Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2025-05-24 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:42:56 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> f x -> f (t xs) -> f (t (x:xs))
00:42:56 <haskellbridge> what could this be
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01:34:57 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> EvanR: if I'm an edgelord, I now have at least a specious argument for why using Haskell is an existential necessity
01:36:35 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> the question about rogue AIs is not a question of if, but when and how bad, owing to the fact that AI is being democratized and is becoming trainable on increasingly cheaper software
01:37:50 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> we maiy end up getting to the stage where someone having a bad day with a $1000 GPU could instantiate a rogue AI very cheaply, consider rampage/spree violence as an example of people actually having similar motivations
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01:39:00 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> high correctness languages like Haskell provide insulation against the effects of rogue AI, allowing social safety mechanisms, like police AI, to neutralize the threat before too much harm is done
01:39:21 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> dynamically and weakly typed languages are now an existential threat >:)
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01:41:33 <haskellbridge> <sm> I don't think a static type system has any preference for safe/non-rogue actions :)
01:42:02 <haskellbridge> <sm> particular software might (try to)
01:42:34 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> in truth, I told you about my interaction with a Haskell luminary in some Galapagos community, right?
01:43:21 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> He moved onto AI and said in a group chat that from the point of view of AI, there is no difference between generated Rust or Haskell (other than Claude and DeepSeek STILL can't generate a proper Brick snake due to confusion regarding the API)
01:43:26 <haskellbridge> <sm> by "you" do you mean me, or the generic Internet :)
01:44:13 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> I trust him, I'm forward-looking, so I'm trying to look for reasons why Haskell is still relevant when the US earmarked $500 billion (including from non-government sources) for AGI / ASI development
01:45:01 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> readability and comprehensibility, as monochrom explains, matters a lot, and code that humans can understand and make safe is now an existential necessity
01:45:36 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> of course the argument is specious as maerwald's pointed out fundamental problems in Haskell's execution model
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02:29:56 <monochrom> Yeah the leap from "type-safe" to "three-laws-safe" is unsubstantiated.
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02:40:42 <Axman6> ok, I guess things have changes a lot since I last needed to do this - how do I start a repl with a package in scope? I can't figure out how to do it with either cabal repl or ghci
02:40:58 <Axman6> d*
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02:41:20 <Axman6> just want to do it in a dir without a cabal file
02:41:28 <monochrom> Is it something like cabal repl -b base -b random ?
02:41:52 <Axman6> urgh, I thought I tried that. I guess not
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03:10:08 <haskellbridge> <sm> generally cabal does useful things only inside cabal projects ?
03:11:24 <geekosaur> `cabal install` only does useful things _outside_ cabal projects 🙂
03:11:39 <haskellbridge> <sm> or so I thought.. right "cabal install", cabal scripts are some of the exceptions
03:12:10 <haskellbridge> <sm> install is useful inside projects too
03:12:53 <monochrom> generally, everything is not a project.
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03:14:17 <haskellbridge> <sm> Axman6, how about something like: cd; cabal install --lib PKG; ghci -package PKG ?
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03:17:36 <monochrom> Recently I ran into an instance when "cabal install --lib PKG" turns on non-default flags for PKG that are not turned on by "-b PKG" or "build-depends: PKG".
03:18:26 <monochrom> Now I run "cabal repl -b PKG" then exit it then hand-edit the environment file myself.
03:20:43 <monochrom> --lib is getting no love and is slowly becoming broken one bit at a time as a side effect of cabal gaining other features outside --lib but somehow --lib is affected and of course the devs want to scaremonger you into not using --lib so they are not interested in fixing it.
03:22:08 <haskellbridge> <sm> well they're right I think. Glad to see the explanation when you use it at least
03:22:28 <haskellbridge> <sm> I confirm "cabal install --lib random; cabal repl -b random" works, but better practice would be to add --package-env maybe
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03:23:52 <haskellbridge> <sm> removing the global environment file now before I forget
03:24:12 <monochrom> I wasn't saying that --lib "didn't work". But it turns on non-default flags and suddenly time and space are wasted on downloading and building non-default dependencies because for example testing is enabled.
03:24:53 <haskellbridge> <sm> and for completeness, with stack it's "stack repl --package random"
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03:25:38 <haskellbridge> <sm> monochrom yes, good to know; I was just confirming my theory for Axman6
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03:28:15 <haskellbridge> <sm> I guess it's simpler with stack because ~/.stack/global-project/stack.yaml sets one default package db & ghc version. Couldn't cabal do something more like that ?
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04:36:16 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
04:36:58 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
04:39:07 → takuan joins (~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be)
04:40:55 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: peterbecich)
04:41:21 → peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
04:41:53 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
04:42:49 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
04:43:12 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
04:48:17 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
04:51:11 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
04:51:35 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
04:52:41 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
04:56:13 → poscat0x04 joins (~poscat@user/poscat)
04:56:19 → Lord_of_Life_ joins (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
04:56:52 × Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
04:56:53 → xff0x joins (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:6950:4692:fe46:5eb2)
04:57:41 Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
04:58:02 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
04:58:41 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
04:59:04 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
04:59:17 × poscat quits (~poscat@user/poscat) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
05:00:51 → Square joins (~Square@user/square)
05:02:25 × Square quits (~Square@user/square) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:02:25 × Square3 quits (~Square@user/square) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:02:47 → Square joins (~Square@user/square)
05:04:58 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:05:19 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
05:08:28 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
05:11:19 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:11:39 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
05:13:21 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
05:17:20 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:17:42 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
05:22:59 × tzh quits (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: kjdkjsb)
05:24:12 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
05:24:23 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:24:45 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
05:29:15 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
05:29:30 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:29:52 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
05:30:14 × haritz quits (~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in)
05:32:53 × j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
05:33:25 → tzh joins (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
05:35:37 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
05:35:59 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
05:37:37 → j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37)
05:37:52 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
05:39:45 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:40:05 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
05:42:41 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
05:42:56 → peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
05:43:16 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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05:49:34 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:49:56 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
05:53:37 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
05:55:04 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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05:56:33 × arahael quits (~arahael@user/arahael) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
05:56:39 × jmcantrell quits (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
05:57:00 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:57:21 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
05:58:43 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
06:04:48 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:05:13 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
06:08:00 × Square quits (~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
06:09:25 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
06:11:53 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
06:12:16 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
06:16:37 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
06:18:48 × bitdex quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
06:19:33 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:19:58 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
06:20:49 × Frostillicus quits (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
06:22:47 → Frostillicus joins (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
06:24:20 × harveypwca quits (~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c) (Quit: Leaving)
06:25:50 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
06:26:19 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
06:27:28 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
06:32:40 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
06:33:03 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:33:27 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
06:38:32 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
06:38:52 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
06:38:56 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
06:39:37 → euandreh joins (~Thunderbi@2804:d59:892b:6600:cfc9:47d1:96e8:b32d)
06:41:07 → tromp joins (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:30a6:c51d:9dbb:1dc5)
06:43:34 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
06:43:38 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
06:44:00 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
06:47:19 × j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
06:49:31 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:49:52 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
06:50:36 <jle`> .b 1
06:51:33 → j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37)
06:54:40 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
06:57:02 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:57:32 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
06:59:38 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
07:00:05 × caconym7 quits (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
07:00:44 → caconym7 joins (~caconym@user/caconym)
07:01:53 → euandreh1 joins (~Thunderbi@189.6.105.228)
07:02:25 × euandreh quits (~Thunderbi@2804:d59:892b:6600:cfc9:47d1:96e8:b32d) (Quit: euandreh)
07:03:22 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
07:03:33 → euandreh joins (~Thunderbi@2804:d59:892b:6600:cfc9:47d1:96e8:b32d)
07:03:44 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
07:06:24 × euandreh1 quits (~Thunderbi@189.6.105.228) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
07:09:28 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
07:09:52 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
07:10:29 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
07:12:46 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
07:15:29 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
07:16:06 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
07:16:28 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
07:23:17 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
07:23:39 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
07:24:54 × olivial quits (~benjaminl@user/benjaminl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
07:25:10 → olivial joins (~benjaminl@user/benjaminl)
07:25:51 → humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
07:26:13 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
07:30:24 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
07:30:46 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
07:31:14 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
07:33:04 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
07:35:14 × j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
07:36:57 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
07:37:19 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
07:39:14 → j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37)
07:39:52 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
07:42:24 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
07:42:48 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
07:43:03 → srazkvt joins (~sarah@user/srazkvt)
07:44:53 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
07:47:14 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
07:47:36 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
07:48:39 × Frostillicus quits (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
07:50:01 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
07:50:25 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
07:54:24 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
07:54:46 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
07:55:04 → ljdarj joins (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj)
07:55:40 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
07:57:40 → euandreh1 joins (~Thunderbi@189.6.105.228)
07:58:49 × jathan quits (~jathan@69.61.93.38) (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
07:59:25 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
07:59:48 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
08:00:24 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
08:00:32 × euandreh quits (~Thunderbi@2804:d59:892b:6600:cfc9:47d1:96e8:b32d) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
08:00:32 euandreh1 is now known as euandreh
08:04:27 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
08:04:47 → humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
08:04:49 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
08:09:34 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
08:10:14 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
08:11:13 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
08:11:35 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
08:13:26 → Frostillicus joins (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
08:15:04 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
08:16:49 × Digit quits (~user@user/digit) (Remote host closed the connection)
08:17:14 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
08:20:44 × Frostillicus quits (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
08:21:52 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
08:22:13 → lxsameer joins (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer)
08:22:40 × j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
08:25:06 → j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37)
08:25:41 × tzh quits (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
08:26:02 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
08:26:23 × ridcully quits (~ridcully@pd951f029.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: WeeChat 4.6.2)
08:26:41 → ridcully joins (~ridcully@pd951f029.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
08:27:29 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
08:27:52 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
08:30:59 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
08:31:36 → vanishingideal joins (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal)
08:33:33 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
08:33:55 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
08:36:11 → __monty__ joins (~toonn@user/toonn)
08:36:53 → Frostillicus joins (~Frostilli@71.174.119.69)
08:38:29 × euandreh quits (~Thunderbi@189.6.105.228) (Quit: euandreh)
08:38:42 → euandreh joins (~Thunderbi@189.6.105.228)
08:38:44 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
08:39:08 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
08:40:54 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
08:45:37 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
08:45:59 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
08:47:30 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
08:47:32 → CiaoSen joins (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db)
08:49:11 → emmanuelux joins (~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux)
08:52:47 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
08:53:09 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
08:57:24 → Tuplanolla joins (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
08:58:55 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
09:00:34 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
09:00:59 → sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
09:04:03 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
09:04:20 × vanishingideal quits (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
09:06:37 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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09:19:34 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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09:45:57 sam113102 is now known as sam113101
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09:52:16 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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10:02:18 × Digit quits (~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
10:02:25 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
10:02:28 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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10:08:33 × ft quits (~ft@p3e9bc106.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving)
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10:15:01 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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10:18:43 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
10:19:31 → Frostillicus joins (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
10:21:55 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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10:28:55 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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10:34:11 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
10:34:24 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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10:47:12 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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11:00:04 × caconym7 quits (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
11:01:36 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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11:03:45 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
11:08:24 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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11:14:08 × tromp quits (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:30a6:c51d:9dbb:1dc5) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
11:14:23 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
11:15:50 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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11:19:49 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
11:22:16 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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11:25:40 × puke quits (~puke@user/puke) (Quit: puke)
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11:28:57 → Everything joins (~Everythin@77.120.244.38)
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11:33:46 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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11:35:14 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
11:38:40 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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11:45:01 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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11:45:55 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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11:50:28 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
11:51:47 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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11:58:44 × wootehfoot quits (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
12:00:07 × CiaoSen quits (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
12:01:28 × takuan quits (~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
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12:04:50 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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12:06:39 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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12:07:58 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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12:11:59 × euandreh quits (~Thunderbi@189.6.105.228) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
12:13:58 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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12:17:43 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
12:19:53 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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12:22:41 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
12:23:03 → euandreh joins (~Thunderbi@189.6.105.228)
12:26:04 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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12:32:43 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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12:38:34 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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12:40:16 × euphores quits (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.)
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12:42:48 × chiselfuse quits (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
12:48:13 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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12:49:18 → euphores joins (~SASL_euph@user/euphores)
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12:50:14 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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12:54:43 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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12:56:15 → Frostillicus joins (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
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13:03:57 → _________ joins (~nobody@user/noodly)
13:04:21 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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13:10:14 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
13:10:59 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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13:22:03 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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13:25:48 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
13:29:31 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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13:36:33 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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13:41:14 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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13:55:15 × Frostillicus quits (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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13:57:43 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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13:59:17 × euandreh quits (~Thunderbi@189.6.105.228) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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14:01:46 euandreh1 is now known as euandreh
14:04:32 × sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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16:27:10 <talismanick> If there was an infix shorthand for flip, what would it ideally be?
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16:29:35 <TMA> talismanick: I would suggest ><
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16:47:29 <EvanR> but flip is unary
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16:48:53 <EvanR> -- looking at fits data block format it says the header is always a 2880 byte metadata block of text followed by optional 2880 byte data block
16:48:57 <EvanR> I'm like that's random
16:49:14 <EvanR> divide by 8 to see how many words I can fit in there
16:49:15 <EvanR> 360
16:49:16 <EvanR> oh
16:49:24 <EvanR> it's babylonian tech
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16:56:01 <talismanick> EvanR: technically it's ternary, no? And, it can behave like a binary operator when composing higher-order functions in pointfree code
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16:56:18 <EvanR> :t flip
16:56:19 <lambdabot> (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
16:56:44 <EvanR> (a -> b -> c) -> (b -> a -> c) 😎
16:56:49 <talismanick> which is actually why I was thinking to myself "it'd be nice to have infix synonyms for flip and const to clean up parens"
16:57:16 <EvanR> it might work but adds to "haskell has too many operators" gripes
16:58:16 <EvanR> I like >< for composing relations, think inner join
16:58:21 <talismanick> I personally like APL-family languages, which amp that up to 11 lol
16:58:23 <EvanR> er, cross join
16:58:40 <EvanR> APL definitely owns up to it
16:59:02 <EvanR> but they have a more or less understood repertoire of symbols
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16:59:14 <EvanR> while haskell has "I made this up last week and no one uses it"
16:59:24 <talismanick> modern APL (Dyalog, etc), J, and BQN have implicit support for combinator composition without any operators, actually
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16:59:30 <talismanick> which I personally am a big fan of
16:59:35 <EvanR> yes, pointless style
16:59:57 <talismanick> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/codereport/Content/main/Publications/Combinatory_Logic_and_Combinators_in_Array_Languages.pdf
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17:00:22 <talismanick> this paper compares them to each other and to Haskell
17:00:36 <EvanR> the "operators" I see on the first few pages are all recognizably APL
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17:01:05 <EvanR> while >< is not currency at this time in haskell as far as I know
17:01:14 <EvanR> unlike <>
17:01:37 <talismanick> >< feels like it should have meaning dual to <>
17:02:03 <talismanick> like how >$< is to contravariant as <$> is to covariant
17:02:09 <EvanR> Cosemigroup a => a -> (a, a)
17:02:53 <talismanick> ah, but Haskell only has trivial comonoids
17:02:59 <EvanR> which is again unary
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17:04:24 <EvanR> clone :: Something a => a -> (a,a)
17:04:30 <talismanick> and, more pertinently, just join (,)
17:04:45 <talismanick> or (,) >>= id if you don't like prefixing it with flip
17:04:55 <EvanR> monads?
17:05:17 <talismanick> :t join (,)
17:05:18 <lambdabot> b -> (b, b)
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17:09:19 <EvanR> > join (,) 'c'
17:09:20 <lambdabot> ('c','c')
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17:17:10 <talismanick> EvanR: there's an argument - intermediate to the paper's, which is that Haskell (or derivatives) should make combinators implicit to reduce noise in pointfree code - to be made that if haskell is going to have (<*>) as S, then it should additionally support BCKW with operators
17:17:57 <EvanR> what do you mean make combinators implicit
17:18:06 <talismanick> B is (.), C is flip, W is join - https://combinatorylogic.com/table.html
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17:19:45 <talismanick> EvanR: you'll see what I mean when you read the paper
17:19:52 <talismanick> about hooks, forks, and trains
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17:20:43 <EvanR> I started to read about those in modern day APLs
17:21:00 <talismanick> it implicitly parenthesizes function juxtapositions (without the need for ((.) . (. (.) .))-type spam) in those languages
17:21:11 <EvanR> I remember when first starting haskell bringing up the limitation of every function being single input single output
17:21:38 <EvanR> and people said it would be too complicated to have more than one output
17:21:43 <EvanR> or input
17:21:45 <talismanick> that is to say, it's function application itself which is overloaded
17:22:27 <EvanR> then later we got Arrows and it was confirmed
17:22:48 <talismanick> arrows are moreso the "wrong" abstraction
17:22:54 <talismanick> at least as they were originally implemented
17:23:11 <talismanick> there was an alternative basis of just three operators derived at some point IIRC
17:23:16 <talismanick> (2012 or so?)
17:23:27 <talismanick> but around the time that lenses were really taking off anyways
17:24:24 <EvanR> I like the apl binary operator sensibility that in _ op _ the left operand is modulating or configuring the operation and the right operand is the "real argument", not sure how universally that applies but it sounds manageable
17:24:33 <talismanick> and it was later derived that arrows are strong profunctors, which would've dovetailed nicely if integrating the work on profunctor optics hadn't stalled
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17:25:46 <EvanR> I will see how it turns out in the thing I'm working on now which will let you chain array operations
17:25:56 <talismanick> right - it's a strong intuition, first made explicit in J, that we're missing an aspect of spoken language when talking about verbs, etc that we don't really have adverbs in ours languages
17:26:16 <talismanick> in our programming languages*
17:26:56 <EvanR> if function is a verb (sometimes dubious) then higher order functions are adverbs
17:26:57 <talismanick> I like how BQN handles these topics
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17:27:30 <talismanick> not least because it makes everything so much less foreign that its choices were guided by a desire to keep the grammar context-free
17:28:40 <EvanR> :t join @((->) Int)
17:28:40 <talismanick> yes, but it becomes complicated by rank polymorphism (which is itself quite powerful in reducing verbosity and communicating intent but hard to square with static typing)
17:28:41 <lambdabot> error: parse error on input ‘->’
17:29:22 <EvanR> rank is one of several things you can represent in the type system for arrays
17:29:39 <talismanick> only dependently, no? that's what Remora was about
17:29:57 <monochrom> Belated about flip: I don't think there is benefit in making it infix, because you would need extra parentheses eg (f >< y) x. It is true that flip is conceptually unary---you use it to modify one single function. But if you really like the look of (><) f y x, that's cool too. :)
17:29:59 <EvanR> I'll avoid the D word unless absolutely necessary xD
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17:30:57 <talismanick> it really is such a headache in representing tensoriality lmao
17:31:05 <EvanR> haskell lets you put this information in the type system, but it's still not technically dependently typed, or it depends on politics if we need to or want to emphasize it
17:31:12 <talismanick> arguably, APL is to blame here
17:31:52 <monochrom> Hrm HOF as adverbs. listly :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] ? :)
17:31:58 <EvanR> for array operations the type variables might range over number like things
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17:32:19 <EvanR> but it doesn't necessary mean it needs to be compatible with literal numbers
17:32:29 <monochrom> listly increment [3,1,4] = [3+1, 1+1, 4+1] :)
17:32:30 <EvanR> still lets a lot of things be expressed
17:32:43 <talismanick> insofar as the recieved wisdom on rank polymorphism in various languages (everything thus far has evolved - by a mix of trial and error as well as giving up and resorting to prior art - towards APL's model) has resulted in defaulting to requiring a choice of basis when encoding tensors
17:33:23 <int-e> monochrom: bonus points if it reverses the list
17:33:44 <int-e> for *checks notes* efficiency
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17:35:04 <talismanick> e.g. Julia in their arraypocalypse release - https://github.com/JuliaLang/LinearAlgebra.jl/issues/255
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17:37:01 <talismanick> they tried to reinvent array handling in a way idiomatic to the language's Lisp/CLOS (multiple dispatch, first-class dynamic types, etc) roots before deciding APL had already "gotten it right"
17:37:18 <talismanick> insofar as rank polymorphism goes
17:37:34 <monochrom> More meta-ly, I am skeptic of going out of your way to fit "1st-order function -> verb, hof -> adverb", etc. Sure, when you can do it in easy cases, that's nice. But you will run into limits, natural languages never came remotely close to the depth of programming languages and type systems. (Do they have a whole hierarchy of nth-order adverbs for each n, like we have a whole hierarchy of nth-order functions for each n?)
17:37:35 <haskellbridge> <sm> 👀
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17:39:00 <EvanR> adverbs are already overloaded
17:39:12 <EvanR> since they ad-verbs and adjectives and other adverbs
17:39:15 <talismanick> monochrom: right, your choices are to either hardcode it for each natural (kind of like how there's (,), (,,), (,,,), etc up to... 17, was it?) or figure out a clever inductive kind of encoding
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17:39:30 <EvanR> so adverbs are like the universe containing itself
17:39:34 <talismanick> something something Day convolution?
17:39:41 <talismanick> idek
17:40:30 <EvanR> the boat is undeniably absolutely unsinkable
17:40:34 <talismanick> the sort of reference frame thinking you need to include from the begnning in language design, arguably
17:41:01 <EvanR> that's right associated so I'll come up with an adverb adverbing another adverb directly
17:41:28 <monochrom> Exactly, English just merges all adverbs into one single level. For no reason apart from lack of imagination. So why not also merge adverbs with verbs? I am trying to say that natural languages are irrational and ad hoc in the first place, why shoehorn a beatifully designed programming language into that mess.
17:41:37 <EvanR> get out very promptly
17:41:52 <talismanick> EvanR: well, rank polymorphism (or something like it) could perhaps be phrased in the language of enriched categories
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17:42:55 <EvanR> that's an insult to irrational numbers, which are well principled and non ad hoc at all
17:42:59 <talismanick> some way of giving composition rules structure without muddying the object language-metalanguage distinction to the point of incoherence
17:43:37 <EvanR> am I reading that julia dropped some of its type level detail?
17:44:24 <EvanR> also >transposing a vector returns a covector ok...
17:44:34 <talismanick> well, you could say that it made a choice to standardize on APL-style behavior for array operations
17:45:02 <EvanR> which behavior exactly, because even APLs disagree on array behavior
17:45:53 <EvanR> the behavior of rank?
17:46:03 <talismanick> yeah, rank polymorphism/broadcasting
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17:47:01 <talismanick> as opposed to having operations on collections be a matter of generic-as-possible multiple dispatch like everything else in the language
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17:49:12 <talismanick> "transpose of a vector is a covector" is an example of a more algebraically-principled approach like I gestured towards when I asserted that APL's solution to encoding bulk operations in light of tensorial structure might actually go too far in semantic assumptions
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17:50:13 <talismanick> arrays/rank-polymorphism <-> choice of basis with explicit dimensions, etc
17:51:19 <talismanick> for a statically-typed language, that is
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17:51:59 <talismanick> Conal Elliott has written about this
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17:52:10 <monochrom> I heard that when applying category theory to linear algebra, naturality becomes being independent of the choice of basis.
17:54:11 <talismanick> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-space is a step in that direction
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17:55:05 <monochrom> Hrm, next time someone asks "does Haskell have machine learning libraries" may I answer "yes, it's called vector-space"? >:)
17:55:25 <monochrom> Also next time when someone asks about quantum computing libraries >:) >:)
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17:56:15 <talismanick> now we need someone to hook that up together with https://gitlab.com/sheaf/fir as a highly-optimizing backend
17:56:39 <monochrom> (That's what I have been telling first-year students. You want CG? It's linear algebra again. You want ML? It's linear algebra again. You want quantum computing? It's linear algebra again, and this time with complex numbers too!)
17:57:50 <talismanick> rewriting ML in terms of infinite-dimensional function spaces could be powerful if only there existed a modicum of a guarantee that if you follow this-this-and-that algebraic restriction you'll get efficient compilation to the GPU
17:57:56 <monochrom> Hrm why did they call it FIR?
17:58:04 <talismanick> no clue lol
17:58:13 <monochrom> heh OK
17:58:38 <talismanick> and the last commit was a year ago
17:58:40 <monochrom> Well ML just needs 10^10-dimensional for now.
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17:58:46 <int-e> . o O ( it's a tree )
17:58:50 <talismanick> yeah, exactly lol
17:59:48 <monochrom> I grew up in a very urban city (Hong Kong) so I never paid attention to tree species and names, be it in English or Chinese.
18:00:17 <talismanick> like, at what point do you start getting better results with automated optimizations when you instead write "assume we have a Banach space with these additional properties giving us reasonably-fast convergence for special cases x, y, & z"?
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18:02:12 <monochrom> (Instead I paid attention to distinguishing between fast food franchises heh.)
18:02:34 <talismanick> and whatever happened to all that talk of the manifold hypothesis, anyways? do they still tag on some arbitrarily high dimension rather than speaking of (uniformly-convergent?) sequences of spaces because infinite-dimensional manifolds are too much of a pain to be worth the extra effort?
18:04:11 <monochrom> What is the manifold hypothesis?
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18:04:48 <EvanR> it's the 100 - 0 rule, 100% of the practical value comes from 0% of the possibly dimensions
18:05:07 <talismanick> for neural nets, the data is internally encoded in long, long vectors of floats
18:05:18 <monochrom> Ah. Thanks.
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18:05:51 <monochrom> Wait why is it not called simply "the linear algebra hypothesis"? :)
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18:07:06 <talismanick> which - for some arbitrarily-large n - maps trivially onto an n-manifold (some arbitrarily curved and connected space with the restriction that it be locally similar to R^n, so calculus is possible)
18:07:07 <EvanR> I wish my linear algebra course prefaced the innumerable matrix exercises with "this is used in literally everything ever so pay attention"
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18:07:51 <talismanick> and training it means walking this manifold surface with calculus to find a manifold with much smaller n
18:08:14 <talismanick> find a submanifold*
18:08:25 <monochrom> Although, I now recall a talk from which I learned that research on the brain does model collected data as an n-dim manifold (if there are n measuring probes).
18:09:07 <monochrom> (so not just linear algebra, but also diff geom and topology)
18:10:50 <talismanick> isn't topology only explicitly used in rarer techniques like persistent homology/TDA?
18:11:09 <monochrom> I don't know anything beyond that.
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18:12:07 <EvanR> does haskell have killer webapps
18:12:12 <EvanR> yes, vector-space
18:12:20 <monochrom> hee hee was going to say
18:12:37 <talismanick> but yeah, the manifold hypothesis is the principle raison d'etre for "geometric deep learing", which tries to bring diffgeo into machine learning
18:14:14 <talismanick> there's also categorical cybernetics, which helps bring up work closer to direct implementation in Haskell
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18:15:08 <monochrom> I misread that as "direct manipulation" because I was primed by "cybernetics".
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18:15:28 <monochrom> "Haskell can directly manipulate me!" Now that's a killer app. Literally.
18:15:52 <EvanR> you heard of cloud haskell, now we can have cyberhaskell
18:15:57 <talismanick> some of the work in that line even explicitly mentioned a blogpost which demonstrated that reverse-mode automatic differentiation ("backprop" to the heathen masses) has the type of a(n unlawful) lens lol
18:15:57 <EvanR> who may or may not terminate
18:16:31 <talismanick> https://www.philipzucker.com/reverse-mode-differentiation-is-kind-of-like-a-lens-ii/
18:17:20 <EvanR> cloudhaskell : skynet :: cyberhaskell : terminator
18:17:40 <talismanick> https://cybercat.institute/
18:17:54 <talismanick> https://cybercat.institute/blog/
18:18:11 <EvanR> I've been seeing a lot of safety and governance stuff lately
18:18:23 <EvanR> why does this seem like a ship has sailed sort of area
18:18:52 <EvanR> by the time the funding goes through something has already broken out of the lab
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18:20:29 <EvanR> in order of decreasing responsiveness: web 2.0, AI stuff, safety theory, legal framework, congressional clue
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18:33:46 <monochrom> BTW Bryon Cook et al. made an automated verification method for checking termination. It is good for "for i from a to b step k" loops. They call the tool Terminator. The method uses linear algebra again.
18:34:06 <monochrom> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221402998_Terminator_Beyond_Safety for example, or generally search for "Byron Cook Terminator".
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18:38:12 <EvanR> preconditions: b is finite
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18:38:29 <EvanR> result follows
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21:57:11 <euouae> Hello does anyone know how to get rid of the linter popup stuff on haskell-mode?
21:57:24 <euouae> I'd like to only look at it if I want to, in a separate buffer, but other than that, it's really ruinign the exeprience
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21:58:26 <monochrom> I don't know. But I guess I never ran into it because I never installed hlint.
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22:01:43 <monochrom> Maybe "Haskell Check Command" aka haskell-check-command (the variable) but I haven't tested it.
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22:03:13 <euouae> thank you
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22:04:12 <euouae> Hm, I changed `haskell-check-command' to `true`. We'll see.
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22:19:02 <tomsmeding> euouae: you have to set the language server option 'haskell.plugin.hlint.globalOn' to false
22:19:17 <tomsmeding> how you do this precisely depends on the editor https://haskell-language-server.readthedocs.io/en/stable/configuration.html
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22:45:10 <euouae> tomsmeding: thank you
22:46:29 <euouae> I wrote this code to show how to make a menu
22:46:29 <euouae> https://gist.github.com/createyourpersonalaccount/d69159f87fadd2cf2241349ee42d3eef
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22:47:04 <euouae> but I'm stuck: there's no way to have partial choices, so how could the user navigate a menu? E.g. Animal>Anthropod as a choice, before choosing 'Crab' from the list
22:47:27 <euouae> It seems that I have to either decouple Animal from its classes, or duplicate with MenuAnimal or similar
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23:01:05 <euouae> I think the solution is to decouple them all and turn them into derived Enum's
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All times are in UTC on 2025-05-24.