Logs on 2025-05-17 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 13:31:54 | tomsmeding | . o O ( haskellbridge is down again ) |
| 13:36:46 | <JuanDaugherty> | is it a multibridge or just discord? |
| 13:37:00 | <JuanDaugherty> | or is it slack? |
| 13:37:32 | <tomsmeding> | it's a bridge to matrix |
| 13:38:23 | <JuanDaugherty> | ah, the inventor of irc Jarkko Okarinen was in a kiwiirc/jissi chat yesterday |
| 13:38:51 | <JuanDaugherty> | turns out he doesn irc much |
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| 13:40:17 | <JuanDaugherty> | with video added it becomes clear how text only irc flattens the natural langs to just english |
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| 13:40:38 | <JuanDaugherty> | *jitsi |
| 13:41:08 | <JuanDaugherty> | as the server and group were in his native finland |
| 13:42:43 | <JuanDaugherty> | the hs channel namespace seems to be holding up here, i've seen in other langs where slack or whatever becomes the default |
| 13:42:57 | <JuanDaugherty> | that's the case for squeak for example |
| 13:43:37 | <JuanDaugherty> | smalltalk was always cozier with the corporate |
| 13:44:19 | <JuanDaugherty> | matrix looks down its nose on discord igess |
| 13:45:55 | <JuanDaugherty> | #haskell-blah is down to a stub of users but has hung on more than a decade since Oejet cause the fork that resulted in #haskell-offtopic |
| 13:46:05 | <JuanDaugherty> | *caused |
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| 13:47:54 | <JuanDaugherty> | the issue was that Oeject insisted on tls |
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| 13:48:58 | <JuanDaugherty> | 10 years on no tls is still a thing, mostly in places of ostentatious trust |
| 13:50:03 | <JuanDaugherty> | ostentatious/implicit |
| 13:51:28 | JuanDaugherty | wonders why some in hs channel space went to matrix |
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| 13:58:27 | <yushyin> | many migrated after the freenode hostile takeover |
| 13:58:57 | <JuanDaugherty> | i think that's ahistorical |
| 13:59:24 | <JuanDaugherty> | the hs namepace moved in a matter of hours upon the freednode/libera event |
| 13:59:50 | <JuanDaugherty> | this migration to matrix is more recent |
| 14:00:38 | <JuanDaugherty> | maybe there was corporate hs that wanted to stay on freenode but couldn for reasons |
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| 15:03:43 | <Leary> | Is there a `newtype ID a = ID Unique` with `sameID :: ID a -> ID b -> Maybe (a :~: b)` already out there somewhere? It's pretty useful: https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/5e4e157055c04a6dea77d9474ec0544a |
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| 15:37:29 | <ski> | @type Type.Reflection.eqTypeRep |
| 15:37:29 | <lambdabot> | forall k1 k2 (a :: k1) (b :: k2). Type.Reflection.TypeRep a -> Type.Reflection.TypeRep b -> Maybe (a :~~: b) |
| 15:37:32 | <ski> | @type Data.Type.Equality.testEquality |
| 15:37:33 | <lambdabot> | forall k (f :: k -> *) (a :: k) (b :: k). Data.Type.Equality.TestEquality f => f a -> f b -> Maybe (a :~: b) |
| 15:37:38 | <ski> | Data.GADT.Compare.geq :: GEq f => f a -> f b -> Maybe (a :~: b) |
| 15:37:57 | <ski> | Leary : some catches ^ |
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| 15:53:12 | <Leary> | ski: Well. I know `ID` could be made `GEq` or (unlawfully) `TestEquality`, but I'm looking for `ID` itself. Perhaps I should have also mentioned that the interface is completed by `newID :: IO (ID a)`; I'm ruling out `TypeRep` for breaking parametricity. |
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| 17:35:31 | <ski> | Leary : oh, the ids are not supposed to be type ids |
| 17:35:57 | <ski> | why is there a type parameter ? |
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| 18:01:36 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: StableName? |
| 18:01:51 | <tomsmeding> | oh no, it doesn't give you type equality evidence |
| 18:02:15 | <tomsmeding> | but its guarantees-by-documentation should allow you to unsafeCoerce in that evidence |
| 18:02:43 | <tomsmeding> | the downside is that StableName does not guarantee that equal names get reported as equal (in practice this happens only under contention during GC or something, iirc) |
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| 18:04:42 | <tomsmeding> | ski: see Leary's paste, they are supposed to be type ids, but interned |
| 18:05:16 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: I wonder if TypeRep + https://hackage.haskell.org/package/intern-0.9.6/docs/Data-Interned.html could be used |
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| 18:06:15 | <tomsmeding> | ah, but Data.Interned drops entries when the cache fills up |
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| 18:08:23 | <joeyadams> | I'm making a library that wraps a Map (Data.Map.Strict) with an index by a non-unique key, e.g. IndexedMap UserType UserId User. Indexes can be "stacked" to index the collection by multiple things, as long as there is one unique key at the bottom: Index UPN (Index UserType Map)) UserId User. That is, Index is a "Map transformer". |
| 18:09:01 | <joeyadams> | I want to call it indexed-map, unless someone has a better suggestion. I'd rather avoid taking up too good of a name, since this isn't something one needs to do frequently, but it pops up from time to time. |
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| 18:13:28 | <tomsmeding> | joeyadams: so your first example would be implemented as, essentially, (Map UserType UserId, Map UserId User)? |
| 18:14:27 | <joeyadams> | It's actually (Map UserId User, Map UserType (Set UserId), User -> Maybe UserType). The index "stores" the mapping function. |
| 18:15:31 | <joeyadams> | This design breaks some properties you'd expect of a Map (like symmetry of union/difference), but the main goal is to guarantee that every operation updates the Index correctly. |
| 18:16:08 | <tomsmeding> | is there a specific reason the third component is a function and not another Map? |
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| 18:17:10 | <tomsmeding> | I would be hesitant to call this indexed-map because haskell library names sometimes take a bunch of influence from type theory, and there "indexed" has a very specific meaning completely unrelated to what you're doing here |
| 18:17:17 | <joeyadams> | It needs to be a function so that when you add new items, they can be grouped correctly. |
| 18:17:50 | <tomsmeding> | can I expect the implementation of that function to be O(log(number of items in the map))? |
| 18:18:21 | <tomsmeding> | oh -- I think I get it. That function is supplied by the programmer, not computed from the maps? |
| 18:18:22 | <joeyadams> | The function is specified by the caller when they create the index. It is typically constant time, e.g. (.userType) |
| 18:18:24 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 18:18:38 | <joeyadams> | But yeah, indexed-map would be a bad name for this. |
| 18:19:17 | <tomsmeding> | so the prime feature this has over Map is that you can efficiently get all users of a particular type |
| 18:19:31 | <tomsmeding> | well, all UserIds |
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| 18:19:43 | <joeyadams> | Right. At any time, after something else updates it. |
| 18:19:49 | monochrom | suggests "keyed map". But hey that's redundant isn't it. :) |
| 18:20:02 | <joeyadams> | It essentially lets you use Map as an in-memory database table. |
| 18:20:29 | <tomsmeding> | hierarchical-map? |
| 18:20:30 | monochrom | goes through moar redundant tries. association map. lookup map. ... |
| 18:21:15 | <monochrom> | heterogeneous map? |
| 18:21:25 | <tomsmeding> | not a fan |
| 18:21:29 | <mastarija> | I don't get how one's supposed to use ReadPrec vs ReadP. ReadP is "less efficient" according to the docs, but it seems like there's no nice way to use ReadPrec without going back and forth between the ReadP and ReadPrec, and that looks like it's going to loose the supposed efficiency of ReadPrec. |
| 18:21:31 | <joeyadams> | It's not hierarchical, though. If you stack multiple Indexes, they all index the whole set. |
| 18:21:43 | <monochrom> | may just call it database because it is a database :) |
| 18:21:52 | <monochrom> | or table |
| 18:22:14 | <tomsmeding> | joeyadams: yes, but you can start with a value in the top-level map, and repeatedly narrow down to a smaller set by supplying more specific keys |
| 18:22:31 | <tomsmeding> | well it models a database with a very specific schema shape |
| 18:22:35 | <joeyadams> | tomsmeding: It's not hierarchical. If you stack indexes, each index covers the whole space of items. |
| 18:22:52 | <tomsmeding> | subset-map? |
| 18:23:03 | <joeyadams> | So you could say Index UPN (Index DisplayName Map)) UserId User |
| 18:23:25 | <monochrom> | "data structure" >:) |
| 18:23:30 | tomsmeding | wonders why the indexes are stacked if they all produce sets of UserId anyway -- I'd expect the "approximate keys" to be equal, not nested |
| 18:23:30 | <joeyadams> | So lookupIndex index "jsmith@example.com" returns a Map UserId User (of all users with that UPN) |
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| 18:23:49 | <joeyadams> | lookupIndex (unwrapIndex index) "John Smith" returns a Map UserId User of everybody named John Smith. |
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| 18:23:54 | tomsmeding | . o O ( Index '[UPN, DisplayName] UserId User ) |
| 18:23:57 | <joeyadams> | The only reason to stack them is to track multiple indexes at once. |
| 18:24:26 | monochrom | is inspired by: A colleague wanted to teach rings but didn't want students to just get answers from chatgpt, so he called it "algebraic structure". |
| 18:24:28 | <joeyadams> | Index '[UPN, DisplayName] would be sexy, but I'm not sure how to do it or if it would be less efficient. |
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| 18:25:13 | <tomsmeding> | doesn't need to be less efficient, a simple GADT will do -- it would become a linked list of the various metadata you need for the "approximate keys", but then, your current nested structure is also nothing more than a linked list |
| 18:25:14 | <mastarija> | What's that about? Variants as indexes? |
| 18:25:19 | <joeyadams> | I'm not a fan of `lookupIndex (unwrapIndex index) "John Smith"`. But I also don't want to assume that each indexed field is uniquely identifiable by type. |
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| 18:25:32 | <joeyadams> | There might be 3 string fields I want to index on, all of them different backing fields. |
| 18:25:35 | <tomsmeding> | '[UPN, DisplayName] is a list, not a set ;) |
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| 18:26:19 | <tomsmeding> | I don't know if the resulting API would necessarily be much nicer than what you currently have, but intuitively it makes more sense to me -- they are at the same level, so they ought to be represented in a type on the same level, not nested |
| 18:26:20 | <joeyadams> | Right, Index is a linked list of indexes that lead to a Map at the end, which holds the actual values. |
| 18:26:21 | <__monty__> | Future math courses "Today we'll take a look at frobbles. BTW, yesterdays guirnicks are actually called natural numbers." |
| 18:27:01 | monochrom | considers his fingers. If "index" has an issue, then perhaps other fingers will help, e.g., "thumb map"? Some dictionaries certainly want you to thumb them... |
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| 18:27:20 | <joeyadams> | I'm building this like a monad transformer right now, except Index transforms a Map instead of a monad. Doing it with a type-level list would make it more like an effect system. |
| 18:27:36 | <joeyadams> | monochrom I love it. |
| 18:28:08 | <tomsmeding> | when in doubt about a contentful name, one can always reach for whimsical names |
| 18:28:21 | <mastarija> | I often do xD |
| 18:28:28 | <tomsmeding> | names are hard |
| 18:28:45 | <mastarija> | The lengths I go through to get all of my field names to have the same length for tidiness. |
| 18:29:04 | <mastarija> | I love thesaurus.com for that. |
| 18:29:05 | <joeyadams> | There's a library that does what I'm talking about, except every index is a separate type variable: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/simple-index/docs/Data-SimpleIndex.html |
| 18:29:28 | <tomsmeding> | ewww |
| 18:30:05 | <joeyadams> | What I'm doing is building something a little more composable than that. My library is still a little ugly, though. |
| 18:31:28 | <joeyadams> | If someone wanted Set, or HashMap, or whatever to be the underlying type, they wouldn't be able to. I could use associated types, but it makes things ugly. The index itself needs a collection of some sort, and using Data.Map.Strict and Data.Set across the board is more practical. |
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| 18:34:30 | <__monty__> | monochrom: No can do, Finger trees already use all the other fingers. |
| 18:35:56 | <monochrom> | heh |
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| 19:44:14 | <hololeap> | I'm getting "Conflicting family instance declarations" and I don't understand why <https://0x0.st/8vUb.txt> |
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| 20:21:54 | <int-e> | hololeap: Based on the error message I'd image that `type IOMode = STRef RealWorld` so `IOMode` and `STRef s` overlap |
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| 20:22:57 | <int-e> | err, `type IOMode = STMode RealWord` and the final `STRef` was also supposed to be `STMode` |
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| 20:37:12 | <EvanR> | I have this expression somewhere, within a larger expression, all on one line. (get next, env) : dump. I'd like to evaluate get next "now" ... is there a slick way |
| 20:37:54 | <EvanR> | ditch the list of pairs and make a strict pair chain datatype? |
| 20:38:06 | <tomsmeding> | let !x = get next in .... x .... |
| 20:38:17 | <EvanR> | ah |
| 20:38:31 | <EvanR> | oof my code style! |
| 20:38:34 | <tomsmeding> | not sure about "slick" though |
| 20:38:39 | <EvanR> | there's a lot of ... |
| 20:39:18 | <hololeap> | int-e: looks like you may be on to something: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/flatparse-0.5.2.1/docs/FlatParse-Common-Parser.html |
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| 20:46:11 | <EvanR> | tomsmeding, ... (x, env) : dump ... where !x = get next ? |
| 20:49:19 | <EvanR> | hoping this desugars to the same thing |
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| 20:59:06 | <monochrom> | I think it's the same thing. |
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| 22:06:37 | <kaol> | cabal v2 sucks. I want to edit one file and I can't figure how to do an incremental compile. It always worked just fine with v1. I seem to be stuck in a hell of waiting for 150 modules to build every time instead. |
| 22:08:02 | <monochrom> | I never experieinced that. |
| 22:08:20 | <kaol> | "cabal build > Up to date" no it isn't you idiot program. |
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| 22:16:36 | <kaol> | Okay, I switched from bumping the project version number in cabal to just twiddling with build-depends instead. That avoids doing the full compile at least. Now I just change base's upper bound every time to trigger the check to see that one module that's changed. |
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| 22:26:20 | <hololeap> | I've seen doctests change some obscure thing and cause a bunch of modules to get rebuilt |
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| 22:28:51 | <kaol> | And even that build-dependency trick is not quite clean. It triggers dependency checks for all of my executables and libraries, not just the one I'm editing. Those take time. |
| 22:29:58 | <kaol> | And all I'm really doing is just cabal build. This is the kind of usability issues that make me think that cabal developers never use the program themselves. |
| 22:30:33 | <EvanR> | you're changing the version numbers on base but don't want it to recompile everything? |
| 22:30:53 | <kaol> | I'm only doing it to have it notice a change to one module file. |
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| 22:31:10 | <kaol> | The upper bound. I'm not obviously changing ghc in between. |
| 22:31:21 | <EvanR> | changing 1 module file shouldn't trigger a full rebuild, unless it's something everything depends on |
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| 22:31:46 | <kaol> | Changing 1 module file gets completely ignored. That's the problem. |
| 22:31:55 | <EvanR> | o_O |
| 22:31:59 | <kaol> | I'm manipulating my cabal file just to make cabal build catch that. |
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| 22:32:28 | <EvanR> | are you sure that file is listed in the cabal other modules |
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| 22:34:39 | <Clint> | as opposed to exposed-modules? |
| 22:34:41 | <kaol> | It makes no difference whether I have it in other-modules or not. |
| 22:34:55 | <kaol> | v1 never cared about that. |
| 22:35:41 | <monochrom> | I guess with 150 modules, one is not inclined to list them anywhere. |
| 22:36:19 | <kaol> | I just want the behavior that cabal build does if I have a compile error in one module. It works as expected as long as I don't have it compile successfully. |
| 22:36:38 | <kaol> | As long as it is in that state I can change any module and it sees the change. |
| 22:36:53 | <kaol> | But once it compiles once, it never checks any files for changes again. |
| 22:36:58 | <kaol> | Unless I edit my cabal file. |
| 22:37:19 | <kaol> | Which triggers all sorts of dependency checks as well which is slow. |
| 22:38:32 | <kaol> | If cabal build is not the supposed way to use cabal then what is? |
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| 22:38:45 | <kaol> | If I can't even build my project anymore after it succeeds once? |
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| 22:46:07 | <sm> | kaol, that's not working as intended. It'll take some work, but maybe you can minimise it to identify the cause, or share the repo |
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| 22:47:31 | <sm> | there's also the #hackage channel where cabal developers are |
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| 22:49:47 | <sm> | also mention your cabal --version |
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| 22:52:13 | <kaol> | https://gitlab.com/piperka/piperka and cabal-install version 3.10.3.0 |
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| 22:56:25 | <sm> | kaol, this project doesn't build easily, I wonder which ghc --version you have |
| 22:56:46 | <sm> | 9.6 I guess |
| 22:58:07 | <sm> | no good.. I would try to reproduce your issue, but I can't resolve your dependencies |
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| 22:59:08 | <kaol> | I'm using 9.6.6 currently. |
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| 23:10:12 | <sm> | --allow-newer gets farther, but I failed to make cabal build text-icu on mac. But try simplifying your project until it works. Changing a .hs file should definitely trigger recompilation |
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| 23:22:59 | <kaol> | "cabal install --only-dependencies --force-reinstalls --overwrite-policy=always" works as well to clear whatever's blocking the module file change check. |
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| 23:25:04 | <kaol> | No wait, that didn't. I still needed to edit my cabal file. |
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| 23:36:36 | <Leary> | kaol: Your `hs-source-dirs` are overlapping between components. This can cause problems due to the way GHC searches for modules; try separating them. |
| 23:38:45 | <sm> | 🚀 |
| 23:39:42 | <Leary> | (I'm not claiming this is the solution, but it's the thing that looks most wrong in the .cabal file) |
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