Logs on 2025-05-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:20:45 | <geekosaur> | seems like a #GHC:matrix.org question |
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| 00:30:27 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ooo i'll ask there, ty! |
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| 00:32:42 | <EvanR> | folks we've been lied to this whole time |
| 00:33:27 | <EvanR> | the "garbage collector" doesn't actually identify and collect garbage. It identifies and collects non-garbage! |
| 00:34:18 | <EvanR> | treasure collector |
| 00:34:20 | <int-e> | It's the Sherlock Holmes approach to garbage collection. |
| 00:35:50 | <int-e> | (once you've identified all reachable objects, whatever remains must, by definition, be garbage) |
| 00:36:06 | <int-e> | Mark & sweep operates that way too. But reference counting does not. |
| 00:36:28 | <monochrom> | haha I mistakenly wrote {-# language GHC2010 #-}. (Brain conflating Haskell2010 with GHC2021.) |
| 00:36:38 | <int-e> | (Mark & sweep is just less efficient about going through the garbage while discarding it.) |
| 00:37:08 | <EvanR> | the sweep in mark and sweep is actively sweeping away garbage |
| 00:37:13 | <monochrom> | s/garbage collector/scavenger/ |
| 00:37:30 | <EvanR> | while moving collector is actively saving good stuff from destruction |
| 00:37:31 | <monochrom> | "Haskell is an easter-egg scavenger language!" |
| 00:38:05 | <int-e> | quick, evacuate, before the arena is reset |
| 00:38:05 | <EvanR> | oh yeah reference counting |
| 00:38:25 | <monochrom> | rescuer. evacuator. emergency responder. Red Cross/Cresent. |
| 00:38:33 | <EvanR> | in godot it is said that reference counting "is not garbage collection, we don't have a garbage collector" |
| 00:39:01 | <EvanR> | so the scope of garbage collector is incredibly shrinking as people strive to undefine things |
| 00:39:04 | <int-e> | monochrom: GHC's RTS uses "scavenge" and "evacuate" as verbs internally |
| 00:39:06 | <monochrom> | I am not that strict. Reference counting counts, too. |
| 00:40:13 | <int-e> | monochrom: and I assumed that you said "scavenger" alluding to that |
| 00:40:45 | <monochrom> | OK one more pun. People are still going to block BlockArguments when the time comes for GHC2030. |
| 00:41:09 | <EvanR> | they better have a good argument |
| 00:42:04 | <EvanR> | unless they decision has already been made and BlockArgument arguments will themselves be blocked |
| 00:42:20 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 00:44:01 | <EvanR> | I'm writing a pretty printer and like, the logic to decide when and what the newline and then how much to indent doesn't seem related to the subject matter of the thing being pretty printed |
| 00:44:15 | <EvanR> | is there a thing to map to where pretty printing has been solved |
| 00:44:21 | <EvanR> | the pretty printable |
| 00:44:32 | <EvanR> | to newline* |
| 00:44:49 | <EvanR> | non standard gerunds don't mix well with typos |
| 00:49:17 | <monochrom> | Yes it is solved. A pretty-printing library provides two things and you use both: 1. You tell the render function how wide (how many columns). 2. You use an operator that means "can break line here if necessary; if not, just a space". |
| 00:49:19 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I don't know if it's ever entirely solved, but pretty-simple or pretty-show might have ideas ? |
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| 00:55:44 | <monochrom> | The Hughes and SPJ paper should have how to implement it. |
| 00:57:46 | <EvanR> | monochrom, what theory is all this |
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| 00:58:15 | <EvanR> | is there a paper |
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| 00:58:33 | <monochrom> | Yes, that paper. |
| 00:58:55 | <monochrom> | "The Design of a Pretty-printing Library" |
| 00:59:19 | <monochrom> | the haddock of Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ has a link. |
| 00:59:36 | <EvanR> | uhg John Hughes |
| 00:59:41 | <EvanR> | can't stand those movies |
| 01:01:10 | <monochrom> | Wait does he sometimes call himself Edmond Dantes? |
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| 01:08:27 | <EvanR> | had to look that one up! |
| 01:09:44 | <monochrom> | Yeah I was looking at imdb.com and it says "(as Edmond Dantes)" for Beethoven movies. |
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| 06:57:25 | <bwe> | Is System.Mem.getAllocationCounter the function that I want if I want to output the currently allocated memory from within a couple of places in my application (to track down space leaks), similarly to Debug.Trace.trace? |
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| 08:43:43 | <lortabac> | is there a library (other than 'scientific') to work with integers and floats as a single data type? |
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| 08:50:12 | <haskellbridge> | <zungi (it/its)> lortabac: Are you basically wanting a beefier Either Integer Float? |
| 08:50:20 | <lortabac> | yes |
| 08:50:46 | <tomsmeding> | lortabac: Data.Fixed in base? |
| 08:50:50 | <lortabac> | I want to represent Prolog numbers |
| 08:51:01 | <tomsmeding> | not quite what you're asking for though |
| 08:52:15 | <tomsmeding> | if you want particular semantics for numbers then I guess you should implement that semantics yourself |
| 08:52:27 | <tomsmeding> | a random haskell package is unlikely to precisely reflect prolog semantics for numbers |
| 08:53:00 | <lortabac> | fair point |
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| 08:53:50 | <lortabac> | I mean, that's certainly what I'll do in the long term |
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| 08:54:13 | <lortabac> | I just hoped there was something ready to build a quick prototype |
| 08:54:39 | <haskellbridge> | <zungi (it/its)> So long as you know what you want, this project might be pretty fast. |
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| 08:56:43 | <lortabac> | yes I guess I'll just implement it directly with the right semantics |
| 08:57:46 | <jackdk> | Can your prototype be `Either Double Integer` or a newtype thereof? |
| 08:59:10 | <lortabac> | I need to think |
| 08:59:47 | <lortabac> | the (relatively) hard part is how to parse the numbers correctly |
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| 09:01:06 | <lortabac> | another option would be to have integers and doubles as separate types in the Haskell representation |
| 09:01:24 | <lortabac> | since SWI Prolog represents them as separate types internally anyway |
| 09:01:46 | <lortabac> | (I'm writing FFI bindings to SWI Prolog) |
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| 09:04:06 | <lortabac> | so if I use a single Number type I have to parse the numbers as the Prolog parser would, and then set them as integer or double when calling Prolog |
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| 09:04:55 | <tomsmeding> | that sounds like one builds bindings that map integers and floats separately, with an optional layer on top that unifies them |
| 09:05:31 | <jackdk> | Something else that often comes up with FFI work: you might find it valuable to distinguish between low-level bindings and ergonomic bindings. Example: package `lua` vs. the `hslua-*` family of libraries. |
| 09:06:13 | <tomsmeding> | (that's what I was thinking of, also OpenGLRaw vs OpenGL) |
| 09:06:33 | <lortabac> | yes I already have the low-level bindings |
| 09:06:48 | <lortabac> | now I'm thinking of how to represent Prolog terms at a higher level |
| 09:06:59 | <lortabac> | whether it makes sense to have a single number type |
| 09:07:14 | <tomsmeding> | do you want the user to program prolog in haskell, or do you want them to communicate with a prolog program in a haskell fashion? |
| 09:07:39 | <lortabac> | I have a slight preference for the latter |
| 09:07:49 | <jackdk> | I can't find the SWI Prolog FFI docs in five seconds of web searching, but I'd look at closely matching whatever the runtime uses so e.g. `Storable` instances are easy to write and then maybe look at pattern synonyms or something as a way to make it behave like a numeric ADT with a couple of constructors. It depends on how you plan to use this stuff too - try sketching programs against an ideal FFI and see how hard that would be to implement. |
| 09:07:52 | <tomsmeding> | that sounds like separate number types, then |
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| 09:09:36 | <lortabac> | thinking loudly... ultimately what counts is being able to use Prolog features in Haskell, not being faithful to the Prolog surface language |
| 09:09:54 | <lortabac> | so it makes sense to have a more Haskell-y high-level API |
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| 09:15:50 | <jackdk> | low-level bindings + haskelly high-level interface is a tried-and-true pattern, even if you have to perform Dark Arts to get there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIqXJhfzyas (feat. `reallyUnsafePtrEquality#`) |
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| 10:04:20 | <lortabac> | thanks jackdk I'll watch that video |
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| 11:22:29 | <bwe> | tomsmeding, [exa], EvanR: Haskell uses 87x times the peak memory and takes 2x the time compared to Rust in (simple) scraping the h2 tag on amazon.com: https://github.com/benjaminweb/scraper-experiment |
| 11:25:14 | <bwe> | (html file is ≈ 0.7 MB, Haskell allocates 261 MB memory, Rust 3 MB memory) |
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| 13:20:19 | <EvanR> | bwe, yeah I'm not surprised |
| 13:20:29 | <EvanR> | haskell uses memory |
| 13:20:42 | <EvanR> | this is why it's unlikely to work on a microcontroller |
| 13:20:55 | <EvanR> | (as is) |
| 13:22:08 | <EvanR> | however if you can frame the problem correctly (streaming) then you can get peak memory down pretty low |
| 13:22:19 | <EvanR> | much less than 250 MB ime |
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| 13:29:32 | <EvanR> | sometimes easier said than done. It's easy to write some code which "ruins" the streaming (necessarily or not) and it starts accumulating chonks of data |
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| 13:29:48 | <EvanR> | at least the program still works |
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| 14:40:15 | <EvanR> | I like how if all you want to do is use a proper Semigroup, it forces you into the NonEmpty world because sconcat :: Semigroup a => NonEmpty a -> a |
| 14:40:31 | <EvanR> | no more fooling around |
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| 16:22:47 | <EvanR> | how to avoid writing the pretty printer, write this first https://paste.tomsmeding.com/PCP0DeIf |
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| 16:44:20 | <Leary> | EvanR: Shouldn't `Blank -> []`? Then `Doc` can be a `Monoid` too, assuming you make it opaque. |
| 16:45:28 | <Leary> | As is, it's redundant with `Line ""`. |
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| 16:48:51 | <EvanR> | you're right it's redundant |
| 16:49:20 | <EvanR> | I have no use for an empty Doc though |
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| 17:08:22 | <EvanR> | Blank removed by popular demand |
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| 17:33:31 | <monochrom> | I want Monoid and emptiness. :( |
| 17:34:46 | <monochrom> | Your doc is non-empty so maybe it's half-empty half-full. :) |
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| 17:45:08 | <hellwolf> | you can fmap it, so that you don't need to care what's inside |
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| 19:04:16 | <[exa]> | bwe: tbh you should be doing a full GC before the benchmark around here https://github.com/benjaminweb/scraper-experiment/blob/main/haskell-scraper/app/Main.hs#L15 |
| 19:05:06 | <[exa]> | bwe: also you're not benchmarking the actual scraping because that only happens at the pPrint (!), there's nothing that would force the `res` earlier. |
| 19:08:48 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> compare also what gnu time or +RTS -s report |
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| 19:38:20 | <tomsmeding> | benchmarking is hard |
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| 19:46:19 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> eg tex tried to solve it |
| 19:46:27 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oops, mispaste |
| 19:46:39 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> agreed tomsmeding |
| 19:48:51 | <tomsmeding> | tex did not try to solve benchmarking ;) |
| 19:49:27 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> are we sure... :) |
| 19:51:29 | <EvanR> | I think this pretty printer is getting out of hand https://paste.tomsmeding.com/hIfTs3ER |
| 19:53:01 | <EvanR> | might be useful evidence against english programming language syntax |
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| 19:54:06 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> fun |
| 19:54:08 | <EvanR> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/S7t6uthh |
| 19:54:23 | <EvanR> | nice let chaining |
| 19:54:24 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> connect Inform7 to haskell EvanR |
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| 20:00:37 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> they agree, same max heap. Also productivity is only 29%, so room for improvement |
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| 20:01:31 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> bwe maybe there's some other similar libraries you can compare |
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| 20:03:43 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> like tagsoup (older, but more used) |
| 20:05:46 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> or pandoc even |
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| 20:15:54 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript |
| 20:16:54 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I see that thread replies from matrix don't show any reference on the IRC side. How about this regular reply |
| 20:17:07 | <sm> | nope. Good to know |
| 20:17:38 | tomsmeding | swears replies on the matrix side were represented on this side _somehow_ at some point |
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| 20:17:58 | <sm> | yes I bet you're right. The old matrix.org bridge maybe ? |
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| 20:18:08 | <tomsmeding> | I think in the haskellbridge era |
| 20:18:21 | <sm> | geekosaur has gone through a few versions I guess |
| 20:18:21 | <tomsmeding> | but it may have been people manually quoting the thing they reply to |
| 20:18:30 | <tomsmeding> | true |
| 20:20:00 | <sm> | well bwe let us know when you try more things. Obviously this benchmark is unacceptable :) |
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| 20:22:41 | <sm> | I mean, the rust/haskell disparity. The benchmark is great, at checking max heap at least |
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| 20:23:32 | <sm> | more of this would be good |
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| 20:55:49 | <EvanR> | tell application "Microsoft Word" to quit |
| 20:56:18 | <EvanR> | never thought of this grammatical construction as involving "an infinitive" |
| 20:56:49 | <EvanR> | re: AppleScript |
| 20:58:00 | <c_wraith> | If you want to get super pedantic, it doesn't. English doesn't have infinitives the way latin does. |
| 20:58:23 | <EvanR> | Also, the word "the" can legally be used anywhere in the script in order to enhance readability: it has no effect on the functionality of the script. |
| 20:58:35 | <EvanR> | I wonder if that would help in haskell xD |
| 20:58:51 | <c_wraith> | > do do do do do () |
| 20:58:52 | <lambdabot> | () |
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| 20:59:12 | <EvanR> | > do 2 + 2 |
| 20:59:13 | <lambdabot> | 4 |
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| 20:59:21 | <EvanR> | do theMario |
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| 21:01:37 | <sm> | you remind me of https://codewithrockstar.com |
| 21:05:44 | <EvanR> | nobody ever wrote a power ballad about customerTaxPayable |
| 21:05:50 | <EvanR> | *until now* |
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| 21:07:22 | <sm> | it was hard to find examples, so here's one: https://github.com/messcheg/advent-of-code/blob/main/AdventOfCode2015/Day07/Day07.rock |
| 21:08:30 | <EvanR> | holy crap |
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| 21:14:48 | <sm> | and now I can't not share an Inform7 thing too. https://github.com/I7-Examples/Zork/blob/main/Zork.inform/Source/story.ni (spoilers!) |
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| 21:18:49 | <EvanR> | A thing can be non-flaming or flaming. A thing is usually non-flaming. A thing can be non-inflammable or inflammable. A thing is usually non-inflammable. |
| 21:19:39 | <sm> | ah, better view: https://i7-dungeon.sourceforge.net/source.html |
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| 21:25:23 | <EvanR> | this sort of declarative language is something chatGPT comes up with if asked for game scripts |
| 21:25:38 | <EvanR> | am kind of surprised at some of the constructions it suggests |
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| 21:30:06 | <monochrom> | the = id |
| 21:30:43 | <monochrom> | Now you can write "a = the b + the (sin x)" |
| 21:31:08 | <monochrom> | Oh also of = id. Now you can write "the (sin `of` x)" too. >:) |
| 21:32:02 | <monochrom> | Hey "the sin `of` x" also works! |
| 21:32:39 | <monochrom> | I'm going to put that on the exam! |
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| 21:38:05 | <EvanR> | nice touch |
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| 21:52:17 | <geekosaur> | re replies: the old EMS bridge and I think matterbridge quoted part of the replied-to message, heisenbridge (current one) only mentions the nick |
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| 21:52:38 | <ncf> | now make it so that only grammatically well-formed phrases are well-typed |
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| 21:53:41 | <geekosaur> | you do know what that implies for English, right? |
| 21:53:44 | <geekosaur> | 😛 |
| 21:54:59 | <ncf> | i'm not sure |
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| 22:07:29 | <TMA> | ncf: Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. |
| 22:08:17 | <spew> | does not parse |
| 22:09:03 | <TMA> | it reportedly does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo |
| 22:09:29 | <EvanR> | seems right https://paste.tomsmeding.com/hvz9f6Lt |
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| 22:14:39 | <sm> | geekosaur, I don't see the original sender's nick mentioned in replies |
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| 22:17:42 | <haskellbridge> | <geekosaur> sm: Testing |
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| 22:17:59 | <geekosaur> | worked there |
| 22:18:22 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> geekosaur: testing ordinary reply from matrix |
| 22:18:34 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> geekosaur: testing threaded reply from matrix |
| 22:18:58 | <sm> | looks good! I must be confused |
| 22:19:38 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> sm: ordinary reply to myself |
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| 22:21:15 | <sm> | well I am confused, it seemed to not do it for my earlier " they agree, same max heap..." and "...How about this regular reply" replies. But it'll probably become clear |
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| 22:53:44 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://learnxinyminutes.com/haskell is a great intro that could use some love |
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| 23:24:51 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> it's the only haskell doc with many translations AFAIK |
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| 23:25:12 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> (11 languages) |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-05-19.