Logs on 2025-05-30 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:14:49 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 00:19:59 | ljdarj1 | is now known as ljdarj |
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| 00:36:19 | × | califax quits (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 00:37:21 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 00:52:23 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 01:20:04 | × | emmanuelux quits (~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 01:20:50 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 01:35:44 | × | Guest8 quits (~Guest8@141.11.146.67) (Client Quit) |
| 01:37:21 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 04:06:03 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 05:36:44 | <c_wraith> | hellwolf: it's so you can test code halfway through a rewrite to make sure that the parts you've updated work without worrying that the parts you haven't updated are currently broken |
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| 05:37:54 | <c_wraith> | I don't remember if there's a complementary way to defer name errors so that changing the names of things won't break stuff either. |
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| 06:05:28 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> okay, I guess some people do WIP code like that |
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| 06:20:46 | <Leary> | IIRC HLS also relies on it. |
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| 09:39:32 | <absence> | Is there a more elegant way to deal with simplified subsumption than e.g. "fmap (\x -> x) stuff"? |
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| 13:07:12 | <absence> | Is it possible to implement a function with the type "Functor f => (forall a. f (f a)) -> f (forall a. f a)", or does it only work in the other direction? |
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| 13:50:54 | <EvanR> | absence, is that an impredicative type |
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| 13:54:46 | <EvanR> | i'm curious how you'd even go the other way |
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| 13:59:49 | <absence> | EvanR: With eta expansion, e.g. "f a = fmap (\b -> b) a". |
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| 14:08:05 | <EvanR> | I see that that fails the other way because a skolem would escape |
| 14:09:17 | <absence> | A what? :D |
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| 14:09:36 | <__monty__> | :t fmap id |
| 14:09:36 | <lambdabot> | Functor f => f b -> f b |
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| 14:09:54 | <__monty__> | How does that move the `forall a` outwards? |
| 14:10:23 | <absence> | __monty__: I think it doesn't if you use "id". |
| 14:10:25 | <Leary> | If you think of it as `f (forall a -> f a) -> forall a -> f (f a)` it's pretty straightforward. That also pretty well tells you the other direction won't happen for an arbitrary `Functor`, but it might for, say, a `Distributive` or `Representable` functor. |
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| 14:11:22 | <__monty__> | :t id |
| 14:11:22 | <lambdabot> | a -> a |
| 14:11:26 | <__monty__> | :t (\x -> x) |
| 14:11:27 | <lambdabot> | p -> p |
| 14:11:37 | <__monty__> | Why are those different? |
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| 14:12:17 | <EvanR> | __monty__, when you enable RankNTypes there are new types that won't get inferred, but you can put them explicitly. ImpredicativeTypes extends this further |
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| 14:14:38 | <EvanR> | id :: a -> (forall b . b) is a cromulent version of id under impredicative types because whatever you pick for a can be picked for the result type now or later |
| 14:15:47 | <absence> | Leary: That makes more sense, yes! |
| 14:15:55 | <EvanR> | or this is totally wrong |
| 14:17:00 | <__monty__> | But that allows functions that aren't id at all! >: O |
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| 14:19:59 | <absence> | Leary: Well, it doesn't work straightforwardly... https://play.haskell.org/saved/LTrEb1Ja |
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| 14:25:14 | <Leary> | __monty__: The parts of the `\x -> x` lambda that differ from `id` are just implicit: https://play.haskell.org/saved/ZbgqesrC |
| 14:25:31 | <Leary> | absence: I wouldn't presume it to be straight-forward; I'd guess you need to cook up the right newtype. |
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| 14:28:32 | <Leary> | (hiding the `forall` inside so it doesn't gum up the works) |
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| 16:54:20 | <EvanR> | back in the day I asked people what is the difference between a macro and a function and why can't macros just be functions. I got results like macro generates code function doesn't... which while learning haskell I was not convinced by |
| 16:54:40 | <EvanR> | yesterday I finally answered my own question running into of all things this example in C |
| 16:55:05 | <EvanR> | #define f(x,y) = x + y |
| 16:55:19 | <EvanR> | 3 * f(2,1) |
| 16:55:40 | <EvanR> | a difference between functions and macros |
| 16:55:47 | <EvanR> | of some sort |
| 16:55:48 | <geekosaur> | the original unhygienic macro system 😛 |
| 16:56:39 | <int-e> | EvanR: pretty sure 3 * = 2 + 1 is a parse error |
| 16:56:49 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 16:56:54 | <EvanR> | #define f(x,y) x + y |
| 16:57:09 | <ystael> | parse errors are also unhygienic. covered in E.coli. ew. |
| 16:58:02 | <ystael> | a Lisper might say this is because C has only `unquote-splicing` and not plain `unquote` |
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| 17:08:58 | <EvanR> | after reading about scheme hygienic macros it sounds like a function again |
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| 17:09:25 | <EvanR> | the macro gets its own lexically scoped environment and fresh bound variables |
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| 17:15:14 | <geekosaur> | I think scheme macros are closer to TH than textual macros like CPP's |
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| 17:15:56 | <geekosaur> | but it's harder to tell because scheme's designed so everything has the same representation (sexps): language, macros, data |
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| 17:19:18 | <geekosaur> | this doesn't seem to be a common viewpoint but I distinguish between macros (can play games with the underlying language) and metalanguage (can't unless specific (well-behaved/hygienic) facilities are provided for it) |
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| 17:29:09 | <__monty__> | Are macros just a dynamically typed metalanguage? |
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| 17:31:51 | <geekosaur> | not really, cpp and m4 are purely text substitution of various forms |
| 17:32:16 | <geekosaur> | m4 does have limited dynamically-typed evaluation, but cpp doesn't evaluate at all |
| 17:33:25 | <geekosaur> | so I'd say m4 is a limited-scope metalanguage, c++ templates and concepts are a limited-scope metalanguage, TH and Scheme macros are full metalanguages |
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| 17:35:14 | <geekosaur> | dhall is also a limited-scope metalanguage to my way of thinking fwiw |
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| 17:37:10 | <geekosaur> | m4's the gray area here because it's primarily text substitution but the fact that it can evaluate and modify the substitutions it does (including using the results of evaluation) means it straddles an admittedly weak barrier |
| 17:37:19 | <EvanR> | there's the # operator and the ## operator which do something, if you don't want to call it evaluation xD |
| 17:37:46 | <geekosaur> | what differentiates it from an actual metaanguage is that text substitution is easy and evaluation (and use thereof) requires extra work |
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| 17:38:18 | <geekosaur> | yes but it's purely token manipulation, in particular ## does token pasting |
| 17:38:46 | <EvanR> | also cpp does evaluate, e.g. #if expr but that's not the macro system |
| 17:38:51 | <geekosaur> | and both exist solely to allow ANSI cpp to do things that traditional cpp did trivially |
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| 17:39:31 | <EvanR> | traditional cpp? |
| 17:39:46 | <EvanR> | what is this you speak of |
| 17:39:54 | <geekosaur> | the one documented in K&R first edition, which `gcc -E --traditional` mostly emulates |
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| 17:41:07 | <geekosaur> | because it wasn't real smart about what constituted tokens, you could do things like substitute inside quoted strings and paste expansions together to make what the underlying compiler saw as single tokens |
| 17:41:35 | <geekosaur> | ANSI C made both illegal but then relented and added # and ## to re-enable them in what was intended to be a cleaner way |
| 17:42:34 | <geekosaur> | (also adding the automatic concatenation of string literals) |
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| 17:46:43 | <ski> | (i recall, initially, while learning Haskell, forming the question about whether evaluation was "like CPP macros" (what i meant was whether it used dynamic scope or not, hadn't learned that term)) |
| 17:49:18 | <monochrom> | I just taught my students dynamic scoping yesterday because bash functions. (I will teach it again later in another course because principles of programming languages. :) ) |
| 17:49:47 | <monochrom> | <-- fan of BOGO deals >:) |
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| 17:51:30 | <monochrom> | But yeah it takes some careful experiments to distinguish between call-by-name and call-by-need. |
| 17:51:45 | <EvanR> | yes I showed someone some haskell code evaluating and they were like, what is it, operating on syntax? |
| 17:52:10 | <EvanR> | *interesting theory* |
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| 17:53:20 | <monochrom> | My students don't have trouble with me operating on syntax. Mature people understand that the computer uses a compact binary representation and I am just writing in a human-readable format. |
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| 17:54:30 | <monochrom> | Like, do they also describe string operations as "what is it, operating on English?"? |
| 17:54:56 | <mauke> | "Mature people understand that the computer uses a compact binary representation and I am just writing in a human-readable format." <- counterpoint: COBOL |
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| 17:55:08 | <monochrom> | heh |
| 17:55:25 | <monochrom> | But I only need my sentence to be true of Hugs and GHC. |
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| 17:58:43 | <EvanR> | that haskell might as well be operating on syntax (in many cases, ignoring bottom) is referential transparency |
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| 18:00:15 | <EvanR> | (ignoring things that have no syntax, like IORefs) |
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| 22:56:19 | → | Frostillicus joins (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
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| 23:01:09 | × | Frostillicus quits (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
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| 23:37:32 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
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| 23:43:46 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 23:53:18 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-05-30.