Logs on 2025-05-15 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 04:38:39 | <EvanR> | serendipitous use for RWS monad, since the core transition is given as step :: Instr -> VM -> VM and not monadic, but it then can't PRINT anything... split it into R=big vector of instructions, S=VM, W=the output which is used in the PRINT case. Other instructions use modify (step instr) |
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| 05:45:23 | <octorez> | Hi guys! |
| 05:45:55 | <octorez> | I'm not sure what this is, I was referred here by "Learn You a Haskell for Great Good!" |
| 05:46:03 | <octorez> | Is this like Discord? |
| 05:46:10 | <octorez> | But anonymous? |
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| 05:50:38 | <mauke> | octorez: hi |
| 05:51:11 | <mauke> | I'm not sure what exactly discord is, but IRC is the original internet text chat |
| 05:51:46 | <mauke> | (and by original I mean it is older than the web) |
| 05:52:27 | <mauke> | ah, I see you're using the web chat frontend |
| 05:54:42 | <mauke> | octorez: I guess the answer is: yes, basically, but we don't have voice/video calls, images, reactions, threads, or message history :-) |
| 05:55:20 | <mauke> | (except this channel does keep logs; see link in /topic) |
| 05:55:44 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> but, unlike Discord this system is free and not profit motivated |
| 05:56:15 | <mauke> | ... and that was someone from Matrix |
| 05:56:53 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yes, you can also access it via the more Discord-like (but free and decentralised) Matrix, a newer chat system |
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| 05:57:04 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> glad we cleared that up :) |
| 05:57:19 | <mauke> | :-( |
| 05:57:40 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> octorez is warming up a better client I'm sure |
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| 05:58:53 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> https://sayo-hs.github.io/blog/heftia/heftia-part-1-1/ |
| 05:58:53 | <haskellbridge> | I am bullish on this announcement. I like first-principle based approaches. |
| 06:00:14 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> hah, if only we could invest in effects libraries |
| 06:01:07 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> > Today, the community seeks a definitive solution that ends the cycle of migration hell. |
| 06:01:13 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> famous last words! |
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| 06:02:14 | <mauke> | https://xkcd.com/927/ |
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| 06:04:33 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I know! Until one that does make a leap. I have a good feeling of heftia |
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| 06:08:02 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> "Performance always has room for improvement, whereas correctness improvements are often impossible due to foundational interface compatibility. " |
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| 06:12:04 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> "On the other hand, heftia directly implements categorical foundations described in academic papers. What I did was simply translate the types written in Agda from the papers into Haskell, confirm various isomorphisms through equational reasoning." |
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| 06:12:59 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> https://sayo-hs.github.io/blog/heftia/heftia-part-1-3/ |
| 06:13:00 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/aPfSZruSgxsHgviwfxXfMlWR/T7CzxfQNpDA (3 lines) |
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| 06:49:39 | <monochrom> | EvanR: I know of one more way to support recursive functions. You add one more kind of closures reserved for recursive functions; its environment does not have the self-reference. You add one more case of function application for that new kind of closures, and this is where you patch the environment to add the self-reference. |
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| 06:59:38 | <monochrom> | Err technically not a self-reference. The patch is only good for one level of recursive call. But that's enough because the recursive call has to go through your function application code again where you can patch again for One More Turn. |
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| 07:00:29 | <monochrom> | My https://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-latest/09-semantics-1.html#rec does that. I think you can translate it to SECD form. |
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| 07:00:47 | <monochrom> | err this is more direct: https://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-latest/09-semantics-1.html#letrec |
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| 07:05:54 | <EvanR> | oh nice |
| 07:06:10 | <EvanR> | will be reading this |
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| 08:37:19 | <yin> | is it normal that the more i experiment with haskell, the more i want the type system to have a type system? |
| 08:39:28 | <tomsmeding> | % :k Maybe |
| 08:39:29 | <yahb2> | Maybe :: * -> * |
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| 08:45:25 | <hellwolf> | no on expected the type-in-type inquisition. |
| 08:46:02 | <tomsmeding> | % data Strange = Strange Type |
| 08:46:02 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
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| 08:47:17 | <hellwolf> | Kind in a typed land |
| 08:47:50 | hellwolf | throwing random references |
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| 09:37:10 | <ski> | @kind Eq |
| 09:37:11 | <lambdabot> | * -> Constraint |
| 09:37:29 | <ski> | @kind Functor |
| 09:37:29 | <lambdabot> | (* -> *) -> Constraint |
| 09:37:48 | <ski> | @kind StateT |
| 09:37:49 | <lambdabot> | * -> (* -> *) -> * -> * |
| 09:38:17 | <ski> | yin ^ |
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| 10:43:17 | <yin> | what is this, a type system for ants? |
| 10:43:36 | <yin> | it has got to be at least 4 times bigger |
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| 11:22:08 | <tomsmeding> | % :set -XNoStarIsType |
| 11:22:08 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 11:22:11 | <tomsmeding> | % :k Maybe |
| 11:22:11 | <yahb2> | Maybe :: Type -> Type |
| 11:22:15 | <tomsmeding> | yin: that big enough for you? |
| 11:22:25 | <tomsmeding> | % length "Type" `div` length "*" |
| 11:22:25 | <yahb2> | 4 |
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| 11:52:39 | <yin> | tomsmeding: :) |
| 11:53:04 | <yin> | what's the best resource for getting started with Idris? |
| 12:05:16 | <merijn> | yin: The tutorial? :p |
| 12:05:59 | <merijn> | yin: The tutorial and most introductory Idris stuff is focussed on people coming from Haskell/ML and explaining the differences from there |
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| 13:16:30 | <haskellbridge> | <yin> merijn: ty |
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| 13:23:03 | <yin> | merijn: just to be sure, what do you mean by *the* tutorial? |
| 13:23:27 | <yin> | https://idris2.readthedocs.io/en/latest/tutorial/index.html ? |
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| 13:35:40 | <Square> | hs-source-dirs in cabal cannot be relative it seems? |
| 13:36:40 | <merijn> | Square: How so? |
| 13:36:51 | <merijn> | They are/should be, no? |
| 13:37:21 | <Square> | It could be a haskell + nix problem. But I remember it was a known bug in cabal 2.x |
| 13:37:35 | <Square> | I thought they fixed it in cabal 3 |
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| 13:48:39 | <hellwolf> | huh? |
| 13:48:52 | <hellwolf> | do you mean cannot be relative path from parent folders |
| 13:49:16 | <hellwolf> | otherwise, it doesn't make sense, since it's the basic feature. |
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| 14:00:55 | <Square> | hellwolf, exactly. But yeah, could be a nix + haskell issue. |
| 14:04:00 | <c_wraith> | I have never seen a non-relative path in that field |
| 14:04:43 | <c_wraith> | I'm pretty sure that's what has everyone confused by the question. Of course it works with relative paths, that's the only thing anyone ever uses. |
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| 14:07:02 | <Square> | Ok.. to be specific. I cannot have a hs-source-dir that starts with "../some/path" |
| 14:07:16 | <Square> | hs-source-dirs |
| 14:08:28 | <c_wraith> | It sounds like whatever you're trying to do should be solved by cabal.project instead |
| 14:23:04 | <hellwolf> | "relative path from parent folder" as I suspected. |
| 14:23:16 | <hellwolf> | cabal error message should be very clear of that, as far as I remember. |
| 14:23:41 | <hellwolf> | you should use cabal.project to specify a new local project, and let your other local project depend on it. |
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| 14:30:49 | <merijn> | Square: relative paths outside of the root of the cabal file are not allowed an will never be, that's a feature, not a bug |
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| 14:31:10 | <Square> | merijn, gotcha |
| 14:31:11 | <Square> | thanks |
| 14:32:06 | <merijn> | Square: The intended purpose for cabal files is to describe packages (i.e. self-contained code that can go on to hackage, etc.) which means roots outside of that folder make no sense. You (probably) want a combination of cabal.project and multiple cabal files |
| 14:32:26 | <hellwolf> | I remember I hacked it once with ln -s ../src . |
| 14:32:35 | <hellwolf> | but that was a stupid idea. don't. |
| 14:32:59 | <Square> | I wanted to test out a new project layout wo moving so many files, that was the reason I resorted to the "../" approach |
| 14:33:00 | <merijn> | Since cabal.project's intended purpose is "orchestrating/configuring build configurations of (potentially) unpublished code" |
| 14:33:36 | <Square> | okok |
| 14:33:36 | <hellwolf> | yes. use cabal.project, it will work for your case. |
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| 16:45:10 | <EvanR> | yin, zoolander reference. Can't tell if this movie was genius or terrible |
| 16:45:17 | <symbient> | which is in your opinion best insights for the definitions of the functions when you are trying to make it cleaner and optimize structure |
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| 16:46:15 | <hellwolf> | yoneda lemma. and bye. |
| 16:46:30 | <hellwolf> | that's a drive by question. |
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| 17:22:04 | <hellwolf> | I predict this will be an interesting thread between two effect library authors: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/ann-a-series-of-articles-on-heftia-the-final-word-in-haskell-effect-system-libraries/12104/6 |
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| 21:47:54 | × | j1n37- quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 21:49:15 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 21:53:07 | → | tromp joins (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:a44a:50e6:3df5:3b66) |
| 21:53:08 | → | Frostillicus joins (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 21:56:07 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 21:58:03 | × | Frostillicus quits (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 21:58:05 | → | wickedjargon joins (~user@2001:569:fc3c:d000:49fd:4f0f:5c90:505) |
| 21:58:48 | × | wickedjargon quits (~user@2001:569:fc3c:d000:49fd:4f0f:5c90:505) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 21:59:30 | <hellwolf> | is merijn okay |
| 21:59:31 | → | wickedjargon joins (~user@node-1w7jr9unn02np47211p5af1tx.ipv6.telus.net) |
| 22:02:08 | <monochrom> | Yes. But macOS is not okay, hence the frequent cycle. |
| 22:02:59 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:03:41 | × | tromp quits (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:a44a:50e6:3df5:3b66) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 22:07:54 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 22:09:32 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> merijn's IRC client is making low traffic channels less usable for me |
| 22:10:52 | × | sprotte24 quits (~sprotte24@p200300d16f0fe6004d89544af78e53f5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 22:18:45 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:21:42 | <tomsmeding> | go complain at your irc client vendor to implement a feature hiding join/leave events if those nicks aren't saying anything anyway |
| 22:21:45 | <tomsmeding> | (weechat has this built in) |
| 22:23:51 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 22:24:05 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I can hide them of course, but then I lose useful information about drive by questions etc. I think it's bad form to be constantly joining/leaving 24/7 |
| 22:24:34 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> together with being unresponsive |
| 22:25:40 | × | dolio quits (~dolio@130.44.140.168) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in) |
| 22:25:44 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:26:03 | → | sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 22:28:03 | <int-e> | . o O ( irssi could do /ignore merijn JOINS PARTS QUITS ) |
| 22:28:34 | <hellwolf> | thank you, ityped that in rcirc, and now my toaster is on |
| 22:29:11 | → | dolio joins (~dolio@130.44.140.168) |
| 22:33:22 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:33:44 | → | sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 22:34:32 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:34:32 | × | dolio quits (~dolio@130.44.140.168) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in) |
| 22:35:29 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> (example:) |
| 22:35:41 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/matrix.org/SjmkPwmlbSGWXycvLvhVfyJJ/_Ishca76mvI/image.png |
| 22:39:37 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 22:41:39 | → | dolio joins (~dolio@130.44.140.168) |
| 22:50:06 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:54:36 | × | nullobject quits (~josh@user/nullobject) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 22:54:57 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 22:56:13 | <TMA> | sm: it might not be the client but the ISP that is too aggressive to drop "inactive" TCP streams |
| 22:56:41 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> 👍️ |
| 22:56:44 | → | jmorris joins (uid604645@id-604645.hampstead.irccloud.com) |
| 22:57:19 | → | machinedgod joins (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 22:57:24 | <TMA> | the default of sending keepalive packets is about an hour |
| 22:58:38 | <TMA> | but some routers/NATs are configured to drop the connection (without bothering to announce it properly via ICMP) in several minutes |
| 23:00:32 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> merijn's connected durations aren't all exactly 5m, but close to it |
| 23:00:51 | <Leary> | sm: This is why I like glirc: https://i.imgur.com/yWsxm95.png |
| 23:01:31 | <TMA> | you can tell if it is the case by speaking in merijn-connected channel periodically and observing whether they disconnect approx 5 minutes after you stop |
| 23:01:50 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> and they reconnect not always but usually after 11m |
| 23:02:40 | <TMA> | that looks like autoreconnect with 10 minutes timeout and 1 minute for recognizing the disconnection |
| 23:05:53 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:06:00 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> reconnecting in.. boom |
| 23:06:56 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> it'll disconnect in 5m regardless of us talking I think |
| 23:07:00 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:07:28 | → | sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 23:07:44 | × | xff0x quits (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:7ed8:b8a6:621a:b979) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:07:45 | <sm> | merijn, pinging you again about your IRC connection, please respond if you can see this |
| 23:08:05 | × | manwithluck quits (~manwithlu@2a09:bac5:5084:2387::38a:3b) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 23:08:38 | → | manwithluck joins (~manwithlu@2a09:bac5:5082:2387::38a:10) |
| 23:10:52 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> disconnecting in 5.. 4.. |
| 23:11:06 | Clint | squints. |
| 23:11:13 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 23:11:18 | <Clint> | close enough |
| 23:13:21 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> merijn didn't respond last time I pinged, maybe an IRC op could reach them ? |
| 23:15:46 | <TMA> | my theory is invalidated |
| 23:16:50 | <EvanR> | sm: the C channel soft kickbans you if you leave and join twice too quickly |
| 23:20:01 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 23:20:25 | × | Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 23:20:31 | → | Lord_of_Life_ joins (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) |
| 23:21:41 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:21:54 | Lord_of_Life_ | is now known as Lord_of_Life |
| 23:22:40 | → | peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 23:25:55 | <monochrom> | A long time ago merijn explained it. Something about macOS going to sleep then waking up on LAN. |
| 23:26:11 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> 👀 |
| 23:26:34 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:26:41 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> perhaps he should use a bouncer like me ? |
| 23:27:27 | <monochrom> | I use a bouncer, but I don't want to be imposing and say "everyone must shell out extra money for an extra PC or shell account to run a bouncer". |
| 23:27:41 | → | weary-traveler joins (~user@user/user363627) |
| 23:27:50 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> or configure his mac differently ? or his irc client ? out of kind regard for the room ? |
| 23:28:55 | <monochrom> | But you can count me biased because I am not affected by other people frequently cycling. |
| 23:28:56 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I mean, intermittent 5m slices of channel history isn't very useful to him either |
| 23:29:45 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I will drop this urgent matter for now :) |
| 23:30:08 | <monochrom> | Oh, I have long accepted that people who learn from history are bound to helplessly watch other people repeat it! |
| 23:30:19 | <int-e> | I for one am more bothered by this discussion than by merijns rejoins and no, I'm not ignoring those. Why? Because they don't show up as channel activity. |
| 23:30:46 | <int-e> | And it's pretty far off topic. |
| 23:31:24 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> They do for some of us int-e, as in my screenshot. Having to turn those off entirely and sacrifice all join/leave awareness because of one person's config is silly, don't you think ? |
| 23:31:59 | <int-e> | they're in the (back-)log, but the channel doesn't show as active when somebody parts or joins |
| 23:32:22 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I don't know what that means, it sounds client specific |
| 23:32:43 | <int-e> | this entire "problem" is client specific |
| 23:32:49 | int-e | shrugs |
| 23:33:01 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> sure, but the root cause is merijn |
| 23:33:19 | × | acidjnk quits (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f453148b790f5eba778.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 23:33:53 | → | flounders joins (~flounders@2607:fb90:ee09:4f99:c6b8:4dd2:346a:a4b4) |
| 23:34:15 | <EvanR> | yeah a specific client could discard specifically merijn's join quits |
| 23:34:45 | <EvanR> | and fixing merijn's connection will not save you from it happening to some random other person, but a specific client would |
| 23:34:48 | × | peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 23:35:23 | <EvanR> | another improvement discord made on IRC, no one knows who joined or quit xD |
| 23:37:28 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:38:12 | → | sajenim joins (~sajenim@user/sajenim) |
| 23:42:16 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:43:55 | × | jespada quits (~jespada@r179-25-20-56.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:48:18 | × | machinedgod quits (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:49:13 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 23:50:12 | × | sp1ff quits (~user@c-67-160-173-55.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:50:14 | → | jespada joins (~jespada@r179-25-150-22.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) |
| 23:50:45 | → | j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
| 23:53:16 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:58:24 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-05-15.