Logs on 2025-05-21 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:06:01 | <LAC-Tech> | EvanR: aha, I did not know that. I need to look up ST |
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| 02:10:59 | <EvanR> | :t runST (newSTRef 0 >>= \ref -> replicateM 11 (modifySTRef ref (+1)) >> readSTRef ref) |
| 02:11:00 | <lambdabot> | Num a => a |
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| 02:11:08 | <EvanR> | :t runST (newSTRef (0::Int) >>= \ref -> replicateM 11 (modifySTRef ref (+1)) >> readSTRef ref) |
| 02:11:09 | <lambdabot> | Int |
| 02:11:16 | <EvanR> | > runST (newSTRef (0::Int) >>= \ref -> replicateM 11 (modifySTRef ref (+1)) >> readSTRef ref) |
| 02:11:17 | <lambdabot> | 11 |
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| 02:11:39 | <EvanR> | haskell: the best imperative language? |
| 02:11:58 | <jackdk> | Unironically |
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| 02:24:12 | <Axman6> | I was reading edwardk's quanxi source code the other day, and there's so much imperative shit doing on, but interleaving mutable references with (sometime atomic) updates of pure values makes the code pretty nice... once you understand wtf it's trying to do |
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| 02:26:27 | <EvanR> | update pure values?? from "undefined" to "defined" or is it changing the representation to something semantically equivalent |
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| 02:36:37 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 02:40:54 | <monochrom> | SPJ did say that Haskell is the finest imperative language. :) |
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| 02:43:24 | <EvanR> | and that Haskell is useless |
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| 02:43:47 | <EvanR> | they are consistent remarks |
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| 02:44:46 | <monochrom> | Haskell is useful to me. I wrote Haskell programs to generate test cases for C programs and Java programs. |
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| 02:46:28 | <monochrom> | I teach data structures and I wrote Haskell programs to generate examples of AVL rebalancing steps. |
| 02:47:28 | <EvanR> | someone at the escape room designed the most ridiculous pipe and water puzzle so I had to write a haskell program to verify that it could be solved the way they thought it could |
| 02:47:44 | <monochrom> | heh |
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| 02:51:30 | <monochrom> | I teach network sockets and give network socket server and client assignments. To help students reality-check their misinterpretation of my protocal specification, I provide my model servers and clients for them to run against. I wrote them in Haskell so that if anyone tries to decompile my exes to cheat, they break down in tears and never recovers. >:) |
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| 02:53:23 | <EvanR> | an actual class on sockets wow |
| 02:53:24 | <monochrom> | In that case, actually "Haskell is useless" and "Haskell is useful" are consistent. Haskell is useless, therefore no one invest in decompiling Haskell exes back to anything human-readable, therefore Haskell is useful for exe obfuscation. |
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| 02:53:36 | <EvanR> | I was in the wrong computer science program |
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| 02:55:04 | <monochrom> | Furthermore, GHC RTS makes such spamming and confusing syscalls that even strace doesn't help. >:) |
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| 03:33:06 | <c_wraith> | you can turn off all those vtimer syscalls |
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| 05:47:05 | <Axman6> | monochrom: Having run many programs through Ghidra, I can confirm they have no idea wtf is going on. Still useful for figuring out how things like numerical code gets compiled, but understanding control flow is out of the question. What syscalls does the RTS make that're confusing? |
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| 06:11:57 | <monochrom> | I see a good dose of poll and epoll, futex, and a lot of spurrious read. It also doesn't help that I linked with the threaded RTS. >:) |
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| 06:21:09 | <davean> | EvanR: where did you manage to have a CS degree that didn't have you do socket stuff? |
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| 11:12:11 | <lxsameer> | hiya, how do you create a collection of data that implement this type class? https://dpaste.com/BGS8H9STQ |
| 11:12:19 | <lxsameer> | like in a list or something |
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| 11:25:09 | <lortabac> | lxsameer: would an existential be ok for your use case? |
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| 11:26:04 | <lxsameer> | lortabac: yeah, but still I can't figure out how to do it, I'm running into a wall everytime |
| 11:26:12 | <lortabac> | something like this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/26nNsFxD |
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| 11:27:48 | <lxsameer> | lortabac: let me try it |
| 11:29:23 | <lxsameer> | lortabac: quick question, the constraint of `a` in some type, is there any specific reason why it is there in compare to after the forall? |
| 11:31:59 | <lortabac> | lxsameer: yes. In order to use the constraint you need to pattern-match on the constructor |
| 11:33:26 | <lortabac> | perhaps it's clearer if we use GADT syntax |
| 11:33:28 | <lortabac> | data SomePass where SomePass :: (Pass a) => a -> SomePass |
| 11:33:29 | <lxsameer> | another question would be, how would you create a function that runs all these passes, how would you know the type of the last pass's Out? |
| 11:33:44 | <lxsameer> | lortabac: ah got it |
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| 11:34:31 | <Leary> | The non-GADTSyntax equivalent of that is `data SomePass = forall a. Pass a => SomePass a`. |
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| 11:35:09 | <Leary> | What was written corresponds to `data SomePass where SomePass :: (Pass a => a) -> SomePass` |
| 11:39:01 | <lortabac> | Leary: ah yes you are right |
| 11:39:26 | <lortabac> | I never use the non-GADT syntax :D |
| 11:39:36 | <lxsameer> | with SomePass the input and output type of the pipeline is getting lost |
| 11:40:05 | <lortabac> | lxsameer: yes my example is probably not enough for a real use case |
| 11:40:24 | <Leary> | lxsameer: Here's a non-existential version: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/fD4iPRSQ |
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| 11:41:23 | <lxsameer> | lortabac: cheers, thanks for the help |
| 11:41:28 | <lxsameer> | Leary: thank you let me have a look |
| 11:41:54 | <lxsameer> | there are a ton to unpack |
| 11:44:00 | <Leary> | The core is just the `data HListOf` declaration; the rest is conveniences. |
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| 11:44:39 | <lxsameer> | Leary: the DataKinds extension confuses me all the time :)) |
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| 12:33:23 | pavonia | is now known as [XRPTradingBot] |
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| 13:53:43 | <bwe> | [exa]: Haskell now takes (11 ms @ 13 MB memory, was 160 ms @ 130 MB) compared to Rust 70 ms @ 3 MB: https://github.com/benjaminweb/scraper-experiment |
| 13:55:06 | <bwe> | [exa]: That's pretty impressive as Rust's scraper uses Servo (Firefox's HTML tokenizer). |
| 13:58:03 | <Athas> | Nice result. What's the trick? |
| 13:58:07 | <[exa]> | wow |
| 13:58:08 | <[exa]> | cool |
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| 14:00:23 | <[exa]> | ohwait, you don't have any optimization flags enabled in the whole project? (-O2, and the ones for "expose all unfoldings" and "specialize aggressively" which I don't remember exactly as args) |
| 14:00:36 | <[exa]> | bwe: ^ |
| 14:01:05 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: -O1 is default for cabal |
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| 14:01:41 | <Athas> | How much of this problem is IO-bound? |
| 14:01:53 | <tomsmeding> | bwe: I assume you did `cargo run --release` for Rust? |
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| 14:18:50 | <bwe> | Athas: I swapped in html-parse instead of tagsoup. |
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| 14:22:45 | <bwe> | tomsmeding: No, once I do, it brings it down to 5 ms for Rust, which is less than 11 ms for Haskell. The Haskell one remains stable at 10 ms with and without -O2. |
| 14:22:50 | <bwe> | [exa]: ^^ |
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| 14:23:50 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> You have to run the rust with --release otherwise its a wholly unfair comparison. Run haskell with --enable-profiling and then compare against debug rudt |
| 14:25:08 | <__monty__> | So a browser in Haskell when? |
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| 14:36:45 | <Square> | This old package is marked as broken in nix repos https://github.com/tibbe/template. Anyone know of a super simple text interpolation library that does roughly the same thing? |
| 14:37:09 | <Square> | (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/template) |
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| 14:43:10 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: --enable-profiling and --ghc-options=-O0, rather |
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| 14:56:36 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Yeah though profiling will make it way slower than debug rust already probably |
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| 15:01:55 | <geekosaur> | if your ghc and cabal are recent enough, --enable-profiling --profiling-detail=late -O |
| 15:02:15 | <geekosaur> | (cabal 3.14, I think any ghc from 9.4 on?) |
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| 15:30:41 | <dminuoso> | __monty__: Oh that's easy to answer. Give me some 500 million EUR, and Ill have it done for you in a year. |
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| 15:31:19 | <dminuoso> | Or, alternatively, Ill give you a big <Insert coin here> box that, when filled, will spit out a complete browser. |
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| 16:15:14 | <Hecate> | 'sup dminuoso o/ |
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| 16:55:40 | <EvanR> | oh are we competing on how slow we can make haskell and rust |
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| 17:39:38 | monochrom | uncuts, 499 million EUR is good enough for me >:) |
| 17:39:51 | <monochrom> | err s/uncuts/undercuts/ |
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| 17:40:29 | <monochrom> | Oh wouldn't it be nice if we add "uncut" to prolog so it can unroll a cut. >:) |
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| 18:18:40 | <EvanR> | sepBy :: Parser a -> Parser b -> Parser [a] |
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| 18:19:03 | <EvanR> | ??? :: [Parser a] -> Parser b -> Parser [a] |
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| 18:20:09 | <fraznel> | mapSepBy |
| 18:20:20 | <monochrom> | That's an interesting combinator. I haven't heard of a name. |
| 18:20:55 | <monochrom> | You may get inspiration from intercalate. |
| 18:21:06 | <monochrom> | err, intersperse |
| 18:21:19 | <monochrom> | @type intersperse |
| 18:21:19 | <lambdabot> | a -> [a] -> [a] |
| 18:21:20 | <EvanR> | e.g. 3,true,'x' => [VInt 3, VBool True, VChar 'x'] |
| 18:21:42 | <EvanR> | has to match the number and order of the parsers |
| 18:21:44 | <monochrom> | > intersperse "," ["ab", "cd", "ef"] |
| 18:21:45 | <lambdabot> | ["ab",",","cd",",","ef"] |
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| 18:21:55 | <EvanR> | yes if you do that you end up with commas in your output |
| 18:22:03 | <monochrom> | OK that's confusing. Here is a better example: |
| 18:22:07 | <monochrom> | > intersperse "/" ["ab", "cd", "ef"] |
| 18:22:08 | <lambdabot> | ["ab","/","cd","/","ef"] |
| 18:22:36 | <EvanR> | intersperse with parers returning Nothing, and map yours so they return Just, then catMaybes in the end |
| 18:25:10 | <monochrom> | [Parser a] -> Parser [a] is traverse. You have an extra separator. traverseSepBy? |
| 18:25:30 | [exa] | votes for intercalateBy |
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| 18:26:16 | <monochrom> | traverseIntersperedBy -- travesty :) |
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| 18:27:58 | <EvanR> | :t \x y -> fmap catMaybes (sequenceA (intersperse (fmap (const Nothing) y) (map (fmap Just) x))) |
| 18:27:58 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => [f a] -> f b -> f [a] |
| 18:28:33 | <EvanR> | no idea if it works |
| 18:31:28 | <EvanR> | catMaybes <$> sequenceA (intersperse (Nothing <$ y) (map (fmap Just) x)) seems I didn't do jack to the parentheses |
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| 18:33:47 | <EvanR> | (fmap catMaybes . sequenceA . intersperse (Nothing <$ y)) (map (fmap Just) x) |
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| 18:47:39 | <monochrom> | That is slick. |
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| 19:04:49 | <bwe> | [exa]: is this now truly excluding loading the file from the benchmark measurement? https://github.com/benjaminweb/scraper-experiment/blob/main/haskell-scraper/time-it/Main.hs -- Specifically, is this B.readFile strict? |
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| 19:06:32 | <[exa]> | bwe: apparently yes, this says it's strict: https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.12.2.0/docs/Data-ByteString.html#v:readFile |
| 19:06:52 | <EvanR> | with that module imported: Read an entire file strictly into a ByteString. |
| 19:08:01 | <EvanR> | the one in Data.ByteString.Lazy is also called readFile, and the Prelude readFile uses lazy I/O |
| 19:09:32 | <bwe> | [exa]: I noticed zero change in execution time compared to not having factored out the file read |
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| 19:11:26 | <EvanR> | how big is the file |
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| 19:18:23 | <[exa]> | bwe: file reads from OS cache ain't slow |
| 19:19:01 | <bwe> | EvanR: ≈ 1 MB |
| 19:19:20 | <EvanR> | ok yeah could be in i/o cache |
| 19:22:05 | <davean> | [exa]: if file reads from the OS cache isn't slow, you're code isn't fast :) |
| 19:22:38 | <davean> | thats a TLB update at least! |
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| 19:51:59 | <[exa]> | bwe: btw you could mmap it, that avoids a copy of the 1MB and a few syscalls |
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| 20:14:22 | <dminuoso> | Hecate: Hey, it was DENOG meetup night :) |
| 20:14:25 | <dminuoso> | So bit of networking |
| 20:14:30 | <dminuoso> | In all senses of the word. |
| 20:15:51 | <Rembane> | \o/ |
| 20:16:27 | <dminuoso> | o/ |
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| 20:20:59 | <dminuoso> | davean: Mmm, I wonder how much overhead is lost in the syscall before it gets to decide it just needs to update a page table |
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| 21:03:13 | <davean> | dminuoso: that varies by how you do it and the OS, its *the* reasom for MMAP being faster |
| 21:04:13 | <davean> | The best case scenario is the TLB update, but that happens post-mapping and we get into vsdo territory |
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| 23:00:47 | × | poscat quits (~poscat@user/poscat) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:01:01 | → | sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 23:01:24 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
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| 23:06:30 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:07:06 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 23:10:29 | × | nicole quits (ilbelkyr@libera/staff/ilbelkyr) (Quit: :tiuQ) |
| 23:13:39 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:13:43 | × | j1n37- quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Quit: Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen) |
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| 23:24:08 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 23:41:54 | × | acidjnk quits (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f82b1a7b7770d6278be.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:43:50 | × | notzmv quits (~daniel@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:45:09 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:45:30 | → | sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
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| 23:55:01 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 23:57:07 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-05-21.