Logs on 2025-06-23 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:28:11 | <hololeap> | how can I get System.Directory.OsPath to talk with System.Posix.Files.PosixString? OsPath can't be coerced into a PosixPath |
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| 01:31:11 | <hololeap> | specifically, I'd like to feed the output of listDirectory into (traverse getFileStatus) so I can get the FileStatus for an entire directory, for the purpose of knowing which is a directory, symlink, etc |
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| 02:22:48 | <hololeap> | I figured it out |
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| 03:44:29 | <mange> | What did you do to get it working? |
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| 03:46:26 | <EvanR> | the solution classically exists |
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| 04:01:56 | <mauke> | use either System.Directory.listDirectory + System.Posix.Files.getSymbolicLinkStatus (both FilePath) or System.Directory.OsPath.listDirectory + ystem.Directory.Internal.getSymbolicLinkMetadata (both OsPath) |
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| 07:36:35 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Im making a presentation for my thesis and i want to include something scary at the end, whats the most complex practical type signature you can think of? Lenses are complex but also done to hell, so something new perhaps |
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| 07:41:28 | <yin> | magic_rb: would a type error do the trick? |
| 07:43:59 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: https://git.tomsmeding.com/chad-fast/tree/src/Simplify.hs#n461 |
| 07:50:04 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Type error? Sure if it looks scary :P |
| 07:50:08 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> And thanks tom :) |
| 07:50:31 | <tomsmeding> | I was convinced accelerate had some scary types but can't find any noe |
| 07:50:33 | <tomsmeding> | *now |
| 07:52:39 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: apparently this has been in accelerate at some point https://tomsmeding.com/vang/pPEUWn/Untitled.png |
| 07:53:31 | <dutchie> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/servant-0.20.2/docs/src/Servant.Links.html#line-459 |
| 07:53:42 | <dutchie> | if you don't mind an instance declaration rather than a function |
| 07:56:00 | <tomsmeding> | oh if just long constraint lists already count then https://github.com/ivogabe/accelerate/blob/new-pipeline/src/Data/Array/Accelerate/Trafo.hs#L90 |
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| 08:06:28 | <dutchie> | f -> String is a bit boring after all the constraints though |
| 08:06:52 | <tomsmeding> | it is |
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| 10:45:16 | <[exa]> | is there some common coined name for data structures that allow concurrent access for many readers but only a single writer (ie. all writes have to be serialized)? |
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| 10:47:34 | <__monty__> | Is this one of those elementary things that never got named successfully? |
| 10:47:41 | <[exa]> | likely |
| 10:48:57 | <[exa]> | (I've got 2 variants of a segmented data structure here, with the many-writer having a more complex locking scheme and way more overhead) |
| 10:50:10 | <[exa]> | whatevs, I'll mark them SW and CW like serialized writer and concurrent writer |
| 10:50:25 | <[exa]> | doubles nicely with "simple" and "complex" |
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| 10:56:21 | <Maxdamantus> | [exa]: in Rust I think I've seen it called "mcsp", or maybe it was "spmc". |
| 10:56:28 | <Maxdamantus> | as opposed to "mpsc". |
| 10:57:42 | <Maxdamantus> | actually, maybe that doesn't exist. I kind of assumed it did, since there is "mpsc" in std. |
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| 10:59:07 | <Maxdamantus> | I guess "mpmc" covers the use case, but that's more general than what you're asking for. |
| 10:59:28 | <[exa]> | what does 'p' and 'c' stand for there? |
| 10:59:34 | <Maxdamantus> | producer, consumer |
| 10:59:36 | <[exa]> | oh producer and consumer |
| 10:59:55 | <Maxdamantus> | multi-producer single-consumer, multi-producer multi-consumer |
| 11:00:02 | <[exa]> | but that's more like for communion channel kind of things, right? |
| 11:00:06 | <[exa]> | *communication |
| 11:00:47 | <[exa]> | anyway yeah I guess that's exactly what I wasn't able to recall |
| 11:00:56 | <[exa]> | doesn't fit totally but so far closest :D |
| 11:01:24 | <Maxdamantus> | Well, if you don't want a queue, I guess what you want is just a read-write lock. |
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| 11:01:54 | <Maxdamantus> | (though again, a read-write lock is theoretically more general, since it allows multiple writers) |
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| 11:02:19 | <[exa]> | it's for a store of inverted indices, kinda like lucene segments |
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| 11:03:11 | <Maxdamantus> | actually, I guess there could be a wording issue here. when you say single writer, are you saying your code is already guaranteed to only write from one thread, or are you saying that the datastructure must enforce that? |
| 11:03:12 | <[exa]> | so there's a whole lock hierarchy, the actual top is kinda compare-and-swapped very rarely by the writers |
| 11:03:19 | <Maxdamantus> | if it's the latter, then that's exactly what a read-write lock is. |
| 11:03:26 | <[exa]> | nah there's 2 ways to implement the data structure |
| 11:03:35 | <[exa]> | so I'm finding the proper labels to distinguish them :D |
| 11:04:13 | <[exa]> | there's one kinda simple as lucene does which must have all writes managed by one program, and there's another way which can have multiple independent writers but the locking gets quite complex |
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| 11:05:37 | <Maxdamantus> | I'd probably just call it a read-write lock tbh. If you want to optimise it such that it assumes noone else will try to acquire the write lock while the write lock is already held, you could just come up with a variation of the name. |
| 11:06:07 | <Maxdamantus> | eg, DangerousReadWriteLock or something. |
| 11:06:09 | <[exa]> | but that's common to both structures |
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| 11:07:27 | <Maxdamantus> | "both structures"? are you talking about two types of read-write lock, where one is the "dangerous" variant that makes the assumption I described above? |
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| 11:07:51 | <Maxdamantus> | and where the other is just a plain read-write lock, where the write lock part is essentially a mutex? |
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| 11:20:12 | <[exa]> | no, 2 different designs of a data structure, one that allows concurrent writes and reads but the writes have to be managed by a central point to avoid write conflicts (in turn the locking scheme there is a bit easier, something like the RCUs in kernels), and one that allows concurrent writes without any other synchronization going on, because the structure is more complex and thus "ready" for it |
| 11:20:13 | <[exa]> | (read: there's many lockpoints and some extra buffers for handling the possible write conflicts) |
| 11:21:40 | <[exa]> | (btw no mutexes, mutexes don't do availability well) |
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| 11:27:07 | <Maxdamantus> | [exa]: that sounds like the distinction I was describing. Normally a read-write lock will "allow concurrent writes" by ensuring that only one actor can hold the lock when they access it in write mode. |
| 11:28:25 | <Maxdamantus> | [exa]: so the one you describe as easier just seems like a variation of a read-write lock that assumes that while the lock is held in write mode, noone else will try to acquire it again in write mode. |
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| 11:28:30 | <[exa]> | yes but that's a completely impossible behavior here, writes must not cause locks |
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| 11:29:32 | <[exa]> | (pls check out the lucene segmentation) |
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| 16:18:09 | <mreh> | I'm doing some emulation, and need to cast a Word8 (raw memory) to an Int8. Is it safe to unsafeCoerce? |
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| 16:19:22 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Use coerce, if its works, its safe |
| 16:19:43 | <mreh> | I knew I'd get chewed out for writing that |
| 16:19:52 | <EvanR> | it doesn't work |
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| 16:19:57 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Ghc will magically derive the Coercible instance if the runtime rep is the same, i think |
| 16:20:00 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Nevermind |
| 16:20:02 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Lol |
| 16:20:10 | <EvanR> | Couldn't match representation of type ‘Int8’ with that of ‘Word8’ |
| 16:20:20 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> But i think unsafeCoerce should be ok? |
| 16:20:26 | <EvanR> | maybe |
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| 16:22:50 | <EvanR> | they left but I would look for a primitive conversion |
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| 16:23:30 | <tomsmeding> | mreh: why not fromIntegral? |
| 16:23:32 | <EvanR> | if it doesn't already exist use it to write a normal function which munges the newtype wrappers and does the conversion |
| 16:23:36 | <EvanR> | or that |
| 16:23:49 | <mreh> | sorry, crashed |
| 16:23:53 | mreh | checks logs |
| 16:23:56 | <tomsmeding> | > map fromIntegral [0 :: Word8, 100, 200, 255] |
| 16:23:57 | <lambdabot> | [0,100,200,255] |
| 16:24:02 | <tomsmeding> | > map fromIntegral [0 :: Word8, 100, 200, 255] :: [Int8] |
| 16:24:04 | <lambdabot> | [0,100,-56,-1] |
| 16:24:16 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> tomsmeding does it optimize properly? |
| 16:24:22 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> It should compile to a noop |
| 16:24:30 | <tomsmeding> | there are tons of rewrite rules for fromIntegral, let me check |
| 16:24:42 | <mreh> | that was not how I expect fromIntegral to work |
| 16:25:22 | <EvanR> | also a C style cast from Word8 to Int8 isn't the same as unsafeCoerce |
| 16:25:30 | <EvanR> | it's more like the above |
| 16:25:43 | <tomsmeding> | mreh: how did you expect it to work? |
| 16:25:54 | <mreh> | tomsmeding: good point |
| 16:27:07 | <mreh> | it's only a gameboy interpreter, no need to blazingly fast optimizations |
| 16:27:29 | <EvanR> | a baseline expectation for this operation would be, if the value is representable by both Word8 and Int8 then the conversion leaves the value unchanged |
| 16:27:38 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: https://play.haskell.org/saved/5AlmTIJY |
| 16:27:53 | <tomsmeding> | the 2* and +1 added to see where the actual user code is |
| 16:28:05 | <tomsmeding> | in Core you can see that fromIntegral becomes GHC.Prim.word8ToInt8# |
| 16:28:22 | <tomsmeding> | when you click Asm, you see that it becomes two adjacent assembly instructions, addb and shlb |
| 16:28:42 | <tomsmeding> | plenty of administration around it but that looks unrelated to the integer conversion |
| 16:29:07 | <EvanR> | that the answer to this question ended up amounting to doing a conversion is great |
| 16:29:11 | <EvanR> | because unsafeCoerce doesn't |
| 16:29:16 | <tomsmeding> | mreh: an alternative implementation of fromIntegral would have been: throw a runtime error if the value is not as-is representable in the target type |
| 16:29:47 | <tomsmeding> | even better would have been static restrictions like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/int-cast does |
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| 16:31:21 | <mreh> | I wasn't expecting the answer to be fromIntegral, but there you go |
| 16:31:25 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: unsafeCoerce is actually _slower_ in this case because unsafeCoerce works on lifted values |
| 16:31:29 | <tomsmeding> | https://play.haskell.org/saved/jR3HVPQ5 |
| 16:32:07 | <tomsmeding> | writing 2 * unsafeCoerce (x + 1) requires GHC to box the Word8# result of 'x +# 1#' to a Word8 again, dereference the pointer again but now as an Int8, and do the 2* on the Int8# |
| 16:32:22 | <tomsmeding> | because GHC receives from unsafeCoerce an equality of Int8 and Word8, not of Int8# and Word8# |
| 16:32:52 | <tomsmeding> | now in this case you could probably use unsafeCoerce# on the unboxed values inside, and it would work on processors that put 8-bit signed and unsigned integers in the same registers (which is all of them) |
| 16:33:09 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Right so unsafeCoerce breaks the unboxed arithmetic magic, interesting |
| 16:33:27 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> To use unsafeCoerce# youd have to write unbox code which is a pain in the arse |
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| 16:33:53 | <tomsmeding> | but unsafeCoerce# is really unsafe: if you unsafeCoerce# a Double# to a Word64#, which one would think should just work on a machine with 64-bit doubles, GHC will generate Word64# instructions on a floating-point register and you'll get syntax errors from your assembler |
| 16:33:55 | <tomsmeding> | been there, done that |
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| 16:34:20 | <EvanR> | hold on unsafeCoerce isn't a no-op? |
| 16:34:27 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: it's a no-op on boxed values |
| 16:34:40 | <EvanR> | e.g. Int8 and Word8 |
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| 16:34:44 | <tomsmeding> | but GHC aggressively unboxes arithmetic, as it should |
| 16:34:46 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 16:35:05 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Yeah unsafeCoerce breaks the unboxed arithmetic optimization sadly |
| 16:35:25 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> tomsmeding getting syntax errors from your assembler, good one XD |
| 16:35:30 | <EvanR> | a no-op that is slow |
| 16:35:33 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 16:35:39 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Only in this case :P |
| 16:35:44 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Other wise its a noop |
| 16:36:03 | <mreh> | what does GHC do? rebox then unbox it again? |
| 16:36:42 | mreh | reads up, ah looks like it |
| 16:36:52 | <[exa]> | I wish to know how'd someone manage to turn i8 to u8 conversion into a cost centre |
| 16:37:37 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: they didn't, I think, mreh just wanted the thing that fromIntegral does but somehow expected fromIntegral to do something different |
| 16:38:36 | <mreh> | it's not intuitive, at least to me, but I guess the value wraps and it gets the right answer |
| 16:38:36 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: https://play.haskell.org/saved/ygIqjecU |
| 16:38:54 | <tomsmeding> | using Int and not Word64 because GHC has nice unboxed literal syntax for Int# but not for Word64# |
| 16:39:33 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> [exa] yeah the optimization was completely my fault, i took as a "hey it should be a noop" challenge |
| 16:39:55 | <[exa]> | yeah I know, was just curious :D |
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| 16:40:27 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: you might also appreciate https://play.haskell.org/saved/ygIqjecU |
| 16:40:36 | <tomsmeding> | in case you hadn't seen that yet |
| 16:41:28 | <[exa]> | yes that's just...lovely I guess :D |
| 16:42:13 | <tomsmeding> | I actually ran into this in practice because I wanted to do a primitive compare-and-swap on a storable vector of Doubles, but GHC only provides a CAS primop on Int |
| 16:42:23 | <tomsmeding> | which makes sense because CPUs generally only provide it on native words |
| 16:42:53 | <tomsmeding> | so I thought, well, I'll just unsafeCoerce# the Double# to an Int#, right? It's the same number of bits, and CAS doesn't care about the contents of those bits |
| 16:43:00 | <tomsmeding> | cue assembler syntax error |
| 16:43:11 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Howd you solve the problem? |
| 16:43:43 | <tomsmeding> | word64ToWord# . stfDOubleToWord64 :: Double# -> Word# |
| 16:43:47 | <tomsmeding> | *stg, not stf |
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| 16:44:04 | <tomsmeding> | the primop is atomicCasWordAddr# -- it works on Word#, not Int#, I misremembered |
| 16:44:09 | <tomsmeding> | https://github.com/tomsmeding/ad-dualrev-th/blob/master/src/Data/Vector/Storable/Mutable/CAS.hs |
| 16:45:09 | <tomsmeding> | who said haskell was a high-level language |
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| 16:45:42 | <EvanR> | haskell is the best low level bit bashing language? |
| 16:45:49 | <tomsmeding> | I'm not sure about "best" |
| 16:45:52 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 16:46:17 | <EvanR> | standard C does not have all these primitives so it might be beating C at "low level" |
| 16:46:17 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Only people that have not interacted with the haskell community say that haskell is a high level language |
| 16:46:31 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Ive been saying its a low level systems language since forever |
| 16:46:57 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: are you specifically referring to ISO standardised C, or C as implemented in practice? |
| 16:47:10 | <tomsmeding> | because Haskell2010 certainly also doesn't have stgDoubleToWord64 |
| 16:47:30 | <EvanR> | I was unscrupulously comparing standardized C to defacto haskell |
| 16:47:39 | <tomsmeding> | that's what I suspected |
| 16:47:41 | <EvanR> | lol |
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| 16:48:42 | tomsmeding | will be afk for a while |
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| 18:52:31 | <[exa]> | kinda open question ---- after reading the description here https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.21.0.0/docs/GHC-IO-Handle.html#v:hLock , one could believe that the hLock almost surely uses flock() internally, and certainly doesn't do any fcntl() locking, right? |
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| 18:55:46 | <mauke> | "The implementation uses LockFileEx on Windows and flock otherwise [...] We deliberately choose to not provide fcntl based locking instead because of its broken semantics." |
| 18:59:05 | <geekosaur> | which of course gets shot down on systems which emulate flock with fcntl |
| 18:59:22 | <geekosaur> | (although I'm not sure how many such exist these days) |
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| 19:40:07 | <[exa]> | mauke geekosaur: yeah so on a typical mainstream linux it actually does fcntl as the first try |
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| 19:40:21 | <mauke> | what? |
| 19:40:27 | <[exa]> | luckily not the SETLK but some other even more exotic locking |
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| 19:40:52 | <[exa]> | (F_GETLK vs F_OFD_GETLK) |
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| 19:41:29 | <[exa]> | like, it's a good choice in the end but I guess I'll open a MR to update the docstring at least |
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| 19:44:59 | <mauke> | oh, linux specific |
| 19:45:09 | <mauke> | and semantically like flock |
| 19:46:17 | <mauke> | ... but glibc flock() still uses the flock syscall |
| 19:47:48 | <[exa]> | ah ok it's "fixed" already https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/25629 |
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| 21:43:00 | <monochrom> | magic_rb: (Belated) I once expanded "Cont r a -> (a -> Cont r b) -> Cont r b" to "understand" it. :) |
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| 21:46:17 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> monochrom im not following :( |
| 21:46:54 | <monochrom> | You asked for practical scary types. |
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| 21:47:41 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Oh |
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| 21:47:49 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Well, it doesnt _look_ scary |
| 21:48:01 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> This is meant for people that dont speak haskell :P |
| 21:48:15 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I just didnt want to put complete bollocks on the slide |
| 21:48:46 | <monochrom> | Right, you have to expand Cont r a to (a -> r) -> r throughout |
| 21:49:13 | <monochrom> | ((a -> r) -> r) -> (a -> (b -> r) -> r) -> (b -> r) -> r |
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| 21:55:18 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> tomsmeding my irc bridge is down, if youve got nothing better to do you can come to my thesis presentation on thursday :P |
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| 22:26:36 | <ski> | @djinn ((a -> s) -> a) -> (a -> (b -> s) -> b) -> (b -> s) -> b |
| 22:26:36 | <lambdabot> | f a b c = b (a (\ d -> c (b d c))) c |
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| 23:02:52 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> What am i even looking at |
| 23:02:55 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Im so confuswd |
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| 23:04:59 | <ski> | @where impossible |
| 23:05:00 | <lambdabot> | <http://math.andrej.com/2007/09/28/seemingly-impossible-functional-programs/>,<http://math.andrej.com/2008/11/21/a-haskell-monad-for-infinite-search-in-finite-time/> |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-06-23.