc? |
| 08:55:42 | <ski> | more or less. are you running emacs daemon ? |
| 08:56:00 | <ski> | (or starting emacs server) |
| 08:56:05 | <esnos> | I don't have server yet |
| 08:56:17 | <ski> | i mean like `M-x server-start' |
| 08:56:22 | <esnos> | On my pc I don't use emacs daemon |
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| 08:57:23 | <ski> | hm, i don't recall testing how that behaves, if you try to connect to it non-locally, forwarding X, and then the connection breaks |
| 08:59:12 | <esnos> | But why just opening emacs and openning erc on server won't work? |
| 09:00:07 | <ski> | (i do recall some time, opening a graphical frame via `emacsclient -c', under X, and X crashing, the whole Emacs session (which was running under GNU Screen, started before X) crashed, annoyingly. dunno whether that would be the case with `emacsclient -nw' (not running under GNU Screen or TMux) under X, and then X crashing; now how doing that remotely might affect it) |
| 09:00:56 | <ski> | because you might have to disconnect from the server (e.g. when turning off local machine), and later want to reconnect and check how your IRC session is doing |
| 09:01:55 | <ski> | so, you would like to run it, in a way that doesn't terminate, in case the connection breaks |
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| 09:02:29 | <esnos> | Okay |
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| 09:02:46 | <ski> | presumably you can do that with emacs daemon |
| 09:02:56 | ski | uses GNU Screen, for this |
| 09:03:31 | <esnos> | I will than look into emacs daemon for logging and into znc, thank you ski for help |
| 09:04:11 | <ski> | (oh, and iirc, SystemD, at least some years ago, liked to kill processes that you had started in the background, to not be terminated on disconnect/hangup. so if your server has that, you might need to convince it to not kill your session, after you disconnect) |
| 09:05:12 | ski | hasn't used ERC .. better ask #emacs or #erc about specifics of that |
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| 09:26:27 | <tomsmeding> | esnos: this is probably stating the obvious, but some channels, like this one, keep public logs -- see the /topic |
| 09:27:49 | <esnos> | tomsmeding: I know, but I want to set it up myself and some channels, like #emacs, doesn't keep public logs |
| 09:43:04 | <__monty__> | ski: It looks like you try to capitalize things correctly so you might be interested, https://brand.systemd.io/#:~:text=Spelling |
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| 09:51:12 | <ski> | mhm. i spell it "Emacs", unless i'm specifically talking about the executable. ditton with XTerm, &c. |
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| 12:20:17 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: To what conclusion did you arrive on the topic of GDPR regarding log collection in this channel? |
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| 13:06:17 | <yin> | does gdpr apply? what personally identifiable information are we talking about? |
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| 13:13:04 | <yin> | also i'm pretty sure that logging as a qol improvement over basic irc functionality qualifies as legitimate interest |
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| 13:20:11 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: if I recall correctly, the last proper conversation/thoughts on the topic were with you |
| 13:24:04 | <tomsmeding> | ircbrowse certainly processes data, and explicit consent is not acquired before it does so |
| 13:24:36 | <tomsmeding> | the question would be whether the data it collects concerns _personal data_, and whether ircbrowse is materially different from every random irc client that logs locally |
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| 13:26:36 | <tomsmeding> | that is to say: a user on the irc network certainly consents to their messages being broadcasted to the other participants in the channel |
| 13:27:07 | <tomsmeding> | and we may even be able to say that the user consents to other clients storing said messages, because this is completely standard on irc |
| 13:32:56 | <tomsmeding> | I don't think there's a clear-cut definition of "legitimate interest" in the GDPR text |
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| 13:33:13 | <JuanDaugherty> | it's a category error isn it? |
| 13:33:34 | <JuanDaugherty> | the data and ops of irc vs what gdpr is meant to interdict |
| 13:34:21 | <JuanDaugherty> | also while libera is in sweden and subject to gdpr i doubt most of the users are |
| 13:35:09 | <tomsmeding> | is it? Some of its users are in Europe (I am), and in any case, I'd guess that the right to have one's data deleted would apply |
| 13:35:28 | <JuanDaugherty> | sites posting public logs of channels are subject to development of better ways of doing |
| 13:35:55 | <JuanDaugherty> | for some will be fine for most prolly needs behind some authentication |
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| 13:36:09 | <yin> | logging for personal is inconsequent wrt gdpr |
| 13:36:11 | <tomsmeding> | can you cite some GDPR text that supports the existence of ircbrowse as-is? |
| 13:36:18 | <JuanDaugherty> | *needs to be behind |
| 13:36:19 | <yin> | *use |
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| 13:40:40 | <JuanDaugherty> | also sites wilh logs but no search function os i gotta google make me frown |
| 13:40:56 | <JuanDaugherty> | *so i gotta |
| 13:41:13 | <hellwolf> | A solution to a non-problem: a GDPR moderator; you can't speak until you msg with a "yes". |
| 13:41:38 | <hellwolf> | probably doesn't work for IRC protocol |
| 13:42:44 | <tomsmeding> | hellwolf: this could technically be implemented with a bot and channel rules that mean you can only speak if you have the +voice mode |
| 13:43:05 | <hellwolf> | interesting |
| 13:43:06 | <tomsmeding> | but doing so would be completely missing the point :p |
| 13:43:33 | <hellwolf> | I am good at missing points |
| 13:43:39 | <tomsmeding> | no, not you |
| 13:43:59 | <tomsmeding> | implementing said system would be, I don't know the appropriate English phrase for this |
| 13:44:16 | <tomsmeding> | but if that is how we can have public logging, then I'd rather not have public logging |
| 13:44:50 | <tomsmeding> | hellwolf: you didn't miss the point because you said "non-problem" |
| 13:44:57 | <hellwolf> | | Third-party data sharing under GDPR requires organizations to obtain explicit and informed consent from individuals before sharing their personal data with external parties. |
| 13:45:11 | <tomsmeding> | this is very much a non-problem until someone gets offended, and in that case I'd say "tell me and I'll remove your messages from the database" |
| 13:45:20 | JuanDaugherty | is now known as ColinRobinson |
| 13:45:30 | <tomsmeding> | hellwolf: read what I wrote ~25min ago |
| 13:46:14 | <hellwolf> | PII |
| 13:46:21 | <hellwolf> | whatever that means. |
| 13:46:23 | <tomsmeding> | the interesting questions are not regarding consent (ircbrowse does not acquire consent at all, users are just _informed_ via the topic and a welcome message when they join) but regarding whether this classifies as personal data |
| 13:46:31 | <hellwolf> | I don't suppose you have a PII filtering anyways |
| 13:46:42 | <tomsmeding> | what is PII filtering? |
| 13:47:20 | <hellwolf> | if the text contains any PII, you mask it with "****" in the software |
| 13:47:34 | <tomsmeding> | that's impossible |
| 13:47:44 | <hellwolf> | I know |
| 13:47:46 | <tomsmeding> | :p |
| 13:47:58 | <hellwolf> | but it's work of lawyers |
| 13:48:14 | <tomsmeding> | same as before: if that'd be required, I'd rather not have public logging |
| 13:48:27 | <hellwolf> | that'd a be a loss to the humanity |
| 13:48:35 | <hellwolf> | a sect of it, at least. :p |
| 13:48:45 | <hellwolf> | the mythical Haskellers |
| 13:48:45 | <int-e> | This is way into "it's not a problem until sombody makes it a problem" territory. |
| 13:48:52 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 13:49:10 | <EvanR> | is it impossible? IRC already replaces your password with **** if you type it |
| 13:49:14 | <EvanR> | try it |
| 13:49:16 | <hellwolf> | also, in principle, GDPR fine is proportional to the revenue |
| 13:49:33 | tomsmeding | . o O ( https://bash-org-archive.com/?244321 ) |
| 13:49:42 | <tomsmeding> | ircbrowse has negative revenue |
| 13:49:42 | <int-e> | There's PII there, no doubt (IP adresses, and I suspect the status of nicknames is unclear enough that if you ask two lawyers you'll get three opinions) |
| 13:49:59 | <hellwolf> | I am a male |
| 13:50:01 | <hellwolf> | that's PII |
| 13:50:04 | <hellwolf> | sort of |
| 13:50:12 | <tomsmeding> | and yet you willingly broadcasted it to 535 users |
| 13:50:15 | <tomsmeding> | well, 534 |
| 13:50:17 | <int-e> | it's public, it's not just private use... if somebody wants to make this a problem, they can |
| 13:50:24 | <hellwolf> | because I will use that to sue you |
| 13:50:35 | <hellwolf> | you didn't protect my PII |
| 13:50:48 | <int-e> | hellwolf: in this particular context I don't think your informed consent is in doubt ;-) |
| 13:51:05 | <hellwolf> | I may be unhinged and change my mind in 20256 |
| 13:51:08 | <hellwolf> | *2026 |
| 13:51:20 | <EvanR> | or 20256 depending on what happens next |
| 13:51:22 | <tomsmeding> | hellwolf: then you invoke the right to have your data deleted |
| 13:51:43 | <hellwolf> | I have my rights to download it as a zip file to |
| 13:51:45 | <hellwolf> | *too |
| 13:51:46 | <tomsmeding> | invoking GDPR on the whole of irc logging via the legal system would be an "I hate humanity" move |
| 13:52:05 | <hellwolf> | it's not hard to reach that mental state nowadays |
| 13:52:08 | <tomsmeding> | there are other ways you can also enact your hate of humanity, if such exists |
| 13:52:39 | <yin> | if i announce my real name and address, that's PII and according to GDPR it would be subject to right to erasure. however, my request can be denied if you can argue that ircbrowse is legitimate interest, which it is |
| 13:52:46 | <tomsmeding> | hellwolf: if you send me an official letter requesting your personal data stored in ircbrowse, I will happily send it to you |
| 13:52:55 | <hellwolf> | with wax? |
| 13:52:59 | <hellwolf> | sealed with wax? |
| 13:53:05 | <int-e> | yin: nah there's no legitimate interest for keeping that record |
| 13:53:06 | <tomsmeding> | yin: based on what GDPR text would it be legitimate interest? |
| 13:53:08 | <hellwolf> | do you accept animal fat based wax. |
| 13:53:15 | <tomsmeding> | hellwolf: hell no |
| 13:53:22 | <yin> | tomsmeding: again, gdpr is not concerned with logging for personal use |
| 13:53:36 | <int-e> | anyway |
| 13:53:49 | <hellwolf> | anyways |
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| 13:53:58 | <tomsmeding> | this is not just personal use, it's public :p |
| 13:54:06 | <tomsmeding> | but arguing about this is rather futile |
| 13:54:10 | <int-e> | I expect that if it becomes more than an occasional deletion request tomsmeding will just kill the service |
| 13:54:13 | <tomsmeding> | as int-e has been trying to say repeateedly |
| 13:54:16 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 13:54:42 | <EvanR> | what instigated this line of inquiry into GDPR |
| 13:54:52 | <hellwolf> | boredom |
| 13:55:00 | <EvanR> | did someone try to take down ircbrowse |
| 13:55:06 | <tomsmeding> | https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2025/05/14?id=1550780#trid1550780 |
| 13:55:28 | <yin> | tomsmeding: that's a question for the lawyers when and if someone raises a problem with ircbrowse. until then, it's not a concern |
| 13:55:41 | <tomsmeding> | that we're agreeing on, for sure |
| 13:55:46 | <EvanR> | ok so a hypothetical wrapped in a for instance |
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| 13:57:16 | <hellwolf> | data Anyways = forall a. Hypothetical => MkAnyways a |
| 13:57:23 | <hellwolf> | data Anyways = forall a. Hypothetical a => MkAnyways a |
| 13:57:37 | <EvanR> | ewwww datatype contexts |
| 13:57:43 | <hellwolf> | it's not |
| 13:57:45 | <tomsmeding> | no, this is not a data type context |
| 13:57:58 | <tomsmeding> | it's a context on the constructor |
| 13:58:11 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/datatype_contexts.html#extension-DatatypeContexts |
| 13:58:18 | <hellwolf> | data Anyways where MkAnyways :: forall a. Hypothetical a => Anyways |
| 13:58:27 | <hellwolf> | if you are a hip Haskellers like GDPRSyntax |
| 13:58:31 | <hellwolf> | Sorry, GADTSyntax |
| 13:58:33 | <EvanR> | oh I didn't even know you could do that |
| 13:58:34 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
| 13:58:38 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: don't |
| 13:58:45 | <tomsmeding> | > This is widely considered a misfeature |
| 13:58:50 | <EvanR> | ya |
| 13:59:50 | <int-e> | yin: a clear-cut legitimate interest would be "we need to keep a record of your payment info and purchase record for 5 years to comply with anti money laundering laws" |
| 14:00:07 | <int-e> | "this is inconvenient" isn't enough. |
| 14:00:11 | <yin> | instance GDPR IrcBrowse where legitimateInterest = undefined |
| 14:00:34 | <tomsmeding> | Warning: no definition given for methods: personalData, controller |
| 14:01:43 | <hellwolf> | alright, gonna learn how to write a similar thing to MkLenses |
| 14:01:46 | <yin> | thirParty :: a |
| 14:01:46 | <hellwolf> | makeLenses |
| 14:02:01 | hellwolf | duck |
| 14:02:06 | <tomsmeding> | don't drown in TH |
| 14:03:00 | <int-e> | hellwolf: or rabbit? https://www.brainonfire.net/blog/2022/04/11/what-is-parser-mismatch/attach/Kaninchen_und_Ente.svg |
| 14:03:42 | <yin> | does an IP adress by itself (with no other PII associated with it) constitute PII? |
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| 14:04:12 | <hellwolf> | int-e: classic. |
| 14:04:28 | tomsmeding | will leave the gdpr discussion for what it is and wait for a takedown request, if it ever comes (I hope not) |
| 14:04:46 | <int-e> | yin: Ask a lawyer. But IP adresses can be used to link online activities. |
| 14:05:27 | <yin> | not with certainty |
| 14:05:44 | <int-e> | so? |
| 14:05:55 | <int-e> | ... |
| 14:06:04 | <int-e> | sorry, I should stop too, this isn't going anywhere and IANAL |
| 14:06:06 | <yin> | fair point |
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| 14:31:17 | <hellwolf> | actually TH is a pleasant to work with with QuasiQuotes |
| 14:31:25 | <hellwolf> | am I crazy? |
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| 14:38:42 | <sprout> | certified |
| 14:42:39 | <EvanR> | well QQ is cool and all but |
| 14:46:08 | <EvanR> | compilation times |
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| 14:54:08 | <yin> | is there any way we can parameterize data constructors on pattern matches? |
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| 15:12:16 | <EvanR> | say what |
| 15:14:49 | <hellwolf> | I didn't understand. |
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| 17:24:33 | <Square> | What is a good approach building a multi library project with nix? It seems cabal 3's "multiple libraries per cabal file" doesn't play well with nix. Which leads me to believe it's a better bet to keep separate cabal file per library? |
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| 17:25:48 | <monochrom> | I am not a nix lawyer, but I'm under the impression that nix is scriptable so it is just a matter of moar scripting to make it work with/for anything. |
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| 17:28:44 | <Square> | You just convinced my to build my own build tool =D |
| 17:28:50 | <Square> | s/my/me/ |
| 17:30:38 | <monochrom> | At least you aren't making your own language. Oh wait. |
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| 17:37:53 | <EvanR> | a datatype is just a [possibly dumb] language |
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| 17:41:18 | <monochrom> | a language is just a data type. >:) |
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| 17:42:27 | <yushyin> | Square: maybe #haskell:nixos.org (matrix) has an answer |
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| 17:43:17 | <Square> | yushyin, Good idea. I'll try that |
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| 17:51:38 | <Leary> | Square: https://github.com/input-output-hk/haskell.nix |
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| 17:53:25 | <yin> | in an arbitrary arithmetic system, something i call multiplication doesn't have to have an inherent relationship with something i call addition? |
| 17:54:31 | <EvanR> | in an arbitrary ring it does |
| 17:55:18 | <EvanR> | what's an arbitrary arithmetic system |
| 17:55:57 | <yin> | sure. some arithmetic system i decide to create just for fun |
| 17:56:14 | <monochrom> | I don't know what "arbitrary arithmetic system" means. But for a ring like EvanR said, * distributes over +, also +'s identity becomes *'s zero. |
| 17:56:59 | <EvanR> | oh I answered my own question |
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| 17:57:12 | <EvanR> | Num class <- arbitrary arithmetic system |
| 17:57:52 | <monochrom> | I was hoping that there were a reason the wording was not simply "Num instance". |
| 17:58:13 | <yin> | a ring is a formal structure that may not exist in my fantasy arithmetic system |
| 17:58:52 | <EvanR> | so your arithmetic system isn't just for arithmetic but for defining additional structure, like Peano Arithmetic |
| 17:59:02 | <monochrom> | May I tell you a true story about homebrew vocabulary that the inventor thought intuitive but in reality no one else knows what it means? |
| 17:59:14 | <yin> | monochrom: please :) |
| 17:59:33 | <yin> | EvanR: can be |
| 18:00:08 | <monochrom> | My friend worked as tech support for small companies. One day he was upgrading software versions for a small company. Everyone there asked him "does it still support 1048?". Guess what 1048 means. |
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| 18:01:53 | <yin> | we need a clue |
| 18:02:31 | <yin> | which kind of software? |
| 18:02:32 | <monochrom> | My friend was given no clue. Everyone there said "1048" as if it were standard. That's my point. |
| 18:02:32 | <EvanR> | if multiplication doesn't distribute over addition, and multiplication has no 1, then I will perhaps want my money back |
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| 18:02:54 | <monochrom> | But "it" = the new software version |
| 18:02:57 | <yin> | EvanR: yeah maybe there's no point in calling it multiplication |
| 18:03:09 | <EvanR> | anything other behavior I have heard might be acceptable in a group |
| 18:03:12 | <EvanR> | or monoid |
| 18:03:22 | <EvanR> | and somebody could abuse it and call the operation multiplication |
| 18:04:02 | <Angelz> | hi lambdabot |
| 18:04:26 | <yin> | monochrom: 1048 is traffic control in police radio 10-codes |
| 18:04:36 | <monochrom> | People even say "monad multiplication" for join, so I think everyone is already abusing the word "multiplication". |
| 18:04:46 | <Angelz> | :) |
| 18:04:49 | <monochrom> | 1048 = 1024x768 monitors |
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| 18:05:46 | <EvanR> | join (pure action) = action |
| 18:05:55 | <EvanR> | join (action pure) = action |
| 18:05:57 | <EvanR> | checks out |
| 18:06:11 | <yin> | monochrom: 1024 * 768 = 1048 checks out |
| 18:06:40 | <yin> | for some definition of multiplication :) |
| 18:06:57 | <EvanR> | 1024x768 - 2x76 = 1048 |
| 18:07:25 | <xerox> | > 1024 + (768 / 32) |
| 18:07:26 | <lambdabot> | 1048.0 |
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| 18:07:38 | <yin> | are we playing countdown |
| 18:07:47 | <monochrom> | numerology |
| 18:08:04 | <xerox> | totally |
| 18:08:11 | <EvanR> | my question is true for sets of chars |
| 18:08:15 | <EvanR> | my equation |
| 18:09:21 | <EvanR> | > "question" \\ "equation" |
| 18:09:23 | <lambdabot> | "s" |
| 18:09:33 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: what on earth is that logic |
| 18:09:38 | <monochrom> | charactology |
| 18:10:49 | <monochrom> | homebrew abbreviation plus presuming that everyone thinks up the same thing. |
| 18:11:01 | <tomsmeding> | yin: re your arithmetic system: depends on what you mean by "arithmetic system" :p |
| 18:11:12 | <EvanR> | that's what I wanted to know |
| 18:11:42 | <tomsmeding> | if an "arithmetic system" is just some structure with two binary operations called (+) and (*), then, well, do as you please |
| 18:11:47 | <EvanR> | if 1 * 1 = 2 in your system then calling it multiplication might get your a spot on joe rogan |
| 18:12:29 | <tomsmeding> | yin: if you want any sort of compatibility with standard algebra, you'll have to be more precise about exactly what compatibility you want |
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| 18:13:12 | <tomsmeding> | in particular, in the context of Haskell, as stated, Num instances are generally supposed to be rings, which brings along a variety of expected properties |
| 18:13:24 | <Square> | ? 1024 ∨ (768»5) = 1048. Obvious |
| 18:14:47 | <tomsmeding> | > 1024 + 2^4 + 2^3 -- 1024/768 is a 4/3 ratio |
| 18:14:48 | <lambdabot> | 1048 |
| 18:14:52 | <monochrom> | I agree most with EvanR's take. An abbreviation simply needs to randomly delete some characters here and there. It is a string operation not an arithmetic operation. |
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| 18:17:54 | <EvanR> | so Num is morally a ring but it's not the law. Or else Double would not be a Num |
| 18:18:44 | <EvanR> | > "1024x768" \\ "2x76" |
| 18:18:45 | <lambdabot> | "1048" |
| 18:18:56 | <EvanR> | stable |
| 18:19:07 | <tomsmeding> | I like yhow that works both with \\ and with - |
| 18:19:09 | <tomsmeding> | *how |
| 18:19:28 | <EvanR> | > 1024*768 - 2*76 |
| 18:19:29 | <lambdabot> | 786280 |
| 18:19:32 | <EvanR> | shoot |
| 18:19:41 | <EvanR> | I would have to start questioning reality |
| 18:19:46 | <tomsmeding> | you deceived me |
| 18:19:53 | <tomsmeding> | 20:06 <EvanR> 1024x768 - 2x76 = 1048 |
| 18:19:57 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 18:20:07 | <tomsmeding> | you think I actually mentally calculate that |
| 18:20:22 | <monochrom> | There was "<EvanR> my equestion is true for sets of chars" so there was that. |
| 18:20:38 | tomsmeding | just can't read |
| 18:21:01 | <EvanR> | can't read can't 'rithmetic. write only |
| 18:23:08 | <monochrom> | I don't like to scaremonger about Double not being a ring. It is close to being a ring to the largest extent given the constraint of bounded precision. |
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| 18:23:45 | <tomsmeding> | plus some practicalities like NaN |
| 18:23:51 | <tomsmeding> | impracticalities? |
| 18:23:55 | <EvanR> | all you have to do is prove, using that assumption, that your results are (as) close to being correct exact |
| 18:24:10 | <EvanR> | which I'm not good at |
| 18:24:31 | <EvanR> | and you need a lot of different proofs since in general it's false |
| 18:25:04 | <tomsmeding> | arriving at interval arithmetic again |
| 18:25:09 | <EvanR> | i know! |
| 18:25:27 | <tomsmeding> | I know you know :) |
| 18:26:53 | <EvanR> | the Unum guy's old talks has a lot of funny "test" expressions involving reals |
| 18:27:21 | <EvanR> | where he puts floats and unums in to see which fails miserably |
| 18:27:55 | <EvanR> | these expressions ignore numerical analysis best practices |
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| 18:28:42 | <EvanR> | which would be nice |
| 18:30:14 | <EvanR> | John Gustafson |
| 18:30:53 | <yin> | so according to internet culture, Double is a Parker Ring |
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| 19:05:56 | <yin> | shouldn't i expect ghc to disambiguate unwrap here https://paste.jrvieira.com/1747249530586 ? |
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| 19:10:55 | <yin> | we can deduce by `(>) :: n -> n -> n` that `(Add n > Add m) :: Add n` |
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| 19:20:00 | <int-e> | https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/disambiguate_record_fields.html may do the trick |
| 19:21:32 | <monochrom> | It is an extension to auto-determine which unwrap you mean from context. |
| 19:21:41 | <int-e> | hmm, but that's only for record *updates* right |
| 19:21:48 | <int-e> | (I've never tried to use it) |
| 19:22:00 | <monochrom> | Haskell 2010 simply says "I give up". |
| 19:22:11 | <Leary> | IIRC GHC will only disambiguate syntactically, not by type. |
| 19:22:26 | <yin> | according to the docs, DisambiguateRecordFields is implied by DuplicateRecordFields |
| 19:22:29 | <int-e> | generally, disambiguating based on types looks like a pretty good way to make type checking blow up exponentially |
| 19:22:57 | <int-e> | yin: right so it's just for matching and updates |
| 19:23:03 | <int-e> | not for using the accessor as a funciton |
| 19:23:06 | int-e | shrugs |
| 19:23:20 | <int-e> | as I said, I never tried to use this extension |
| 19:23:47 | <yin> | not even with `unwrap ((Add n > Add m) :: Add Nat)` this works |
| 19:24:04 | <yin> | oh well |
| 19:24:21 | <yin> | class Unwrappable where ... |
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| 19:26:12 | <yin> | nope |
| 19:26:18 | yin | scratched head |
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| 19:26:29 | <monochrom> | Type-directed name resolution: https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2010-November/086220.html |
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| 19:27:39 | <yin> | eh |
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| 19:30:49 | <monochrom> | Even Haskell 2010 is bad enough: |
| 19:30:52 | <monochrom> | > fmap fmap fmap (+ 1) [Just 1, Just 2, Just 3] |
| 19:30:53 | <lambdabot> | [Just 2,Just 3,Just 4] |
| 19:31:01 | <yin> | can i `class Unwrappable w n where ...` or should i use a fundep `class Unwrappable w n | w -> n where ...` ? |
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| 19:32:38 | <monochrom> | You know what, may I suggest just using lens? |
| 19:33:11 | <int-e> | > (.) fmap fmap (+ 1) [Just 1, Just 2, Just 3] |
| 19:33:13 | <lambdabot> | [Just 2,Just 3,Just 4] |
| 19:35:28 | <yin> | monochrom: i avoid lens at all cost. just by personal preference |
| 19:35:58 | <monochrom> | But you are on the road to reinvent lens. |
| 19:36:12 | <monochrom> | err, reinventing. I hate English. |
| 19:37:01 | <yin> | that's great, if i can learn something along the way |
| 19:37:07 | <yin> | i'm just experimenting with haskell |
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| 19:38:26 | <yin> | right now i'm learning about functional dependencies, something i never bothered to explore deeply because i never came across a situation that asked for it |
| 19:38:44 | <yin> | so i'm having fun i guess |
| 19:40:16 | <EvanR> | without fun you're only doing ctional programming |
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| 19:45:07 | <JuanDaugherty> | right that's why i call it "fun ding" the opposite of the homonym in the capitalism |
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| 19:47:27 | <yin> | is this ok? https://paste.jrvieira.com/1747252027073 |
| 19:49:33 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
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| 20:11:52 | <EvanR> | well thank the LLM for this: Matches Haskell's general philosophy: "crash less, compose more". |
| 20:12:15 | <EvanR> | is this some kind of spin on erlang crash early crash often |
| 20:13:03 | <monochrom> | abstract early, abstract often |
| 20:13:27 | <monochrom> | use Kan extensions for everything >:) |
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| 20:21:26 | <[exa]> | is there an Ixed instance for vectors somewhere in packages? |
| 20:21:33 | <[exa]> | (or a reason why I can't find it?) |
| 20:22:46 | <[exa]> | (oh btw I mean the Ixed from microlens) |
| 20:25:51 | <monochrom> | microlens-platform depends on both microlens and vector. Perhaps it is that. |
| 20:26:24 | <monochrom> | I feel sorry for your computer. This rebuilds everything again. |
| 20:27:03 | <[exa]> | hm true, I didn't click it because I thought it would just be all other packages together |
| 20:27:51 | <[exa]> | ok well, license is copypastable, let's copy with a notice |
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| 20:28:51 | <monochrom> | Wait, you're going to fork it? :) |
| 20:29:02 | <[exa]> | I'll make a note there :D |
| 20:29:11 | <[exa]> | that eventually I should depend on microlens-platform :D |
| 20:29:13 | <monochrom> | err nevermind, you just copy-paste the 5 lines of code you want. |
| 20:29:34 | <monochrom> | Now I feel sorry for your lawyer. >:) |
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| 20:30:59 | <[exa]> | our lawyer is obsessed with the fact that we could opensource something without patenting it first, which is apparently a terrible loss |
| 20:31:38 | <[exa]> | the copypaste is not the reason to be sorry :D |
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| 20:32:07 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Can something thats patented even be opensource |
| 20:32:07 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> That doesnt seem to make sense |
| 20:32:37 | <[exa]> | tbh they think that's OK |
| 20:33:03 | <[exa]> | regardless, I don't think it makes any sense at all :D |
| 20:33:17 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Like, the point of open source and free software are the four fundamental freedoms and a patent violates them |
| 20:33:22 | <monochrom> | Now I feel bad about the lawyer of your lawyer. >:) |
| 20:33:29 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> But ig its a different legal system? |
| 20:34:30 | <[exa]> | I didn't imply that the thoughts of the lawyer are following any legal system :D |
| 20:34:42 | <[exa]> | </lawyer_complaints> |
| 20:35:40 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Ik im just trying to wrap my head against their thought process :P |
| 20:35:42 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> And im failing |
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| 20:37:37 | <[exa]> | yes, like, don't. it makes no sense. :D |
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| 20:40:27 | <[exa]> | ah |
| 20:41:28 | <[exa]> | the Ixed in microlens returns a traversal (because they have no prisms etc), so for vectors it gives "no instance for Monoid Float" etc |
| 20:41:41 | <[exa]> | ok good that's probably explaining why no one uses the instance. |
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| 21:25:05 | <EvanR> | patents advertise something cool that you're not allowed to use, open source is something cool you're allowed to use |
| 21:25:28 | <EvanR> | I made them diametrically opposite |
| 21:26:33 | <EvanR> | but apparently software patents defy all logic so maybe it's compatible after all |
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| 21:52:47 | <haskellbridge> | <yin> parents and open source are not mutually exclusive |
| 21:54:57 | <haskellbridge> | <yin> i meant patents but both are true :D |
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| 22:54:57 | <EvanR> | huzzah the actually working this time abstract machine https://paste.tomsmeding.com/jy4QOplV tested fact(5) using basic version and tail recursive version with accumulating parameter |
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| 23:03:11 | <EvanR> | to compile a variable, load it from the environment. to compile a non-recursive let, store something in the environment. to compile a lambda, create a closure with body code and the relevant part of current environment. to compile function application, call a closure with its env prepended by arguments |
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| 23:04:21 | <EvanR> | supports a recursive let binding a lambda special case, by creating a closure with itself placed in its own environment |
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| 23:08:42 | <EvanR> | no need for mutation (in the transition table) |
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