Logs on 2025-06-05 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:42:34 | <Tikosh> | I am confusion. im attempting to build a function that takes a String -> Bool and outputs a String. |
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| 02:43:22 | <Tikosh> | https://bpa.st/VTEA here is what i got so far |
| 02:43:50 | <Tikosh> | the endGameQuestion function is hurting my brain |
| 02:44:02 | <Tikosh> | all i get are parse errors and i don't know what to do |
| 02:44:20 | <EvanR> | this kind of program would benefit from an interact higher order function like |
| 02:44:22 | <EvanR> | :t interact |
| 02:44:23 | <lambdabot> | (String -> String) -> IO () |
| 02:44:45 | <EvanR> | or a variant that takes the game state |
| 02:45:31 | <EvanR> | the type of endGameQuestion you have is problematic because it supposedly says it works for pair of any two types whatsoever |
| 02:45:51 | <EvanR> | but it seems to expect specifically (String,Bool) only |
| 02:46:25 | <monochrom> | Yeah (a,b) is wrong, (String,Bool) is much better. |
| 02:47:21 | <monochrom> | But I wonder why it is so redundant. Why do I need to be told both "yes" and True? |
| 02:47:41 | <Tikosh> | sorry. im learning haskell |
| 02:47:49 | <Tikosh> | that is why its redundant. |
| 02:47:57 | <Tikosh> | beginner programmer here |
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| 02:48:18 | <Tikosh> | like, noob programmer |
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| 02:48:52 | <EvanR> | so maybe the original question should have been "build a function that takes a (String, Bool) and outputs a String" |
| 02:49:18 | <Tikosh> | yea! |
| 02:49:38 | <Tikosh> | im attempting to build like a 20 questions game |
| 02:50:12 | <monochrom> | OK I see the syntax error now. Write like this: endGameQuestion ("yes", True) = "Alright. Let's play!" |
| 02:50:19 | <EvanR> | if there's a set of 20 questions then, maybe you do need to pass the list of remaining questions to the next iteration of the game loop |
| 02:50:58 | <monochrom> | I am too lazy to write the 2nd line for the 2nd case, but you should be able to extrapolate. |
| 02:51:21 | <EvanR> | and the third line |
| 02:52:12 | <EvanR> | to cover all the possibilities |
| 02:52:17 | <monochrom> | Actually you wrote gameOne correctly, so just follow that template. |
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| 02:55:36 | <potatoespotatoes> | are there examples of an effect library with a multi-shot handler? I came across a note about resumable exceptions in effectful, and the fused-effects-resumable library depends on the older, pre-Algebra-typeclass design |
| 02:56:19 | <potatoespotatoes> | "note about resumable exceptions in effectful" -> /not/ supported in effectul |
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| 02:57:25 | <potatoespotatoes> | (although I don't know if resumable exceptions are what I am looking for -- I just want to be able to call a handler twice with two different values and aggregate the result) |
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| 03:06:39 | <EvanR> | like liftA2 ? |
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| 03:16:44 | <monochrom> | If I understand correctly, that's just the non-determinism effect in algebraic effects. |
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| 03:54:29 | <Tikosh> | is it not recommended for a noob like I to learn haskell |
| 03:54:30 | <Tikosh> | ? |
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| 03:55:29 | <Tikosh> | i don't even konw how to end the game properly |
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| 03:59:08 | <monochrom> | With recursion, you do not look for a way to code up "leave this function". Instead: |
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| 04:00:05 | <monochrom> | It is when you want to repeat the function that you have to code up something, namely, a recursive call. |
| 04:00:19 | <monochrom> | If you don't code up a recursive code, then you are already leaving the function. |
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| 04:19:11 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Tikosh it's recommended, but having the right learning resources and/or support will be important |
| 04:19:51 | <Tikosh> | alright |
| 04:19:57 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> also, if you struggle with it at first, it's not unusual; don't worry |
| 04:21:40 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I made a similar guess the number game |
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| 04:22:39 | <Tikosh> | others say to learn python but for some reason i gravitate towards haskell. |
| 04:22:47 | <Tikosh> | its because of xmonad |
| 04:22:50 | <Tikosh> | i love xmonad |
| 04:23:21 | <EvanR> | learn both |
| 04:23:32 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> if it can be useful to your daily work, that's good for motivation |
| 04:23:36 | <EvanR> | just know python and haskell are very different |
| 04:23:52 | <EvanR> | it won't be as simple as learning different syntax |
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| 04:24:19 | <Tikosh> | yea. im a noob at programming in general. all i did to configure xmonad was follow a tutorial |
| 04:24:26 | <Tikosh> | on the xmonad website |
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| 04:24:36 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> excellent! |
| 04:25:02 | <Tikosh> | this learning haskell thing so far took me 10 years of my life |
| 04:25:18 | <Tikosh> | i don't know if its pride or something |
| 04:25:50 | <Tikosh> | immutability just sounds attractive for some reason |
| 04:25:51 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> 10 years since you started ? or 10 years to get started ? |
| 04:26:01 | <Tikosh> | 10 years since i started |
| 04:26:31 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> nice. What happened in the first 10 years ? |
| 04:27:00 | <Tikosh> | I attempted to put an original xmonad config without copying other configs |
| 04:27:09 | <Tikosh> | with no copy, pasting. |
| 04:27:16 | <Tikosh> | i wanted to understand what goes on in it |
| 04:28:03 | <EvanR> | immutability is great, is means you're off the hook for all those programming tasks to carefully rewrite fields |
| 04:28:27 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> what learning resources have you liked ? |
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| 04:30:02 | <Tikosh> | so far. I liked the one book called the craft of functional programming. its yellow and teaches haskell |
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| 04:30:30 | <Tikosh> | i bought that book for fun. not because i go to university |
| 04:31:07 | <Tikosh> | here is an example of my xmonad config https://bpa.st/BKPQ |
| 04:31:38 | <Tikosh> | some of the code was inspired from the xmonad website, derek taylor, and other sources |
| 04:31:51 | <Tikosh> | i guess the majority of code |
| 04:31:56 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I really like https://exercism.org/tracks/haskell . If you get stuck on one exercise for a while, you can just work on some others. And there's a lot of help. |
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| 04:34:06 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> the config looks great! But probably now you are stretching into writing a different kinds of program. This game looks much smaller but it has more complex logic, and input/output issues |
| 04:35:11 | <Tikosh> | yea. Im gonna try exercism, again. |
| 04:35:44 | <Tikosh> | last time i did it, i couldn't get passed the Lucian's lasagna |
| 04:35:56 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I learned the basics with project euler, another exercise site. |
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| 04:38:19 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> but y'all were discussing the guessing game. Games are fun. |
| 04:39:22 | <Tikosh> | yea. i was attempting to make was a bit too complex for me to understand, yet. |
| 04:39:53 | <Tikosh> | haskell broke my english. lol |
| 04:40:35 | <Tikosh> | what i was attempting to make was too complex |
| 04:40:58 | <Tikosh> | its like, idk. like... |
| 04:41:11 | <Tikosh> | learning to walk when one never walked |
| 04:41:44 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> that happens all of us. Look for ways to simplify it, or just take a break, to make progress |
| 04:42:13 | <Tikosh> | alright. i start with something basic |
| 04:42:14 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> you can also read more examples like what you're making, but some people prefer to figure it out |
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| 04:45:48 | Axma84968 | is now known as Axman6 |
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| 04:48:55 | <Tikosh> | this is my latest game that works https://bpa.st/ADKA |
| 04:49:20 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> 🚀 |
| 04:49:30 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> working code is good code! |
| 04:50:13 | <Tikosh> | absolutely! |
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| 04:52:09 | <Tikosh> | should I learn c and haskell? my goal is to learn some low-level stuff, too. |
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| 04:52:43 | <Tikosh> | what you guys thing of the game i made? the new one that works |
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| 04:53:21 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> it's a lot to learn multiple languages at the same time. But switching back and forth is refreshing sometimes |
| 04:53:41 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> the game is great, but short :) |
| 04:53:53 | <Tikosh> | yea. lol |
| 04:54:09 | <Tikosh> | thats how far i can go, for now |
| 04:54:17 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://hub.darcs.net/simon/guess-the-number/browse/guess-the-number.hs is similar, but adds a simple loop (and a few more tricks) |
| 04:56:23 | <Tikosh> | haskell left me like allen iverson. left me with more questions than answers hahahahahhaah |
| 04:56:40 | <Tikosh> | allen iverson is a basketball player |
| 04:56:48 | <Tikosh> | who had shoes called questions and answers |
| 04:56:56 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> ha! |
| 04:57:47 | <Tikosh> | welp. i gotta head out. thank you for the help! |
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| 04:58:16 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> see you |
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| 14:33:45 | <jteppinette> | Does anyone have recommendations on getting proper indenting in [neo/]vim? |
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| 15:18:00 | <yin> | jteppinette: /join #[neo/]vim |
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| 16:31:26 | <__monty__> | I have a project that is just a single Shakefile.hs, how does that fit best in a Cabal file? It's closest to an executable component but I'm not actually interested in building it, I just want to be able to run it with Shake. |
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| 16:34:52 | <m_a_r_k> | jteppinette are you using treesitter? |
| 16:36:13 | <m_a_r_k> | I just use the default hls LSP with neovim's built in treesitter |
| 16:36:23 | <m_a_r_k> | :q |
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| 17:02:31 | <EvanR_> | __monty__, there are a few ways to "just run a haskell file" |
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| 17:03:00 | <EvanR> | if you don't need any external packages you can use runghc |
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| 17:06:18 | <EvanR> | if you do, e.g. vector, then you might get away with putting a cabal script at the beginning of the file and then cabal run the file |
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| 17:15:14 | <__monty__> | I do want a cabal file for integration with things. |
| 17:15:43 | <EvanR> | a separate file would violate the "single file" premise |
| 17:16:21 | <EvanR> | but yeah a whole project would also work |
| 17:17:10 | <__monty__> | I'm not looking to have a single file. It's just that the code is currently only in a single Shakefile.hs, the operative part there being that it's executed by Shake, so no need to compile it. |
| 17:17:31 | <__monty__> | But dependencies do need to be available. |
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| 17:18:03 | <EvanR> | oh looks like runhaskell was the program I was thinking of |
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| 17:19:00 | <EvanR> | you probably want to compile it somehow so that subsequent executions don't have a noticable spin up delay |
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| 17:21:43 | <EvanR> | in the faq it says >Most users will write their own Haskell file and compile it to produce an executable that is their build tool. |
| 17:22:15 | <__monty__> | Yeah but I have a pretty simple Shakefile. |
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| 17:49:59 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> make it a cabal script or stack script, those will handle dependencies |
| 17:50:17 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> like https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/blob/master/Shake.hs |
| 17:52:03 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> this auto-compiles when needed |
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| 18:03:00 | <__monty__> | But that doesn't integrate with my tooling (Nix). |
| 18:03:30 | <__monty__> | I want a Cabal file. I just don't really want `cabal build` to build an executable. |
| 18:04:09 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> are you sure ? stack --nix-help shows some stuff |
| 18:05:06 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> this stuff: https://termbin.com/jv27 |
| 18:06:10 | <__monty__> | Yes, I'm sure. |
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| 18:08:49 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Ok, so you want to run a shake file as a script, without compiling it, ensuring that any required haskell packages are present, and integrating with your nix setup, in some way that stack --nix* doesn't do. |
| 18:09:08 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Isn't there some kind of native nix script, that you could do runghc in ? |
| 18:09:44 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> using nix to ensure the haskell packages are there ? |
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| 18:15:24 | <__monty__> | Nix needn't really figure into this. It's just what happens to set up my package database. I want a Cabal file that allows installing all the dependencies for my Shakefile to be then run using Shake, ideally also installed by the Cabal file. |
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| 19:07:48 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> you brought it up :) |
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| 19:08:22 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I think we covered it, one way or another ? or is there still something missing ? |
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| 20:20:01 | <__monty__> | Well, neither a stack script nor a cabal script works for me. Those were the only suggestions I picked up on. |
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| 20:26:36 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I'm not sure why not exactly |
| 20:27:02 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> the other option was a nix script that runs runghc |
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| 20:38:13 | <__monty__> | But that's another option that doesn't achieve what I want. I don't want a single-file project. The code for the project happens to be in a single file but it needn't be. It's just that "non-compiled script with dependencies" doesn't seem to fit my understanding of the Cabal model. |
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| 20:39:04 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I guess I'm unclear what you want |
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| 20:39:57 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> your original question _seemed_ clear... :) |
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| 20:40:30 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> anyway I don't want to annoy you. I think Shake scripts are awesome |
| 20:41:00 | <__monty__> | I'm not annoyed. I suspect there's no better fit than an executable component. |
| 20:41:55 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> you currently have a single Shakefile.hs. But you want to make it a cabal project ? |
| 20:42:05 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> why ? |
| 20:42:11 | <EvanR> | what's the problem with an executable |
| 20:42:22 | <__monty__> | I think "Make Shake available" isn't a great fit for a Cabal file either. There's build-tool depends or something but it's not really a build tool. |
| 20:42:30 | <geekosaur> | no, I think they want an interpreted cabal script, which currently doesn't exist |
| 20:43:00 | <__monty__> | I'm really quite certain I don't want a shebang at all in my Shakefile. |
| 20:43:13 | <__monty__> | Not Cabal nor Stack nor Nix. |
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| 20:43:46 | <sclv> | why |
| 20:43:46 | <geekosaur> | then you want a kernel module to recognize Shakefiles??? how exactly do you think this is supposed to work? |
| 20:43:49 | <__monty__> | The problem with an executable component is just that `cabal build` does too much. I don't need the Shakefile to be compiled. |
| 20:44:17 | <sclv> | the hard part isn’t compiling its making deps available. after that compiling is just an efficiency optimization |
| 20:44:27 | <sclv> | there’s no downside to how cabal does scripts |
| 20:44:35 | <__monty__> | I don't know why everyone's assuming I want to execute the Shakefile as if it's an executable? I just want to invoke `shake myShakefile.hs`. |
| 20:44:37 | <EvanR> | compiling vs interpreting is subjective |
| 20:44:41 | <sclv> | it used to interpret then people fixed it |
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| 20:46:01 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> sclv, geekosaur: do cabal scripts _always_ compile now ? |
| 20:46:10 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 20:46:16 | <EvanR> | it gets the same results in the end which is why I was curious what difference it makes |
| 20:46:25 | <geekosaur> | well, no, if they don't need to be rebuilt they don't |
| 20:46:51 | <sclv> | a shakefile is literally an executable script. thats how it works. compiling vs interpreting is simply a matter of efficiency and optimization. |
| 20:46:54 | <geekosaur> | so what you really want is for shake tpo understand build dependencies? |
| 20:47:20 | <geekosaur> | or are you asking shake to do what it doesn't? |
| 20:47:34 | <__monty__> | No, my tooling sets up the dependencies but that tooling does so by interpreting a Cabal file. |
| 20:47:35 | <sclv> | this is what a shakefile looks like. it has a main function and everything: https://shakebuild.com/manual#running |
| 20:47:35 | <sclv> | its a haskell program. |
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| 20:48:51 | <geekosaur> | okay, that's more or less what I expected, so where does this "shake" executable come in? |
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| 20:51:19 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> good question, it seems underdocumented |
| 20:53:20 | <__monty__> | It's required to run the Shakefile, that's all. I'm just hoping there's a nice way to specify it in a Cabal file to be made available. Is a hypothetical script component with "run-depends: base, aeson, shake" really so outrageous? |
| 20:53:55 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> "shake" certainly isn't required to run a shakefile. Here's the main, it seems to try to run ninja: https://github.com/ndmitchell/shake/blob/master/src/Run.hs |
| 20:54:19 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> or it runs the shakefile with runhaskell |
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| 20:54:44 | <sclv> | if you do want an executable in place during some other portion of a cabal build, adding that executable in build-tool-depends _should_ work. however as sm says, i don't believe the shake executable is necessary to run a shakefile. |
| 20:54:59 | <__monty__> | I know it's not. It's just how I like to run it, parallels the make + Makefile workflow nicely. |
| 20:55:15 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> fair enough |
| 20:55:34 | <sclv> | then to have it in place, using nix, just add it to your nix environment. that's what nix is for |
| 20:56:00 | <EvanR> | I'm confused about how shake + cabal can exist in the same project, they're both build tools |
| 20:56:11 | <EvanR> | who is in charge of building |
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| 20:56:15 | <__monty__> | I'd prefer the specification to be complete regardless of whether someone else wants to use Nix. |
| 20:56:57 | <sclv> | i'm so confused. |
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| 20:57:31 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> welcome to the thread sclv :) |
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| 20:59:18 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> __monty__ if you are attached to running the shakefile via "shake", that can't ensure dependencies, you'll have to do that yourself as a separate step. That's the reason people make it a cabal/stack script. |
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| 21:00:19 | <sclv> | ah -- i see. its "we want to build with shake instead of cabal, but we want a package environment that has all the packages we need to build." you totally _can_ do that with cabal, by installing the packages into a package environment. |
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| 21:02:49 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> that comment raises interesting new ambiguities |
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| 21:04:47 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I think (?) the packages needed are for the shakefile itself, not for a haskell app being built |
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| 21:07:23 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> and I assumed shake is being used as a "make" replacement, not a "cabal build" replacement here |
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| 22:23:04 | <__monty__> | Yep, the dependencies are of the Shakefile. |
| 22:23:52 | <__monty__> | I'm using Shake as a build tool but not to build a Haskell project. |
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| 22:26:47 | <EvanR> | need a build tool for the build tool |
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| 22:30:49 | <__monty__> | Yeah, that's kind of the fundamental problem with Shake. |
| 22:31:45 | <__monty__> | Maybe sleeping on it will make things clear up in my mind. |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-06-05.