Logs on 2025-06-13 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:50:58 | <Lycurgus> | checking if there is a publiclly available search of the public logs of this channel; just did with google and found it doesn work like it used to, the AI and crap are snagging what used to be straightfwd search |
| 01:52:03 | <Lycurgus> | i have private logs ofc but not the same coverage; didn try matrix; thx in advance for any response(s) |
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| 01:56:11 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 01:56:54 | × | Lycurgus quits (~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: irc.renjuan.org (juan@acm.org)) |
| 01:57:45 | <geekosaur> | there are public logs but search doesn't work |
| 01:57:55 | <geekosaur> | just quit of course |
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| 02:00:27 | <geekosaur> | there is a public log but search is broken |
| 02:00:35 | <Lycurgus> | in the first line "the public logs of this channel" in the context of the sentence implies I knew that |
| 02:01:46 | <Lycurgus> | and by broken I take it you mean disabled for that reason since it doesn appear |
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| 02:02:37 | <Lycurgus> | thx for the response anyway |
| 02:02:49 | <Lycurgus> | verdoppelt |
| 02:04:14 | <geekosaur> | disabled because the indexes take too much space for the VPS AIUI |
| 02:04:53 | <Lycurgus> | google with the site parm still sorta works just so poorly that it might as well not |
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| 02:05:59 | <Lycurgus> | whereas at one point it was basically as good as an internal no frills |
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| 02:08:18 | <Lycurgus> | if something is snagging the google function that would be an easy fix, like it wants permission or hints oder |
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| 10:30:04 | <kqr> | What does it mean to "follow the types"? I was going to use it in a particular context, but then I googled it and it seems like people mean very different things with it. |
| 10:31:51 | <tomsmeding> | sounds like a vague advice |
| 10:32:41 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps "types sanity-check your design, if the types don't match with what you're trying to do, don't fight the compiler but re-think your types"? |
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| 10:33:18 | <tomsmeding> | there's also the related "hole-driven programming" where you let GHC tell you what type it expects and then you incrementally fill something in that has the right type |
| 10:33:25 | <tomsmeding> | but that works only if your types are very precise |
| 10:33:39 | <tomsmeding> | (usually involving GADTs / type families) |
| 10:36:05 | <Leary> | Or very general. |
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| 10:36:26 | <tomsmeding> | true |
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| 10:44:43 | <Leary> | kqr: It may depend on the context, but I generally interpret it to mean "derive values (or their implementations) from types". This doesn't necessarily require those values be uniquely specified, as you can often iterate through them simplest-first. |
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| 10:48:24 | <kuribas`> | I suppose "follow the types" is the opposite from "write your implementation first, then typecheck it". |
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| 10:50:32 | <kuribas`> | I write my code incrementally, and try to keep the types consistent (using typed holes, by following the type errors, rather then trying to coerce the typesystem into checking my code). |
| 10:51:39 | <kuribas`> | Often you need to slightly rethink or rewrite your code to make it typecheck. For example the format library vs printf. |
| 10:51:53 | <kuribas`> | formatting. |
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| 11:59:36 | <kqr> | Huh, interesting. I have only ever thought of "follow the types" as being a way to read documentation and learn how to use a library. |
| 12:00:10 | <kqr> | It could very well be that such was its canonical meaning over a decade ago when I had an active Haskell hobbyist phase, but that it has sinse morphed. |
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| 12:02:06 | <tomsmeding> | kqr: are they not related, somewhat? |
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| 12:03:39 | <tomsmeding> | the suggestions above are about following the types in your own program (and modifying them in a principled fashion if necessary); in the case of a library, you either start with a library function and derive from its types what your code should look like, or you have some types and look at the types in the library to decide which function is applicable |
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| 12:03:55 | <kuribas`> | kqr: if a library doesn't have documentation, it's better to have types. And IMO it's better to have some documentation and types, rather than walls of text and no documentation. sqlalchemy used to be like that (last time I used it many years ago). I don't want to read walls of text to find some particular function that suits my usecase. |
| 12:04:30 | <kuribas`> | IMO documentation doesn't replace types, but types don't replace documentation either. You want a bit of both. |
| 12:05:31 | <tomsmeding> | it's rare that types are simultaneously so precise and so general that without any documentation you can fully understand what a function does |
| 12:05:50 | <tomsmeding> | (id :: a -> a), (const :: a -> b -> a) I guess could be such cases |
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| 12:06:53 | <tomsmeding> | though haskell being haskell, you'd still need documentation to distinguish (flip const :: a -> b -> b) from (seq :: a -> b -> b) :p |
| 12:07:30 | <Leary> | kqr: Documentation lists types and transformations between them; achieving your goal by "following" these links from what you have to what you need is a case of "following the types". |
| 12:08:02 | <tomsmeding> | example: the 'time' library |
| 12:09:29 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: I all too often find that what the type doesn't determine, the name does actually clarify. Then I have to struggle between the poor choices of no documentation and trivial documentation... |
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| 12:10:54 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: my personal issue with documentation in the haddock style is that the longer the doc comments are, the further apart the type signatures are |
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| 12:11:47 | <tomsmeding> | while it's true that one has the Synopsis fold-out thing in haddock, its scroll position isn't linked to that of the main page, and it has no section headings |
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| 12:12:22 | <tomsmeding> | as such it's annoying to get a comprehensive overview of the API available |
| 12:12:56 | <tomsmeding> | so perhaps if the trivial documentation would _really_ be trivial, no documentation may be preferable :p |
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| 12:14:32 | <Leary> | I also lean towards that just because I hate useless words, but I guess the real issue is the stigma of undocumented functions and haddock yelling at me. >.> |
| 12:14:59 | <tomsmeding> | haddock yelling at you is just software yelling at you; it's annoying because it decreases the usefulness of warnings, but so be it |
| 12:15:14 | <tomsmeding> | now, people yelling at you is something different, sure |
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| 12:26:27 | <tomsmeding> | counterpoint, I guess: a friend of mine who is learning haskell with a Java background significantly prefers reading documentation and looking at examples over studying types of library functions |
| 12:26:41 | <tomsmeding> | for e.g. functions like Data.List.map |
| 12:27:02 | <tomsmeding> | so what may seem like trivial documentation to you (and me) may actually help some readers |
| 12:27:08 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: ^ |
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| 12:35:03 | <Leary> | True; if you're writing something that should be accessible to less experienced Haskellers then the translation from Haskell types to English would have its merits. |
| 12:35:20 | <tomsmeding> | right, this depends on what kind of library it is |
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| 12:36:28 | <tomsmeding> | and actually, for something like Data.List.map, an example `map (*2) [1,2,3,4] == [2,4,6,8]` may actually be quicker to read, understand and generalise for a reader than some prose description of what 'map' does |
| 12:37:04 | <tomsmeding> | though more complicated libraries or functions don't really lend themselves to such insightful examples |
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| 12:41:18 | <__monty__> | Automatic edge-case covering examples à la Quickcheck could be useful. Highlighting unexpected behavior with memptys or such. |
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| 12:45:25 | <kuribas`> | tomsmeding: you can reverse that: "it's rare documentation is simultaneously so precise and so general that without any types you can fully understand what a function does" |
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| 12:45:45 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas`: I guess, yes :p |
| 12:46:06 | mari-estel | <3 doctests |
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| 12:48:41 | <kuribas`> | tomsmeding: my take is that you need both, but also different forms of documentation, based on usecase, references, guides, overviews, getting-started, etc... |
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| 12:49:19 | <tomsmeding> | ideally you have various different kinds of documentation for various different audiences and consumption styles, yes |
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| 12:49:58 | <tomsmeding> | but there can be value in discussing how to make low-effort documentation as useful as possible, because realistically, a decent fraction of code on hackage is going to have low-effort documentation only :p |
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| 13:19:02 | <Guest66> | Hi, people its my first time interfacing a IRC client |
| 13:19:36 | <mari-estel> | consider the #libera channel then |
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| 13:20:23 | <tomsmeding> | Guest66: there's not much to learn, welcome :) |
| 13:21:03 | <Guest66> | I really like Haskell, and have talked with community at Reddit and FP-Discord, thought to give this UI a go xD |
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| 13:21:41 | <tomsmeding> | see the topic (probably in a box at the top of the channel log) for useful links |
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| 13:22:14 | <Guest66> | Yep exploring it! |
| 13:23:45 | <tomsmeding> | channel activity has ups and downs; it is quiet now for a bit, but sometimes heated discussions arise :) |
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| 13:26:18 | <tomsmeding> | general advice is to wait around for a couple of days and see how the discourse goes; discussion generally starts by someone asking a haskell-related question |
| 13:26:32 | <tomsmeding> | but if you have any such already, shoot, there's probably someone here who can answer :) |
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| 14:18:06 | <ski> | kqr : i tend to mean the "lego/puzzle-like" mindset of consdering what pieces you have and what you want to construct .. commonly used when you're writing a sufficiently polymorphic (or say taking existential input) operation, but yea, also e.g. GADTs |
| 14:19:32 | ski | . o O ( "Follow the types where they lead. Follow the types where they lead. Follow, follow, follow, follow .. follow the types where they lead." ) |
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| 15:54:46 | prdak1 | is now known as prdak |
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| 17:23:56 | × | tromp quits (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6467:8157:f7e9:c425) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 17:24:24 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 17:24:40 | × | acidjnk quits (~acidjnk@p200300d6e70b6655cc0a0c53443b9588.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 17:27:25 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 17:27:36 | × | haskellbridge quits (~hackager@syn-096-028-224-227.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 17:28:13 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
| 17:28:48 | <geekosaur> | that one was deliberate, everything was idle so I did the weekly pull-and-restart |
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| 17:52:47 | → | Lycurgus joins (~juan@user/Lycurgus) |
| 17:53:22 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 17:53:48 | → | sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 17:53:53 | × | euphores quits (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 17:56:23 | <humasect> | ugh ghcup |
| 17:56:28 | <humasect> | opam was enough. sigh |
| 17:57:04 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 17:58:17 | <EvanR> | ghcup rocks |
| 18:01:05 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 18:01:44 | → | euphores joins (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) |
| 18:02:23 | <humasect> | oh |
| 18:02:35 | <Lycurgus> | doesn need defending |
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| 18:54:21 | × | humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Quit: Leaving...) |
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| 19:00:59 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 19:01:40 | × | tromp quits (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6467:8157:f7e9:c425) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
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| 19:17:14 | → | machinedgod joins (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 19:18:15 | <monochrom> | Follow the type piper where they lead. >:) |
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| 20:18:36 | pyooque | is now known as puke |
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| 22:11:35 | × | CiaoSen quits (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 22:12:16 | × | vanishingideal quits (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:13:01 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
| 22:13:02 | × | haskellbridge quits (~hackager@syn-096-028-224-227.res.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 22:13:27 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 22:18:46 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 22:33:46 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 23:32:23 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
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| 23:47:27 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-06-13.