Logs on 2025-05-31 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:22:15 | ljdarj1 | is now known as ljdarj |
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| 04:49:18 | <EvanR> | can Array not be empty |
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| 04:58:46 | Lord_of_Life_ | is now known as Lord_of_Life |
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| 05:04:17 | <mauke> | > listArray (0, -1) "" |
| 05:04:18 | <lambdabot> | array (0,-1) [] |
| 05:04:38 | <mauke> | > length $ listArray (0, -1) "" |
| 05:04:39 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
| 05:07:28 | <EvanR> | leet hax |
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| 15:31:35 | <monochrom> | That is either why (first, length) or (first, last + 1) is better than (first, last), or why indexes are Int not Word. |
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| 15:39:54 | <EvanR> | if what goes in the range is really indexes, and a <= b, then it just means it can't be empty which makes more sense |
| 15:40:24 | <EvanR> | if instead we're talking about cells on a euclidean plane, then x coordinate of boundaries would |
| 15:40:36 | <EvanR> | let you have empties |
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| 15:43:17 | <monochrom> | Maybe one may make a case that empty arrays should be banned, but there are all kinds of contexts in which empty ranges are legitimate. |
| 15:45:05 | <monochrom> | Even for arrays the case for non-emptiness is weak. There are legitimate uses of, at least, empty slices of an array. |
| 15:45:50 | <monochrom> | (The same reason as there are legitimate uses of empty substrings of a string.) |
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| 15:49:27 | <EvanR> | an empty range of indexes |
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| 15:50:05 | <EvanR> | like (9,5) (2,-100) (100,50) etc |
| 15:50:21 | <EvanR> | it's carrying a lot of information to nowhere |
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| 15:50:47 | <EvanR> | while it's all semantically the same empty |
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| 15:52:19 | <EvanR> | and python breaks my brain, the blue prince has a grid of 45 rooms labeled 1 through 45, but wait there's room 46. But in python this is range(1,47) |
| 15:52:53 | <EvanR> | 47 is completely inappropriate there |
| 15:53:49 | <EvanR> | now I'm doing off by error backwards |
| 15:53:53 | <EvanR> | one |
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| 16:01:22 | <monochrom> | Of course no one is going to hardcode (9,5). But it is going to be (m,n) where m, n depend on user input, and if you disallow (m,n) to be empty, you are just telling the programmer to write their own boilerplate code for the empty case. |
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| 16:07:00 | <monochrom> | Legitimate use cases for empty ranges are here to stay, they are not going away. Your choice is only either your system/library providing that service once and for all, or telling everyone to re-do it themselves over and over again. |
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| 16:15:15 | <monochrom> | And actually if your system/library supports empty ranges, it is one fewer line of code than you go out of your way to detect and ban them. |
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| 16:42:51 | <EvanR> | and (9,5) isn't even empty, it's 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 |
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| 16:49:35 | <potatoespotatoes> | Hi all! I'm wondering if someone can make a suggestion. I want to have a monad that can be run under two different evaluations schemes. I think this would be a good fit for a free monad (one interface, two interpreters), but I would prefer to just reuse a standard library abstraction like mtl or some effect handler library. |
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| 16:50:34 | <Rembane> | potatoespotatoes: You can build a monad transformer stack using mtl and build two different "interpreters" for them. |
| 16:50:45 | <potatoespotatoes> | an example of this is that I am trying to encapsulate non-determinism in one evaluation, and enumeration as the second evaluation |
| 16:52:09 | <potatoespotatoes> | Rembane: okay, I'll try it out |
| 16:52:29 | <Rembane> | potatoespotatoes: Sweet. Lets see if I can find an example too! |
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| 16:55:39 | <Rembane> | potatoespotatoes: Why do you need monads btw? |
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| 16:56:19 | <monochrom> | mtl and all effect handler library are abstract enough for that. |
| 16:57:08 | <monochrom> | In the case of mtl you use its type classes such as MonadState. In the case of effect libraries, you literally s/interpreter/handler/ |
| 16:59:09 | <monochrom> | Rembane, I think monads cannot be avoided. :) As in, most effects end up being monads whether you like it or not. |
| 16:59:39 | <potatoespotatoes> | monochrom: yeah, I'm realizing this now : ) It's been a few years since I wrote haskell |
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| 16:59:53 | <potatoespotatoes> | Rembane: I'm writing some MCMC samplers |
| 16:59:57 | <Rembane> | monochrom: True, but the other way around. Maybe a too powerful abstraction is chosen here. Which is why I'm poking it. :) |
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| 17:00:31 | <Rembane> | potatoespotatoes: Fun! Monads seems useful there. Good luck! |
| 17:01:15 | <monochrom> | Also in the strong sense that you will find yourself wanting >>= or >=> or join, as opposed to "I won't use its monadness". |
| 17:01:23 | <potatoespotatoes> | I should actually say: I'm trying to /test/ some samplers. they are so annoying >.> |
| 17:01:43 | <potatoespotatoes> | (hence the desire to reinterpret with enumeration) |
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| 18:13:23 | <monochrom> | I give students a small exercise of defining a recursive data type. Up to now I get auto-marking to work by providing a function that has the patterns that suggest the expected data constructor names. (Then you get full marks if that function compiles.) |
| 18:14:30 | <monochrom> | I didn't realize that if I use Generics then I can let students choose whatever constructor names they want and my test code can work with that. >:) |
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| 18:17:03 | <monochrom> | The correct answer goes like "data N a = I a | L [N a]". I should be able to use Generics to code up "you are correct as long as you have one case for the 'a' field and one case for the [N a] field" |
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| 18:24:09 | <Rembane> | That's incredibly pretty. |
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| 18:53:14 | <EvanR> | Generic is one of those "damn typeclasses did it again" things |
| 18:53:37 | <monochrom> | heh |
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| 19:00:56 | <int-e> | EvanR: well, not quite; Generics would be quite cumbersome without the automatic deriving |
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| 19:02:05 | <EvanR> | yeah that too |
| 19:02:21 | <EvanR> | typeclasses without deriving? gross |
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| 20:04:27 | <euouae> | How to debug the error message "Haskell process command errored with: (error "Unexpected response from haskell process.")" on emacs when I start a ghci session |
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| 20:07:26 | <monochrom> | Are you using haskell-mode in emacs? I only know that. I don't know what if you use hls or lsp etc. |
| 20:09:24 | <euouae> | yeah I'musing haskell-mode. I use lsp mode and I have hls installed |
| 20:10:39 | <monochrom> | I only know haskell-mode purely. If you have everything under the sun installed, I don't even know what is actually run and who gave that error message. |
| 20:11:02 | <euouae> | I thought that's the setup |
| 20:11:34 | <euouae> | so how's your setup? disable lsp and hls? |
| 20:11:49 | <monochrom> | I have always used haskell-mode with nothing else (not even its flycheck integration, or hlint, or stack, or...). It's just fine. |
| 20:12:03 | <monochrom> | I'm afraid remote tech support is impossible, as usual. |
| 20:12:26 | <euouae> | I'll try to disable stuff |
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| 20:14:11 | <euouae> | okay I disabled everything but haskell-mode but I still get that error |
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| 20:14:51 | <euouae> | Haskell process command errored with: (error "Unexpected response from haskell process.") haskell-process-get-repl-completions: Invalid ‘:complete’ response |
| 20:15:31 | <EvanR> | matrioshka errors |
| 20:17:05 | <EvanR> | invalid response makes it sound like a version mismatch on the two sides of the protocol but that's a wild guess |
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| 20:19:30 | <euouae> | which side versus which though? |
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| 20:19:51 | <monochrom> | Then you use the variable haskell-process-log to enable more logging, and see if the log tells you something. |
| 20:20:55 | <euouae> | hm, I wonder why that's not on by default |
| 20:21:54 | <euouae> | All I seem to get is <- ghci> Command is not supported (yet) in multi-mode |
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| 20:24:20 | <euouae> | is this all because I chose app + lib in cabal init? |
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| 20:29:24 | <monochrom> | I used to turn that on too. After a while everything has proved to run fine so there is no need. |
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| 20:29:40 | <euouae> | turn what on? |
| 20:29:48 | <monochrom> | haskell-process-log |
| 20:30:05 | <euouae> | it should be on by default |
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| 20:30:34 | <euouae> | At least most emacs packages behave that way, they log by default |
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| 20:32:57 | <euouae> | in any case, I'm not sure what's wrong, I'll have to figure it out |
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| 20:42:41 | <euouae> | yeah that's what it was |
| 20:42:56 | <euouae> | lsp isn't affecting it, it was something about executable + library |
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| 20:56:28 | <monochrom> | You can first check whether `cabal repl` works. (haskell-mode is merely spawning that.) |
| 20:56:58 | <monochrom> | My past experience is that it does, and it defaults to the library component. |
| 20:59:17 | <euouae> | Can I set :set -XOverloadedStrings in my .cabal for ghci? |
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| 20:59:39 | <monochrom> | No. |
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| 21:00:02 | <euouae> | Arlgiht thank you |
| 21:00:32 | <monochrom> | Create a .ghci file in the desired directory instead. |
| 21:00:52 | <EvanR> | you can also put that in the source file |
| 21:01:03 | <monochrom> | At some point it pays to read the GHC user's guide from cover to cover. I know because, only because, I did. |
| 21:01:09 | <EvanR> | normally or as a "ghci only" option |
| 21:01:10 | <euouae> | I have {-# LANGUAGE OverloadedStrings #-} but GHCi didnt seem to pick it up |
| 21:01:32 | <monochrom> | Putting it in the source file doesn't turn it on for what you hand-type in the REPL. |
| 21:01:45 | <euouae> | I was just responding to EvanR |
| 21:01:52 | <monochrom> | I was too! |
| 21:02:12 | <EvanR> | {-# OPTIONS_GHC -XOverloadedStrings #-} |
| 21:02:35 | <EvanR> | ok if there is no source file this does not apply |
| 21:02:54 | <int-e> | hmm, shouldn't the default-extensions field affect `cabal repl`? |
| 21:03:19 | <int-e> | (didn't test, it just feels to me that it *should*) |
| 21:03:22 | <geekosaur> | only for loaded source files, ghci itself separates the repl's own options |
| 21:03:32 | <geekosaur> | see `:set` vs. `:seti` in the users guide |
| 21:03:58 | <euouae> | I'll try the .ghci file route |
| 21:04:25 | <int-e> | I mean, ghci -XMagicHash sets both, doesn't it |
| 21:04:57 | <geekosaur> | cabal's command line has `--repl-options` but there's no way to put it in a cabal file (and technically shouldn't be as the cabal file is about building) or cabal.project (I think there should be, but there isn't at present) |
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| 21:07:12 | <euouae> | I was reading yesterday how to implement a scheme in C |
| 21:07:15 | <euouae> | and today I'm trying to do it in Haskell |
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| 21:07:25 | <euouae> | I'm trying to get some experience with doing stuff like that in Haskell |
| 21:08:55 | <int-e> | I definitely get OverloadedStrings in `cabal repl` from `default-extensions: OverloadedStrings` |
| 21:09:49 | <int-e> | I didn't test too thoroughly (in particular I didn't edit and reload anything) |
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| 21:22:57 | <euouae> | I wonder if I should just set that instead of the .ghci file. It doesn't hurt to also include the {-# LANGUAGE pragmas on top |
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