Logs on 2025-06-20 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:03:02 | × | jespada quits (~jespada@179.26.250.100) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 00:06:09 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
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| 00:12:11 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
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| 00:21:46 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 00:24:54 | <geekosaur> | okay, let's see how this works |
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| 02:19:33 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 02:40:39 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 03:06:35 | puke | is now known as Guest9091 |
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| 03:18:43 | × | inline quits (~inline@ip-005-146-196-202.um05.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
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| 03:26:28 | <geekosaur> | dammit, still bouncing |
| 03:27:24 | <geekosaur> | oddly, it isn't showing in the logs at all |
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| 05:41:45 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 06:45:09 | trickard___ | is now known as trickard |
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| 09:50:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> I need some input from somebody with type-fool knowledge |
| 09:50:43 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> https://play.haskell.org/saved/vc4ycTs6 |
| 09:50:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> In particular, the definitions of bar and baz |
| 09:51:17 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> I’d like GHC to infer the HasField instances via divide2 automatically, but it is stumped |
| 09:51:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> I tried the r1 ~ r2 trick, but that does not seem to work |
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| 09:53:15 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> I feel like it should be possible in principle |
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| 09:56:21 | <ames> | this is just a monomorphism restriction thing |
| 09:57:14 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> ames: Oh you mean cause GHC needs to infer monomorphic types for toplevel |
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| 09:58:03 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> I want to make use of Divisible contravariants ergonomic, but without too much overloading going on; I guess if I just use it somewhere in code it should be fine |
| 09:58:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> ames: But then again, ideally HLS could infer the function signature nonetheless |
| 09:58:58 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> cause it should follow directly from the definition of divide2 |
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| 09:59:47 | <ames> | well the problem is exactly that it's not a function and ghc does not want to make it one by quantifying over your HasField(s) |
| 10:00:00 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> what’s not a function? |
| 10:00:16 | <ames> | baz |
| 10:01:40 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> ames: ohh! if I reformulate as baz bar = divide2 #foo stringT #bar bar |
| 10:01:47 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> It does work |
| 10:02:39 | <ames> | https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/monomorphism.html |
| 10:05:12 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> ames: Can I specify a type defaulting rule for this function? |
| 10:05:59 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> No I guess that’s only if I control the type class |
| 10:09:09 | <ames> | i don't know really how defaulting works and i don't want to find out either i consider it a misfeature |
| 10:12:46 | <ames> | but like is there an actual problem here? if you turn off the monomorphism restriction or just add a dummy argument to baz ghc infers exactly the type you want (± the dummy argument, i guess) |
| 10:13:28 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> field :: forall f l a b. (Contravariant f, HasField l a b) => LabelPrx l -> f b -> f a |
| 10:13:28 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> field LabelPrx a = getField @l >$< a |
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| 10:13:47 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> bar _ = field #foo textT <> "foo" <> (field #bar naturalDecimalT) |
| 10:13:47 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> bar :: (HasField "foo" a Text, HasField "bar" a Natural) => p -> TextBuilder a |
| 10:14:17 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> Things are looking bright for contravariant syntax |
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| 10:14:42 | <tomsmeding> | defaulting is for guessing an instantiation for an ambiguous type variable based on the type class constraints on that variable |
| 10:14:53 | <tomsmeding> | doesn't sound relevant here |
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| 10:16:53 | <tomsmeding> | Profpatch: "because it follows directly from the definition of divide2" -- no, how the type inference algorithm works is it first instantiates all forall quantifiers with unknown type variables ("unification variables"), collects all constraints arising from your program and instantiates type variables in order to satisfy the constraints, and then looks at the result |
| 10:17:35 | <tomsmeding> | then, if a function definition without a type signature still has unknown unification variables, they are implicitly "generalised" by introducing a forall quantifier for them |
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| 10:17:52 | <tomsmeding> | any constraints that existed on them become constraints on the function |
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| 10:18:24 | <tomsmeding> | if the monomorphism restriction is enabled, GHC will only do this final generalisation process for things that are already functions, i.e. have >=1 argument |
| 10:18:53 | <tomsmeding> | because those constraints become actual arguments at runtime (dictionary translation), and hence for a non-function, that generalisation process would _make it a function_ |
| 10:19:33 | <tomsmeding> | a non-function has the interesting property that once evaluated, it will not be evaluated again; when it's a (polymorphic) function, every use will implicitly apply it to its type class dictionaries, and hence it will be recomputed at every use site |
| 10:19:59 | <tomsmeding> | because this can be a very unexpected and undesirable introduction of recomputation (and hence slowness), GHC refuses to do this by default |
| 10:21:22 | <tomsmeding> | Profpatsch: here is an alternative: write `baz :: _ => Build r` and enable -XPartialTypeSignatures, and perhaps set -Wno-partial-type-signatures |
| 10:21:39 | <tomsmeding> | that will cause GHC to infer the polymorphic type, without you having to write out the constraints |
| 10:22:01 | <tomsmeding> | and without having to disable the monomorphism restriction, which is a rather big hammer that you'd like to leave sowed away if possible |
| 10:22:09 | <tomsmeding> | *stowed |
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| 10:24:34 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> tomsmeding: takk for explanation |
| 10:24:52 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> I added an _ to coerce it to a function and now it works |
| 10:25:14 | <tomsmeding> | if that works for you, then that's a solution too, indeed |
| 10:25:34 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> I think I’m also, like, the first person to find a dual to "do" notation for Divide? |
| 10:25:40 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> I haven’t seen it before |
| 10:26:08 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> It’s like a holy grail that was just lying on the floor in the corner somewhere |
| 10:28:23 | <tomsmeding> | side-note: I highly doubt that 'INLINE divide2' pragma is necessary |
| 10:29:58 | <tomsmeding> | Profpatsch: first time looking at contravariant, but isn't 'adapt >$< a `divided` b' the same as 'divide adapt a b' |
| 10:31:49 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> probably |
| 10:32:30 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> I don’t much care for games of find the prettier definition |
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| 14:37:44 | <geekosaur> | on subsequent review, the disconnects seem to be me accidentally doing things that made the router reset/reconfigure (still figuring out what's safe), looking up. (last night's disconnect was me disabling wifi7 on 2.4 because it was interfering with bluetooth connections) |
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| 14:40:06 | <[exa]> | geekosaur: how much RAM does it need? I can throw it at a VM or so |
| 14:40:53 | <geekosaur> | right now it's untuned and the postgresql instance is using a fair amount |
| 14:41:55 | <geekosaur> | what I really want is for HF to sponsor me (request is in but have heard nothing yet) which will allow me to move it to IPv6-capable hosting and switch to appservice_irc (puppeted connections on both sides) |
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| 14:43:55 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: do you have an idea of the specs of the machine you'd need? |
| 14:44:13 | <tomsmeding> | (how expensive would this be) |
| 14:44:54 | <geekosaur> | not really yet, since I don't know how much RAM the new appservice will use. (one advantage of the HF plan is I should be able to use someone else's postgres, which as I said is currently the biggest memory hog) |
| 14:47:13 | <tomsmeding> | for databases, I tought that RAM is typically not a hard-required commodity |
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| 14:47:36 | <tomsmeding> | if you have more than a particular lower limit, then giving the DB less RAM just results in more disk IO and thus higher latency |
| 14:48:04 | <[exa]> | postgres can be tuned down a lot, esp if you don't care about raw throughput |
| 14:48:49 | <tomsmeding> | and if you run things on a stupid VM in the cloud, then wearing down disks is not your concern :p |
| 14:49:02 | <tomsmeding> | *wearing out, I guess |
| 14:49:48 | <[exa]> | btw not sure how it's nowadays but ~10 years ago the individual connections to postgres were quite resource-heavy, so if you threw some kind of pgbouncer in front of that and configured it to stream easy queries into say 2 connections, everything was suddenly very efficient |
| 14:50:14 | <tomsmeding> | one would hope that synapse does connection pooling |
| 14:50:29 | <[exa]> | I'd bet not |
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| 14:50:43 | <tomsmeding> | isn't connection pooling like the most basic feature of every PHP web framework |
| 14:50:59 | <tomsmeding> | I can't believe a large-scale Python webserver doesn't do DB connection pooling |
| 14:52:07 | <[exa]> | I'd like to optimistically agree |
| 14:52:10 | <[exa]> | :D |
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| 15:04:51 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: seems to do pooling just fine |
| 15:04:58 | <tomsmeding> | https://github.com/element-hq/synapse/blob/74ca7ae720c9fdb09a2271ade28d909132bd9b7b/docs/postgres.md?plain=1#L72 |
| 15:05:04 | <tomsmeding> | https://docs.twisted.org/en/stable/api/twisted.enterprise.adbapi.ConnectionPool.html#__init__ |
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| 15:05:42 | <tomsmeding> | or at least, the indicators are there, I didn't prove that all requests go through the pool |
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| 17:18:57 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: ah ok that might work. the other issue with these is that the pooling in python simply just becomes a resource hog instead of the database client-threads |
| 17:19:09 | <[exa]> | well let's see |
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| 17:22:28 | <ski> | @remember JeremyGibbons Recursion is the assembly language of functional programming, and the tail-call is its goto. |
| 17:22:28 | <lambdabot> | It is stored. |
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| 17:40:13 | <tomsmeding> | hot take that lacks some nuance |
| 17:40:58 | <c_wraith> | some, but it points in a valid direction for exploration |
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| 17:41:05 | <tomsmeding> | that's true |
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| 21:27:06 | <monochrom> | I thought first-class continuations was the goto. :) |
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| 21:36:30 | <monochrom> | OK OK both goto and comeback >:) |
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| 22:05:01 | <EvanR> | comefrom |
| 22:05:26 | <EvanR> | the logical extreme conclusion of imperative programming |
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| 22:10:10 | <Clint> | lulz |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-06-20.