Logs on 2025-06-08 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:29:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> sclv: DeepSeek is currently explaining Haskell via dialectical materialism. |
| 01:30:24 | <sclv> | no its not |
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| 01:31:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> At least on my account on the main site, it's still hallucinating but it's funny. |
| 01:31:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the thesis and antithesis is IO vs pure, mind you |
| 01:34:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I baited it into discussing dialectical materialism, thinking that I liked it, then mentioned a contradiction in Haskell and it tried to suggest a dialectical synthesis of the contradiction. |
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| 02:13:41 | <EvanR> | trolling the LLM into trolling you? |
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| 04:13:44 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
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| 06:51:54 | <yabobay> | i'm reading 'learn you a haskell', and it demonstrates foldr by showing you this map implementation: `map' f xs = foldr (\x acc -> f x : acc) [] xs`. doesn't this fail at being lazy? if you wanna `take 3` off of a list like this for example |
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| 06:54:02 | <yabobay> | hold on, nevermind. i thought foldr started at the end. oops. |
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| 07:03:46 | <ski> | if Haskell would be a strict language, it would (operationally) start from the end. it still "conceptually" starts from the end (just like `foldl' conceptually (and operationally) starts at the beginning). but because of non-strictness (typically implemented by laziness, call-by-need), it *operationally* will start "outermost" in `f x (foldr f z xs)' (from `foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs)'), so that |
| 07:03:52 | <ski> | `f' is given control first, not the recursive call (giving the "previous result", for the tail, conceptually having processed from the end) |
| 07:04:19 | <ski> | and only if `f' forces its second argument, will the recursive call actually happen |
| 07:07:04 | <yabobay> | so it creates f x : acc, and if i just wanted to take the first 3 elements it would just do those and acc would be left unsolved? |
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| 07:12:18 | <mauke> | yes |
| 07:13:14 | <mauke> | > let map' f xs = foldr (\x acc -> f x : acc) [] xs in map' (*2) [1 .. 5] |
| 07:13:15 | <lambdabot> | [2,4,6,8,10] |
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| 07:13:28 | <mauke> | > let map' f xs = foldr (\x acc -> f x : acc) [] xs in take 5 (map' (*2) [1 ..]) |
| 07:13:29 | <lambdabot> | [2,4,6,8,10] |
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| 07:14:46 | <yabobay> | that's cool |
| 07:16:21 | <mauke> | > let map' f xs = foldr (\x acc -> f x : acc) [] xs in map' (*2) [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, error "not even a real list element"] |
| 07:16:22 | <lambdabot> | [2,4,6,8,10,*Exception: not even a real list element |
| 07:16:39 | <mauke> | (but it still processed the first elements just fine) |
| 07:17:08 | <mauke> | > let map' f xs = foldr (\x acc -> f x : acc) [] xs in take 5 (map' (*2) [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, error "not even a real list element"]) |
| 07:17:10 | <lambdabot> | [2,4,6,8,10] |
| 07:17:25 | <yabobay> | oh yeah, something else i noticed is when i was in ghci doing some stuff with a list that was kinda slow it printed each element as it found it |
| 07:17:35 | <yabobay> | which was cool |
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| 07:21:35 | <yabobay> | > let map' f xs = foldr (\x acc -> f x : acc) [] xs in tail (map' (*2) [error "nope", 3, 4]) |
| 07:21:36 | <lambdabot> | [6,8] |
| 07:21:51 | <yabobay> | it even works both ways |
| 07:22:54 | <mauke> | yes, because lists are both element-wise lazy and structurally lazy |
| 07:23:32 | <ski> | > foldr (\n prod -> if n == 0 then 0 else n * prod) 1 [1 .. 5] |
| 07:23:33 | <lambdabot> | 120 |
| 07:23:56 | <ski> | > foldr (\n prod -> if n == 0 then 0 else n * prod) 1 ([1 .. 5] : 0 ++ [6 ..]) |
| 07:23:57 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 07:23:57 | <lambdabot> | • No instance for (Num [[Integer]]) |
| 07:23:57 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘e_10011506’ |
| 07:24:06 | <ski> | > foldr (\n prod -> if n == 0 then 0 else n * prod) 1 ([1 .. 5] ++ 0 : [6 ..]) |
| 07:24:07 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
| 07:24:19 | <ski> | > foldr (\n prod -> if n == 0 then 0 else n * prod) 1 [1 .. 5] :: Expr |
| 07:24:20 | <lambdabot> | 1 * (2 * (3 * (4 * (5 * 1)))) |
| 07:24:26 | <ski> | > foldr (\n prod -> if n == 0 then 0 else n * prod) 1 ([1 .. 5] ++ 0 : [6 ..]) :: Expr |
| 07:24:27 | <lambdabot> | 1 * (2 * (3 * (4 * (5 * 0)))) |
| 07:24:41 | <yabobay> | isn't 0 * prod = 0 anyway |
| 07:25:10 | <mauke> | > foldr (\n prod -> n * prod) 1 [0 ..] |
| 07:25:18 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core: Time limit exceeded |
| 07:25:19 | <lambdabot> | mueval.real: ExitFailure 1 |
| 07:25:24 | <ski> | note that both of these "conceptually" start at the end with `1', multiplying backwards in all the factors into that "current product" "backwards accumulator result" |
| 07:25:28 | <mauke> | > foldr (\n prod -> if n == 0 then 0 else n * prod) 1 [0 ..] |
| 07:25:30 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
| 07:25:47 | <ski> | > foldr (\n prod -> n * prod) 1 [1 .. 5] |
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| 07:25:48 | <lambdabot> | 120 |
| 07:25:50 | <yabobay> | if (*) _happened_ to be programmed in a way where it doesn't calculate one of the operands if the other is 0, would it then work? |
| 07:25:55 | <mauke> | yes |
| 07:26:02 | <ski> | > foldr (\n prod -> n * prod) 1 ([1 .. 5] ++ 0 : [6 ..]) |
| 07:26:10 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core: Time limit exceeded |
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| 07:26:24 | <ski> | but in the infinite case, there is no end of the list, so that ^ does not terminate |
| 07:26:37 | <ski> | but with the pre-check for zero, it does |
| 07:27:23 | <ski> | conceptually, this is an "infinite computation in the past", not having a beginning, but having an end (multiplying in the first element of the list) |
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| 07:28:50 | <ski> | so, with the zero check, `f' is non-strict, doesn't always force `prod' (being `foldr (...) 1 xs' for each tail `xs'), and so we don't "look at the infinite past", stop "tracing backwards in time" at some point, causing the computation to bottom out, terminate |
| 07:28:57 | <ski> | yabobay : makes sense ? |
| 07:29:44 | <yabobay> | mhm |
| 07:29:45 | <yabobay> | thanks |
| 07:30:58 | <ski> | with your `map', the `f', that is `\x acc -> f x : acc' is also non-strict in `acc' (because `(:)' is non-strict in its second argument, doesn't force the tail of the list, will only be forced if/when later you look at it) |
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| 07:32:10 | <yabobay> | lazy evaluation in general kinda feels like black magic but i'll probably get used to it at some point |
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| 07:33:27 | <ski> | btw, for `foldl', the `z' argument in `foldl f z (x:xs) = foldl f (f z x) xs' acts as a "forward/downwards accumulator", as opposed to the recursive result `foldr f z xs' in `foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs)' acting like a "backwards/upwards accumulator" .. usually when people say "accumulator", they mean the "downwards/forwards" ones) |
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| 07:34:35 | <yabobay> | uhhhhhh |
| 07:34:39 | <ski> | "isn't 0 * prod = 0 anyway" -- conceptually (in terms of math), yes. "if (*) _happened_ to be programmed in a way where it doesn't calculate one of the operands if the other is 0, would it then work?" -- yes |
| 07:35:20 | <ski> | > let 0 * _ = 0; m * n = m Prelude.* n in foldr (\n prod -> n * prod) 1 ([1 .. 5] ++ 0 : [6 ..]) |
| 07:35:21 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
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| 07:39:27 | <ski> | (oh, and we're speaking specifically about `(*)' on the usual numeric types, like `Int',`Integer',`Rational',`Double',&c. -- if we implement "Peano naturals" like `data Natural = Zero | Succ Natural', it would be natural to define `Zero * _ = Zero; Succ m * n = n + m * n', making it non-strict in second parameter, when first is zero. similarly, `Zero <= _ = True; Succ m <= Zero = False; Succ m <= |
| 07:39:33 | <ski> | Succ n' makes it so that `0 <= inf' (where `inf = Succ inf') terminates) |
| 07:39:38 | rvalue- | is now known as rvalue |
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| 08:24:29 | <ski> | @let data Nat = Z | S Nat deriving (Show,Read) |
| 08:24:30 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 08:24:37 | <ski> | @let instance Eq Nat where {Z == Z = True; S m == S n = m == n; _ == _ = False}; instance Ord Nat where {Z <= _ = True; S m <= Z = False; S m <= S n = m <= n; Z `compare` Z = EQ; Z `compare` S _ = LT; S _ `compare` Z = GT; S m `compare` S n = m `compare` n} |
| 08:24:38 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 08:24:46 | <ski> | @let instance Num Nat where {Z + n = n; S m + n = S (m + n); m - Z = m; S m - S n = m - n; Z * _ = Z; S m * n = n + m * n; negate Z = Z; abs m = m; signum Z = Z; signum (S _) = S Z; fromInteger 0 = Z; fromInteger n | n > 0 = S (fromInteger (n - 1))} |
| 08:24:47 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 08:24:55 | <ski> | @let natToInteger :: Nat -> Integer; natToInteger Z = 0; natToInteger (S n) = 1 + natToInteger n; instance Real Nat where {toRational = toRational . natToInteger} |
| 08:24:56 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 08:25:03 | <ski> | @let instance Enum Nat where {toEnum = fromIntegral; fromEnum = fromIntegral . natToInteger; succ = S; pred (S n) = n; enumFrom n = n : enumFrom (S n); enumFromThen m n = m : enumFromThen n (n - m + n); enumFromTo m n | m > n = [] | otherwise = m : enumFromTo (S m) n; enumFromThenTo m n o | m > o = [] | otherwise = m : enumFromThenTo n (n - m + n) o} |
| 08:25:04 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 08:25:13 | <ski> | @let instance Integral Nat where {n `quotRem` d@(S _) | n < d = (Z ,n) | otherwise = (S q,r) where {(q,r) = (n - d) `quotRem` d}; divMod = quotRem; toInteger = natToInteger} |
| 08:25:14 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 08:27:48 | <ski> | @let inf :: Nat; inf = S inf |
| 08:27:49 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 08:27:59 | <ski> | > Z <= inf |
| 08:28:01 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 08:28:09 | <ski> | > Z * inf |
| 08:28:10 | <lambdabot> | Z |
| 08:28:44 | <ski> | ah, yabobay left |
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| 08:40:43 | <Digit> | :) i've just encountered https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/3ww33x/the_zen_of_haskell/ ... anyone know of a further refined version of the zen of haskell? |
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| 08:44:55 | <Digit> | wondering if there's a "zen of haskell" that's more from first principles of haskell, rather than just trying to make it a tight fit one-for-one with the zen of python piece. |
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| 08:47:49 | <Digit> | i found http://www.haskeller.org/ but it seems a bit more frivolous and ambiguous free flowing poetic fun (e.g. "lazy is better then crazy"). |
| 08:48:14 | <Rembane> | Haskell is kinda free flowing poetic fun though |
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| 09:12:05 | <Digit> | https://medium.com/@gopikrishnan.ganesan/zen-of-functional-programming-1bcb6acc16da while continuing to search, encountered this pleasant piece. not quite the same thing, but, very pleasant none the less. seems a really good functionalprogramming/haskell intro. |
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| 16:50:36 | <mjacob> | Can anyone recommend an IRC or Matrix channel for functional programming in general? |
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| 16:52:21 | <geekosaur> | the only one I know of is on Discord, not IRC or Matrix |
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| 16:57:56 | <ski> | (iirc there's also Usenet newsgroup <news:comp.lang.functional> (how i found my way to here and IRC) .. haven't checked it in some time, though) |
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| 17:13:55 | <monochrom> | Fun fact: Haskell finally got its own Usenet newsgroup, just in time for the last days of Usenet. >:) |
| 17:14:50 | monochrom | blames PHP programmers who couldn't find actually valuable things to do so they invented "web forums" to justify their purpose of existence. |
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| 17:16:31 | <monochrom> | which could have been slightly tolerable if not additionally they went to to prove that they didn't understand tree structures. |
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| 17:18:58 | <int-e> | Usenet... it's more than a distributed file storage for warez! |
| 17:19:06 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 17:19:08 | <int-e> | (and pr0n) |
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| 17:19:36 | <monochrom> | And to think MIME didn't exist back then. |
| 17:19:40 | <ski> | and plonking, cross-posting, flamewars |
| 17:20:47 | <monochrom> | That part is human nature and I'm sure present in coffee house discussions and Hyde Park too. |
| 17:22:03 | <ski> | (i recall seeing some article suggesting an abstract format/API/protocol for thread handling, intended for newsgroups, mailing lists, web fora, and similar, to implement as a common interface, meant to enable more alternative style third-party clients for reading & posting, to get away from the often clunky interfaces for web fora and similar systems) |
| 17:22:10 | <monochrom> | Nevermind, that's a non-sequitor. I don't know why I brought that up. |
| 17:23:35 | <int-e> | monochrom: An Oscar Wilde moment, "I can resist anything but temptation." |
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| 17:24:47 | <int-e> | . o O ( cross-posting, v. - writing a comment with the intent of making the reader cross. see also: trolling ) |
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| 17:25:58 | <ski> | hah |
| 17:26:10 | ski | crosses eyes |
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| 17:28:43 | <monochrom> | For some years I used emacs gnus for unified email+newgroup client. |
| 17:31:19 | <int-e> | What was that usenet client... ah, tin. It's been 2 decades. :P |
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| 17:32:08 | <monochrom> | Yeah I think I ssh'ed to my ISP's shell to run tin before I switched to locally emacs gnus. |
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| 17:40:49 | <monochrom> | Actually even ssh didn't exist that far back, it was rsh/rlogin/telnet. It was also OK because the physical connection is dial-up modem rather than going through arbitrary internet hops. |
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| 17:41:39 | <Rembane> | Only one hop between you and the server and that hop is dial up? |
| 17:41:55 | <monochrom> | Yeah. |
| 17:42:06 | <Rembane> | Sounds safe to me |
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| 17:43:07 | <monochrom> | Safe enough unless state actors are involved. |
| 17:43:50 | <Rembane> | But then nothing is safe |
| 17:44:40 | <monochrom> | It was also way before Echelon, OK? |
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| 17:46:28 | <Rembane> | This one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON |
| 17:47:58 | <monochrom> | Fine I concede. |
| 17:49:41 | <Rembane> | I'm just confused, I'm not trying to prove a point. :) |
| 17:50:07 | <int-e> | monochrom: now everybody knows that you're ancient ;-) |
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| 18:48:42 | <EvanR> | monochrom, having worked momentarily as a technician, with access to the phone terminals in the comm line closets... it wouldn't be that hard to eavesdrop on a conversation in there, without state actor resources! |
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| 18:49:05 | <EvanR> | back when that's how phones worked |
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| 20:56:57 | <talismanick> | The streams package has `data Stream a = a :> (Stream a)`; if I wrap it in `newtype AStream = AStream (Stream a)` and write `append a x@(AStream _) = (:>) a <$> x`, it errors with "couldn't match type 'a' with 'Stream a'" |
| 20:57:11 | <talismanick> | I feel like I'm missing something really obvious.... |
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| 21:06:30 | <EvanR> | ((:>) a) <$> x ? and did you remember to derive Functor |
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| 21:07:14 | <EvanR> | oh you can't derive functor |
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| 21:07:23 | <EvanR> | AStream has the wrong kind |
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| 21:11:43 | <talismanick> | EvanR: err, I meant to write `AStream a = ...` |
| 21:12:10 | <talismanick> | and yeah, I already had `deriving Functor` |
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| 21:13:17 | <talismanick> | Otherwise it would've errored on that |
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| 21:15:14 | <talismanick> | It works if I instead write `append a (AStream s) = AStream $ a :> s` |
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| 21:27:17 | <lyxia> | talismanick: (<$>) on AStream does not do what you think it does. You want it to do f <$> AStream s = AStream (f s) but (<$>) has the wrong type for that |
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| 21:29:19 | <talismanick> | lyxia: you're right |
| 21:29:38 | <talismanick> | I just wrote the instance out manually and... `fmap f (AStream s) = AStream $ f <$> s` |
| 21:29:45 | <talismanick> | which makes sense |
| 21:30:27 | <lyxia> | it's an understandable mistake to make |
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| 22:25:35 | <geekosaur> | I'm going to take the bridge down in a few minutes so I can swap out my router. Optimistically that will take around 15 minutes, reality may be half an hour or longer |
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| 22:33:45 | <geekosaur> | outage about to begin |
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| 23:43:12 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 23:43:41 | <geekosaur> | okay, should be back. matrix side may take some time to catch up as my IP address changed again |
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| 23:47:45 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:47:47 | × | Unicorn_Princess quits (~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:49:57 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:50:22 | → | sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 23:51:46 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:54:34 | → | loreto joins (~loreto@user/loreto) |
| 23:55:48 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:57:07 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:57:34 | → | sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-06-08.