Logs on 2025-06-03 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:33 | <EvanR> | however now I'm wondering if they are even comparable because the universe is infinite, and dividing infinite space into infinite subspaces is not necessarily less |
| 00:00:42 | <monochrom> | Does it say what is nice about the second way? |
| 00:01:24 | <EvanR> | having the ability to control subtypes and restrict the values in a meticulous way, like liquid haskell |
| 00:01:31 | <EvanR> | they say it would be nice |
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| 00:05:22 | <EvanR> | @where typescript |
| 00:05:23 | <lambdabot> | I know nothing about typescript. |
| 00:06:35 | <monochrom> | I have trouble believing that elixir and typescript have refinement types (what liquid haskell does). (In my world they are called predicate subtypes.) |
| 00:07:36 | <monochrom> | But I wouldn't be surprised if their "subtype" just means the OOP kind, i.e., row subtypes. (A subtype has more fields than the supertype.) |
| 00:08:09 | <monochrom> | In that case, it's just "OOP would be nice". |
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| 00:09:26 | <EvanR> | they can't divide integers up or floats |
| 00:09:57 | <EvanR> | but they can divide e.g. list of a into non-empty list of a and general list of a |
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| 00:10:50 | <EvanR> | and list of a into list of integer, list of float |
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| 00:11:24 | <EvanR> | and through "intersection types" they can divide functions up in weird ways |
| 00:12:05 | <EvanR> | so it goes beyond row types |
| 00:13:42 | <EvanR> | e.g. a function which accepts int or bool and returns string "has type" intersection of int->string and bool->string |
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| 00:22:19 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Scala does something like that with functions in regards to subtypes. Uh |
| 00:22:44 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> There was a term for it, when youre doing generics there, you specify [A+] i think? |
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| 00:23:17 | <monochrom> | covariant, contravariant, invariant |
| 00:23:23 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Exactly |
| 00:23:26 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Thanks |
| 00:23:41 | <EvanR> | looks like I might even be wrong about dividing up the basic types. You could do something like, a type which means exactly some string |
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| 00:23:58 | <EvanR> | then union several of these together to get only string1, string2, or string3 |
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| 00:24:14 | <EvanR> | which is a subtype of the type of "any string" |
| 00:24:18 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> We learned that during a course in uni, just forgot the name. But yeah say "Int | Float" is a superclass of "Int" and also of "Float" than in scala it would work with the functions |
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| 00:24:44 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> *than -> then |
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| 00:25:41 | <EvanR> | Int and Float being subtypes of Int|Float definitely makes more sense than one of them being a subtype of the other |
| 00:25:45 | <monochrom> | In most languages, unlike Haskell, string is a basic type, too. :) |
| 00:26:37 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Like, int is a subtype of float, but encoding that in a programming language is yikes |
| 00:26:47 | <EvanR> | no it is notttttttt |
| 00:26:56 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Assuming infinite size |
| 00:27:03 | <EvanR> | infinite size what, int? xD |
| 00:27:12 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Both :P |
| 00:27:18 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> So i guess i mean integral and real |
| 00:27:27 | <EvanR> | infinite float is pretty rare compared to int |
| 00:27:33 | <monochrom> | I can agree that 32-bit int is a subtype of 64-bit double-precision float. >:) |
| 00:27:44 | <EvanR> | that checks |
| 00:28:08 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Well yes, which is why i said if you look at the math side, infinitely sized ints are subtypes of floats. But encoding that in a programming language is yikes :P |
| 00:28:37 | <EvanR> | Z "is a subset of" reals... this is also yikes xD |
| 00:28:37 | <monochrom> | If you say "float" then it is finite size. |
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| 00:29:26 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Its 2am, ill excuse my shitty terminology on account of that |
| 00:29:32 | <EvanR> | there's an order preserving or monoid preserving or ring preserving function from Z to R |
| 00:29:54 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> EvanR how so? On the also yikes part |
| 00:30:01 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> In my head it checks out |
| 00:30:07 | <EvanR> | but that's getting away with this "one universe" theory of dynamic languages |
| 00:30:13 | <EvanR> | getting away from |
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| 00:31:26 | <monochrom> | I thought the whole point of a one-universe theory is that Z can be safely a subset of R! |
| 00:31:38 | <EvanR> | yeah |
| 00:31:49 | <monochrom> | (And both being subsets of the one universe.) |
| 00:31:59 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Im lost, im gonna go sleep, im too tired for this discussion i think |
| 00:32:02 | <EvanR> | in the chaotic period of 1920s math the one universe theory didn't yet win the debate |
| 00:32:05 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Gn |
| 00:32:26 | <EvanR> | everything was separate unless you could prove an inclusion or isomorphism |
| 00:32:30 | <monochrom> | (And OK we have to s/set/something else/ lest a Russell paradox arises.) |
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| 00:37:08 | <EvanR> | additive synthesis, first you create N then using it create Z then ... eventually get R. subtractive synthesis, just say Z or R is this or that subset of surreals xD |
| 00:37:43 | <EvanR> | using schema of specification |
| 00:38:06 | <monochrom> | If you dig deeper, eventually it is just "is math invented or discovered" again. |
| 00:40:05 | <EvanR> | also is it dependent on or independent of logic |
| 00:40:25 | <EvanR> | or vice versa |
| 00:40:46 | <monochrom> | Whenever you think, you use some kind of logic. |
| 00:40:57 | <monochrom> | If you don't think, then WTF are you doing?! |
| 00:41:46 | <EvanR> | then you're an LLM |
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| 07:40:42 | <hellwolf> | is it possible to "repl" load a snippets of String/Text, and catch a compilation error in an IO? |
| 07:40:59 | <hellwolf> | a very brief thought on how to test intended type errors in a test framework. |
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| 07:41:19 | <hellwolf> | surely if GHCi can do, we could replicate that, right? |
| 07:41:22 | <dminuoso> | hellwolf: ghc is available as an API. |
| 07:41:45 | <hellwolf> | is such a test framework exist? (really dont' want to rebuild another wheel, I got my hands full) |
| 07:42:01 | <dminuoso> | hellwolf: Yes, its called ghc-lib. |
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| 07:44:15 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.12.1/docs/GHC.html#v:parseModule and followingn typecheckModule |
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| 07:44:31 | <dminuoso> | (ghc-lib has the equivalent exports, but for some reason the haddock is missing on hackage) |
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| 08:03:11 | <hellwolf> | Okay, that changes things. I will look into it some day. I would still be surprised it's not how one should generally test type errors. |
| 08:03:33 | <dminuoso> | What do you mean you would be surprised? |
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| 08:04:50 | <dminuoso> | hellwolf: Alternatively you could invoke GHC as a binary and use -fdiagnostics-as-json |
| 08:05:44 | <dminuoso> | It's a bit less tightly coupled and might be easier to use. |
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| 08:07:54 | <lortabac> | **some** tests can also be performed with the Data.Type.Equality machinery |
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| 08:09:15 | <lortabac> | there is also shelltest |
| 08:09:44 | <lortabac> | I have used it in one of my projects for this exact purpose |
| 08:10:17 | <hellwolf> | I wonder if you use Unsatisfiable, would you be able to test if instance selection falls to the unsatisiable one. |
| 08:10:56 | <lortabac> | https://github.com/lortabac/parameters/blob/master/.github/workflows/haskell.yml#L53 |
| 08:12:46 | <lortabac> | https://github.com/simonmichael/shelltestrunner |
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| 08:18:30 | <dminuoso> | hellwolf: Just to give more perspectives, GHC does these golden tests by having a python based test driver https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/tree/master/testsuite/driver and then keeping the testcases + expected stderr next to each other: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/tree/master/testsuite/tests/typecheck/should_fail |
| 08:18:39 | <dminuoso> | Loads of options |
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| 08:19:44 | <dminuoso> | One thing I would keep in mind, if you do not use ghc-lib and invoke ghc as a binary instead, you should tightly control the version as error output can change across GHC versions. |
| 08:19:58 | <dminuoso> | Or use ghc-lib with tight bounds. |
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| 08:25:39 | <Leary> | `-fdiagnostics-as-json` should be stable enough so long as you only check the fields you actually need to care about. |
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| 09:43:45 | <hellwolf> | dminuoso: thanks, I will look into it. Perhaps during zurihac's friday session. |
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| 10:02:51 | <Unhammer> | woah, clean build time went down from 2m20 to 1m30 when upgrading 9.2.8 to 9.6.7 that's Amazing |
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| 10:03:38 | <Unhammer> | (and I see from git logs that 8.8.4 took it from 3m→2m30s) |
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| 10:20:18 | <tomsmeding> | yay ghc :) |
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| 10:47:38 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Im getting evil ideas about scripting in my little game im making, and i could maybe use https://hackage.haskell.org/package/plugins-1.6.2.1 but i wonder if this produces machine code or bytecode and interprets it |
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| 10:50:54 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: seems to compile by calling ghc on the command line, and then load in the resulting .o |
| 10:51:16 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> And if using hint? That would then be interpreted i think |
| 10:51:27 | <tomsmeding> | think so, yes |
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| 10:51:46 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I wonder if i can ship ghc with my game :P |
| 10:52:23 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> (I should just use lua or make a simple lisp) |
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| 10:53:04 | <tomsmeding> | $ du -hd0 ~/.ghcup/ghc/9.8.4 |
| 10:53:06 | <tomsmeding> | 2.7G /home/tom/.ghcup/ghc/9.8.4 |
| 10:53:15 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Oof |
| 10:53:21 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Maybe not |
| 10:53:29 | <tomsmeding> | now this includes profiling libs and documentation |
| 10:53:35 | <tomsmeding> | but a pruned install is still _large_ |
| 10:53:35 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I could use a small c compiler and microhs maybe |
| 10:53:41 | <tomsmeding> | microhs, or hugs |
| 10:53:50 | <tomsmeding> | if you can get hugs to work |
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| 10:55:02 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Or just a simple lisp |
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| 10:55:22 | <tomsmeding> | build your own! it's fun |
| 10:56:10 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Possibly |
| 10:56:39 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I need like 10 data types, basic control flow and operations on those data types. Its for an ECS so not complex |
| 10:57:00 | <tomsmeding> | as long as you don't need the combination of type inference and polymorphic user functions, it's all easy enough |
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| 12:47:21 | <hellwolf> | | traceBool b msg = if b then True else trace msg False |
| 12:47:21 | <hellwolf> | is this silly, can we rely on "||" to short circuit here with Haskell's trace. |
| 12:47:45 | <hellwolf> | "b || trace msg False"? |
| 12:49:57 | <__monty__> | Don't see why not, that even works in Bash. |
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| 12:59:53 | <ski> | EvanR : "Two conceptions of natural number" (in "Truth in Mathematics", eds. H. G. Dales,G. Oliveri) by Alexander George,Daniel J. Velleman in 1998 at <https://www.amherst.edu/media/view/18770/original/Two_Conceptions_of_Natural_Number.pdf> talks about a Build Up (constructive) and a Pare Down (carving out) approach to conceptualizing how the type of natural numbers is formed, which seems to be reminiscent |
| 13:00:00 | <ski> | of what you mentioned |
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| 13:03:25 | <ski> | magic_rb : "int is a subtype of float" -- the integers can be *regarded* as being embedded in the reals (which is what EvanR indicated by "there's an order preserving or monoid preserving or ring preserving function from Z to R"). but even in a ZF set theoretic setting, when you construct the reals, out of (the rationals, out of) the integers, the set of integers does *not* become a subset of the reals. |
| 13:03:32 | <ski> | unless you manually filter out all "integral reals" from the set of reals, replacing them with the original integers (assuming there's no overlap of representation as hereditary ZF sets in the particular construction/implementation you've chosen ..) |
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| 13:06:54 | <ski> | hellwolf : yes, `if b then True else c' is `b || c', `if b then c else False' is `b && c', `if b then False else True' is `not b', `if b then True else False' is `b' |
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| 13:10:50 | <ski> | (and `if b then c else True' is (the unfortunately named) `b <= c', which is implication from `b' to `c') |
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| 13:26:09 | <ski> | > let divides :: Integral i => i -> i -> Bool; d `divides` n = (n /= 0) <= (d /= 0 && n `rem` d == 0); gregorialLeapYear :: Integral i => i -> Bool; gregorialLeapYear n = 4 `divides` n && (100 `divides` n) <= (400 `divides` n) in map gregorialLeapYear [1941,1980,1900,2000] |
| 13:26:11 | <lambdabot> | [False,True,False,True] |
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| 13:29:48 | ski | idly ponders "but not" connective (coexponential, "subtraction", "except", `A && not B' (`A >- B') .. `(4 | n) >- ((100 | n) >- (400 | n))') |
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| 13:36:36 | <ski> | d `divides` n = not (n /= 0 >- (d /= 0 >- (n `rem` d /= 0))) -- hmm, doesn't really seem to help here |
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| 14:34:59 | <hellwolf> | huh, so with rebindable syntax "-128 :: I8" is - (fromInteger 128) |
| 14:35:01 | <hellwolf> | which blows up |
| 14:35:03 | <hellwolf> | whaaa |
| 14:35:20 | <hellwolf> | it's not on the label: https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/rebindable_syntax.html |
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| 14:45:18 | <geekosaur> | it doesn't need to be, it's using Report translation unless you use LexicalNegation (although I'm not sure if the numeric extensions are active in RebindableSyntax) |
| 14:45:42 | <geekosaur> | more specifically it's `negate (fromInteger 128)` |
| 14:47:14 | <geekosaur> | the users guide doesn't, in general, repeat anything specified by the Report; only where it differs |
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| 14:53:29 | <hellwolf> | a glaring issue of using rebindable syntax for negative numbers then. |
| 14:54:00 | <geekosaur> | actually you'll find it does the same thing without RebindableSyntax |
| 14:55:08 | <hellwolf> | for which data type? |
| 14:55:26 | <geekosaur> | it's a glaring issue with the Report's specification of how negated literals work, combined with ghc reporting bounds overflow/underflow for numeric literals (I think even worse things go wrong if it didn't warn). LexicalNegation exists because of this. |
| 14:55:50 | <geekosaur> | any bounded numeric type |
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| 14:57:04 | <geekosaur> | basically the Report version of negative numeric literals is a trainwreck and LexicalNegation should be used |
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| 14:59:11 | <EvanR> | > negate (fromInteger 128) :: Int8 |
| 14:59:13 | <lambdabot> | -128 |
| 14:59:20 | <geekosaur> | it's one of the few extensions that I would say "always turn on if you value your sanity" |
| 14:59:55 | <geekosaur> | hm, that actually surprises me |
| 15:00:28 | <EvanR> | ok that's what I should have expected |
| 15:00:39 | <EvanR> | not "blow up" |
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| 15:00:59 | <hellwolf> | > negate (fromInteger 128 :: Int8) :: Int8 |
| 15:01:00 | <lambdabot> | -128 |
| 15:01:09 | <hellwolf> | > fromInteger 128 :: Int8 |
| 15:01:10 | <lambdabot> | -128 |
| 15:01:14 | <hellwolf> | fml |
| 15:01:24 | <geekosaur> | oh, hm, if it's actually using that translation then it's Integer at the point over/underflow is checked. hellmonk, are you sure it translated that way? the "128" would always be an `Integer` with yours |
| 15:01:37 | <geekosaur> | er, hellwolf, sorry |
| 15:01:48 | <geekosaur> | (there's a hellmonk in another channel I frequent 🙂 ) |
| 15:01:55 | <hellwolf> | haha |
| 15:02:04 | <hellwolf> | I was wondering if that's a expression from some state. |
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| 15:03:08 | <EvanR> | -128 is a fixed point |
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| 15:04:06 | <hellwolf> | PendingBlowup |
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| 15:04:19 | <hellwolf> | CancellableBlowUp |
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| 15:08:40 | <EvanR> | smh shoulda used ones complement |
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| 15:19:27 | <hellwolf> | rust people is gonna laugh at my handling of Integer -> [Word8] |
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| 15:19:35 | <hellwolf> | and vice versa |
| 15:19:42 | hellwolf | feeling embarrased |
| 15:19:51 | <EvanR> | unfoldr? |
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| 15:20:35 | <hellwolf> | oh, I should indeed. But I think the performance will be uncharitable, thought it is not what I am after here. |
| 15:20:56 | <hellwolf> | *laughable |
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| 15:21:03 | <hellwolf> | not sure why emacs auto corrected the word. |
| 15:21:10 | <EvanR> | I don't bet against GHC xD |
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| 15:21:23 | <hellwolf> | it's all boxed, so all bets are off. |
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| 15:21:33 | <EvanR> | compiling of known types with known functions |
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| 15:21:37 | <hellwolf> | if I really needed performance, I need a different set of data types. |
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| 15:23:26 | <EvanR> | a function which may or may not need to access GMP representation which divMods by 256 and gets an unboxed Word8 might help |
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| 15:24:32 | <EvanR> | also, how would rust do it |
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| 15:25:07 | <hellwolf> | libgmp, unsafe, ba bing, ba bang |
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| 15:25:29 | <EvanR> | assuming you're using the GMP version of Integer |
| 15:25:36 | <hellwolf> | how can I know? |
| 15:25:40 | <hellwolf> | how can I find out? |
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| 15:28:08 | <EvanR> | :i Integer |
| 15:28:15 | <EvanR> | % :i Integer |
| 15:28:15 | <yahb2> | type Integer :: * ; data Integer ; = GHC.Num.Integer.IS GHC.Prim.Int# ; | GHC.Num.Integer.IP GHC.Prim.ByteArray# ; | GHC.Num.Integer.IN GHC.Prim.ByteArray# ; -- Defined in ‘GHC.Num.Integer... |
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| 15:30:38 | <hellwolf> | alright, my embarrassing un-optimized code: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/f8CgpLh2 |
| 15:30:55 | <hellwolf> | would love to learn how to handle numbers better in Haskell |
| 15:31:03 | <EvanR> | I did ghc-pkg list | grep integer |
| 15:31:48 | <hellwolf> | integer-gmp-1.1 |
| 15:31:50 | <hellwolf> | for me |
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| 15:32:01 | <Leary> | If it's embarrassing, just use `integerToMutableByteArray#`. |
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| 15:33:58 | <EvanR> | alternatively since there's no behavioral spec, f _ = [] |
| 15:34:12 | <EvanR> | blazing fast |
| 15:35:55 | <hellwolf> | :) that'd make all "IO ()" function impelementation easy |
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| 15:37:22 | <dolio> | Does anyone have a cabal workflow for toggling -Werror that's more convenient than editing a cabal.project? |
| 15:37:23 | <EvanR> | that's a good monoid |
| 15:38:04 | <dolio> | I need to build with -Werror to satisfy some CI, but it constantly bites me when I'm experimenting with stuff trying to fix things. |
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| 15:46:28 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> > rust people is gonna laugh at my handling of Integer -> [Word8] |
| 15:46:28 | <haskellbridge> | As a rust people I cry at non-lgpl versions being at least 3 times slower TT |
| 15:46:28 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> what's that? |
| 15:47:58 | <geekosaur> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/GdKV0cev |
| 15:48:11 | <geekosaur> | (re -Werror) |
| 15:49:27 | <geekosaur> | alternately reverse the default so CI runs with -fwerror |
| 15:50:02 | <dolio> | You put that in your cabal.project? |
| 15:51:17 | <geekosaur> | no, that's what hellwolf wants to avoid. you put that in cabal files, or if you can't modify those directlyu then package stanzas in cabal.project |
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| 15:51:44 | <geekosaur> | hm, except I don't know if the flag() condition works in the latter |
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| 15:52:47 | <dolio> | Yeah, I wasn't sure if you could put flags in a cabal.project. And I the -Werror isn't in the .cabal files. I add it in my cabal.project to match whatever the CI is doing. |
| 15:53:20 | <dolio> | Which isn't cabal based. |
| 15:55:15 | <EvanR> | % import GHC.Num.Backend (backendName) |
| 15:55:16 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 15:55:22 | <EvanR> | % backendName |
| 15:55:22 | <yahb2> | "gmp" |
| 15:56:04 | <dolio> | No, doesn't seem like you can put flags in a cabal.project. |
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| 16:04:04 | <dminuoso> | You can definitely put flags in a cabal project |
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| 16:05:07 | <dminuoso> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html#cfg-field-flags |
| 16:05:25 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> The more I live the more I believe that inductive tuples are a better solution, especially for C-inspired languages |
| 16:05:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> You would then represent functions as accepting a tuple, and have variadics for free |
| 16:05:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Ironically I don't really feel this problem in haskell, because I rarely need to be generic over tuple size, except with Generics |
| 16:05:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Rust and C++ on the other hand |
| 16:05:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Why not omit Nil? And for some swag #define , :* |
| 16:05:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Yeah, and I'm not sure if turing incompleteness is what I want |
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| 16:15:34 | <EvanR> | all you need is pair, it could even be a primitive |
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| 16:15:59 | <EvanR> | and returning two values would solve the lack of pattern matching or deconstructive assignment |
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| 16:16:15 | <EvanR> | but noooooo we can't return two values |
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| 16:45:37 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: that's setting flags, not reading flags, which I believe is what the discussion was about |
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| 17:26:08 | <monochrom> | C and C++ are happy to return a struct, and have been like that for a while. Is that good enough? |
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| 17:27:50 | <monochrom> | (It actually reflects my age and conservativism when I design an API in C to be like "void multipy(const complex *a, const complex *b, complex *dst)", while my students would freely go "complex multiply(complex a, complex b)". |
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| 17:38:38 | tomsmeding | . o O ( multi-python: like monty python, but for multiplication ) |
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| 18:35:51 | <EvanR> | monochrom, no, it's not |
| 18:36:38 | <EvanR> | the code for mario's physics is already complex enough without also having to manually unpack the two components of addition-that-might-overflow |
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| 18:37:11 | <EvanR> | the operation naturally has two results |
| 18:38:19 | <EvanR> | the formula or algorithm is nicest when just getting two results back |
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| 18:39:50 | <EvanR> | (mario bizarrely feeds the low precision half of the position physics into the velocity physics) |
| 18:40:51 | <EvanR> | s/low precision/least significant/ |
| 18:40:58 | <monochrom> | OK, does "two results" mean the "a quadratic equation has up to 2 roots" kind? Does it mean the "2D vector" kind? |
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| 18:41:43 | <EvanR> | q, r = division of x by y |
| 18:41:47 | <EvanR> | kind |
| 18:42:04 | <monochrom> | That's just a struct in C. |
| 18:42:11 | <EvanR> | quadratic formula might benefit from that or not |
| 18:42:35 | <EvanR> | packing that into a struct and then unpacking it is syntactically noisy and you'd reject that if it were require in haskell |
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| 18:43:31 | <monochrom> | But I don't reject it. I fully accept "... where (q, r) = divMod x y". I even put that in an exercise for my class. |
| 18:43:46 | <EvanR> | let p = f x y z in let r1 = fst p; r2 = snd p in ... |
| 18:44:08 | <EvanR> | instead of let (r1,r2) = f x y z in ... |
| 18:46:34 | <monochrom> | I see what you mean now. |
| 18:46:40 | <EvanR> | pattern matching makes up for the lack of multireturn, that would also be cool |
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| 18:49:40 | <monochrom> | I forgot how to use multireturn, even in Lisp. How is it less noisy? |
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| 18:52:52 | <monochrom> | Apart from scenerios like (* 2 (+ 1 (I-am-multivalued))) meaning the Haskell equivalent of fmap (* 2) (fmap (+ 1) i_am_multivalued), which doesn't need you to manually unpack-repack in intermediate steps. |
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| 18:55:08 | <EvanR> | you get named variables for each of the two results |
| 18:55:20 | <EvanR> | and don't have to make up an intermediate name for the packing of them |
| 18:55:53 | <EvanR> | if it's all point free then that's another style and not applicable to mario psuedocode running in 8bit asm |
| 18:57:16 | <EvanR> | also the use cases I'm thinking about, you wouldn't pack them at all like in C, since the primitive ops yields 2 separate results |
| 18:57:49 | <EvanR> | addition, multiply with carry, division, |
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| 18:58:46 | <EvanR> | if you only wanted 1 result you ignore the other |
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| 19:02:29 | <monochrom> | Can I understand "get named variables for each of the two results" as Lisp having pattern matching but only for multireturn? :) |
| 19:03:41 | <EvanR> | looks like it |
| 19:04:01 | <monochrom> | Yeah, that helps. |
| 19:04:48 | <EvanR> | in lisp it seems they're talking about the implementation |
| 19:05:03 | <EvanR> | do you construct a real list and return it or do something more clever, programmer decides |
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| 19:05:58 | <EvanR> | even though it gets the same results |
| 19:06:13 | <EvanR> | so dangerously close to bikeshedding |
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| 19:08:36 | <EvanR> | old lisp doesn't have pattern matching? dang |
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| 19:15:05 | <monochrom> | Yeah, Haskell unifies real list and multireturn by saying you just need the list type, pattern matching, and monad; and it also covers all kinds of user-defined algebraic types, so it is very unifying. |
| 19:15:44 | <mauke> | multivalues don't automap |
| 19:16:04 | <monochrom> | To be fair, in 1970s one didn't have the benefit of hindsight. |
| 19:16:07 | <mauke> | they just pick the first value if fed to non-multi-value-aware operations |
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| 19:19:52 | <EvanR> | looks like clojure lost the multireturn ability |
| 19:19:58 | <EvanR> | but gained pattern matching |
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| 20:18:23 | <dolio> | I'm sure it's possible to make inductive tuples just work well, and I expect ML derivatives do that. I think the problem is a lot of more 'mainstream' languages are allergic to putting in the work to make them work well. |
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| 20:25:34 | <potatoespotatoes> | hi all! do folks have a go-to recommendation for speeding up haskell (for numerical compute in a discrete domain)? |
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| 20:33:29 | <monochrom> | Everyone is allergic to putting in more work. >:) |
| 20:34:01 | <monochrom> | Programming languages are a dialectic class struggle between compiler writers and language users. >:) |
| 20:35:24 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://github.com/haskell-perf/checklist , https://haskell.foundation/hs-opt-handbook.github.io/ are two |
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| 20:57:16 | <r-sta> | hows it going #haskell? |
| 20:57:25 | <r-sta> | been offline a while |
| 20:57:32 | <r-sta> | afk so to speak |
| 20:57:41 | <r-sta> | any new developments? |
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| 21:10:49 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> welcome back. What's a while ? |
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| 21:12:54 | <r-sta> | errrm, last time i checked there were some developments in the compiler including a language extension with record dots and modifiers, and an extension for pattern matching with or cases |
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| 21:14:55 | <r-sta> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/9.12.1-notes.html#language |
| 21:15:05 | <r-sta> | so sometime in may |
| 21:15:25 | <r-sta> | but really that was just to check in |
| 21:15:36 | <r-sta> | probably about a year since i have been active |
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| 21:16:03 | <r-sta> | anyone been up to much? |
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| 21:59:06 | <r-sta> | https://voca.ro/1hLDWrHWhuMf |
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| 23:21:45 | <EvanR> | so in ghci if you try to unwrap an "existential" and print out the type of the contents, you used to get "my brain exploded", now it's a more helpful message but still doesn't work. Is this because the type information is just gone? |
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| 23:27:40 | <dolio> | Yes. The thing you get out of an existential has an arbitrary type that is distinct from every other type. |
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| 23:29:12 | <dolio> | Unless you put a constraint on it in the existential type (or similar), it has no known instances, so in particular can't be printed. |
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