Logs on 2025-06-26 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:17 | × | yin quits (~z@user/zero) (Quit: quit) |
| 00:02:26 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 00:03:22 | × | acidjnk quits (~acidjnk@p200300d6e70b66774dc61cafa8d9b5a9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 00:05:02 | → | yin joins (~z@user/zero) |
| 00:12:06 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 00:19:14 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 00:23:02 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 00:25:56 | → | j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
| 00:29:29 | × | trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-52-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 00:29:47 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
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| 00:34:29 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 00:35:34 | → | j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
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| 00:38:29 | × | anselmschueler quits (~Thunderbi@user/schuelermine) (Quit: anselmschueler) |
| 00:42:24 | × | tmciver quits (~tim@syn-198-255-177-240.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 00:42:30 | → | j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
| 00:43:27 | → | tmciver joins (~tim@syn-198-255-177-240.res.spectrum.com) |
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| 00:51:12 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 00:52:29 | × | xff0x quits (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:e48a:913:45b8:8077) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 00:53:56 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 00:54:43 | × | tmciver quits (~tim@syn-198-255-177-240.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 00:55:08 | → | tmciver joins (~tim@syn-198-255-177-240.res.spectrum.com) |
| 00:56:25 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
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| 01:01:44 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 01:02:45 | × | k0zy quits (~user@user/k0zy) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 01:02:58 | × | ttybitnik quits (~ttybitnik@user/wolper) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 01:03:08 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
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| 01:08:25 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 01:08:43 | → | j1n37- joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
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| 01:15:24 | → | j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
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| 01:18:55 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
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| 01:34:42 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 01:35:55 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 01:36:09 | → | poscat joins (~poscat@user/poscat) |
| 01:38:41 | × | adamCS quits (~adamCS@70.19.85.77) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 01:39:36 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 01:41:57 | → | j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
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| 01:45:19 | × | emmanuelux quits (~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 01:46:55 | × | tmciver quits (~tim@syn-198-255-177-240.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 01:47:40 | × | Square quits (~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
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| 01:48:38 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 01:50:02 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 01:50:20 | → | sabathan2 joins (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
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| 01:57:26 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 02:00:07 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 02:03:07 | → | j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
| 02:08:34 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 02:10:29 | × | poscat quits (~poscat@user/poscat) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 02:10:54 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 02:13:19 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 02:14:03 | → | j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
| 02:14:23 | → | poscat joins (~poscat@user/poscat) |
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| 02:22:08 | × | tavare quits (~tavare@150.129.88.189) (Changing host) |
| 02:22:08 | → | tavare joins (~tavare@user/tavare) |
| 02:23:20 | × | tavare quits (~tavare@user/tavare) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 02:24:21 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 02:26:30 | × | poscat quits (~poscat@user/poscat) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 02:27:30 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 02:28:41 | → | poscat joins (~poscat@user/poscat) |
| 02:29:12 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
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| 02:36:22 | × | poscat quits (~poscat@user/poscat) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 02:39:49 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 02:40:07 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 02:40:20 | → | weary-traveler joins (~user@user/user363627) |
| 02:42:37 | × | infinity0 quits (~infinity0@pwned.gg) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
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| 02:44:52 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
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| 02:56:11 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 02:58:09 | → | j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
| 02:59:00 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 03:01:12 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 03:01:14 | catties | is now known as Catty |
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| 03:03:33 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 03:04:19 | × | tmciver quits (~tim@syn-198-255-177-240.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 03:05:08 | inline_ | is now known as inline |
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| 03:14:29 | × | aforemny quits (~aforemny@i577B131D.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
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| 03:21:15 | → | machinedgod joins (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) |
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| 03:22:59 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 03:23:13 | × | trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-52-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 03:23:25 | → | trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-52-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 03:25:38 | × | monochrom quits (trebla@216.138.220.146) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 03:26:03 | → | j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
| 03:27:11 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 03:30:10 | × | sabathan2 quits (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 03:33:59 | → | monochrom joins (~trebla@216.138.220.146) |
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| 03:38:12 | × | img quits (~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
| 03:41:00 | → | img joins (~img@user/img) |
| 03:44:39 | × | inline quits (~inline@ip-005-146-197-162.um05.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 03:45:32 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
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| 03:50:08 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
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| 04:25:57 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 04:27:36 | → | stilgart joins (~Christoph@2001:41d0:2:8673::42) |
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| 04:31:32 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 04:46:20 | × | ChaiTRex quits (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Quit: ChaiTRex) |
| 04:48:48 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 04:50:11 | × | trickard_ quits (~trickard@cpe-52-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 04:50:24 | → | trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-52-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 04:50:44 | → | ChaiTRex joins (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) |
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| 05:01:26 | × | soverysour quits (~soverysou@84.232.150.142) (Changing host) |
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| 05:04:40 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 05:09:09 | × | machinedgod quits (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 05:10:45 | → | olivial_ joins (~benjaminl@c-76-144-39-121.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
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| 05:35:31 | × | trickard_ quits (~trickard@cpe-52-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 06:03:14 | × | peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 06:03:14 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 06:05:32 | × | soverysour quits (~soverysou@user/soverysour) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 06:10:28 | × | Sgeo quits (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 06:20:22 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 06:51:14 | × | ft quits (~ft@p508db5d0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving) |
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| 11:12:20 | ski | . o O ( "What difference lists actually are" in 2025-04-12 at <https://www.hedonisticlearning.com/posts/functional-lists-are-not-difference-lists.html> ) |
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| 11:37:39 | <sshine> | I used Haskell for a live code for a job interview (for a non-Haskell job, though). I was a little nervous because if you're asked to do algorithms that rely on mutable arrays, it gets pointy-haired. but I was literally asked "implement a linked list" and "write permutations :: [a] -> [[a]]" :-D |
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| 11:44:12 | <merijn> | sshine: Even mutable arrays is pretty easy, you can just use ST or IO for that |
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| 11:48:55 | <sshine> | merijn, eh, I wouldn't say it's pretty easy. if I search for how to, I get 1) a StackOverflow post that suggests I should use PrimMonad m => a -> m (MutableArray (PrimState m) a), 2) a Reddit post that links to a particular chapter of the Haskell wiki on arrays, which is the ST approach; listed 3rd in a list of 10 possible ways to do it. I would actually go for ST, because my memory tells me that's a good |
| 11:49:01 | <sshine> | way, but I'd reserve "easy" for something like "linked lists" :-D |
| 11:50:14 | <sshine> | and a ton of Reddit replies saying "do you really need mutable arrays?" :-D |
| 11:50:45 | <sshine> | probably a lot of DP will work with an immutable, lazy array, which is a lot easier. |
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| 11:51:51 | <sshine> | I'd definitely want to practice a little with those data types before interviewing, so I'm not stuck resolving some weird constraint kind, leaving the interviewer puzzled as to why things need to be so hard. |
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| 11:52:40 | <sshine> | vs. foo[i] = 42, and moving on. |
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| 12:15:42 | <yin> | wait, using (xs ++) delegates the creation of xs until a final list is fed to it? so you can chain (xs ++) . (ys ++) . (zs ++) to make the construction of the whole list happen at once? |
| 12:16:25 | <__monty__> | And fusion may make the resulting list not be constructed ever. |
| 12:16:52 | <__monty__> | Or is that even fusion maybe that just rolls out of laziness really. |
| 12:19:43 | <yin> | in which situations would this approach be any different than plain old lazyness? |
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| 12:35:50 | <__monty__> | (as ++ (bs ++ cs)) is different from ((as ++ bs) ++ cs), that's more what returning these functional "difference" lists is about I think. |
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| 12:39:09 | <int-e> | yin: https://wiki.haskell.org/Difference_list ...this is a common pattern to avoid a potential quadratic slowdown when concatenating many lists |
| 12:40:28 | <yin> | ah i see |
| 12:41:12 | <yin> | looks like something the compiler could optimize for. are there any cases where the optimization woulnd't be desireable? |
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| 12:41:48 | <yin> | at first glance i can think of none |
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| 12:41:59 | <int-e> | You can optimize ((as ++ bs) ++ cs) to (as ++ (bs ++ cs)) but what if the as ++ bs is a recursive call? |
| 12:42:39 | <yin> | int-e: what if it is? it will be recursive in both cases |
| 12:42:40 | <int-e> | I'd expect that GHC has a rule for doing the former transformation somewhere. |
| 12:43:34 | <int-e> | If it's a recursive call then there's nothing simple the compiler can do to "fix" the associativity. |
| 12:44:29 | <int-e> | Switching to difference lists will basically fix the associativity at runtime. |
| 12:44:32 | <yin> | hmm.. is the compiler able to check for recursiveness? |
| 12:45:11 | <yin> | i won't be able to check for termination i guess... |
| 12:45:21 | <yin> | *it |
| 12:45:25 | <yin> | ok i get it |
| 12:45:33 | <int-e> | Anyway. The answer is "a compiler could do that, but it's tricky and the benefit is unclear. In any case, GHC doesn't do that." |
| 12:46:37 | <yin> | great |
| 12:46:42 | <int-e> | In contrast, rewriting ((as ++ bs) ++ cs) to (as ++ (bs ++ cs)) is easy (GHC has rewrite rules that can express this) and unequivocally an improvement. |
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| 12:47:47 | <__monty__> | But then we get to <>, is that still associative? I'm sure someone can come up with a non-associative implementation for it. |
| 12:48:49 | <int-e> | It's a Monoid (or Semigroup) law. Instances can violate it. |
| 12:49:18 | <__monty__> | (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ And this is why we can't have nice things without dependent types. |
| 12:50:17 | <int-e> | Perhaps the most natural violation is collecting data into a binary tree, with (<>) constructing a new node. |
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| 12:57:37 | <int-e> | __monty__: But this is a reason for not having a rule rewriting (a <> (b <> c)) to ((a <> b) <> c). Another reason is that in the case of a monoid you don't know which associativity is best. |
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| 12:59:02 | <yin> | <> is right associative |
| 12:59:27 | <yin> | i don't think i've ever noticed that |
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| 12:59:58 | <int-e> | that just means that you have to write (a <> b) <> c if you want to use it in a left-associative way |
| 13:00:22 | <yin> | yes, but because the default is left, i guess i assumed it would be left |
| 13:00:38 | <int-e> | the default no doubt comes from (++) |
| 13:01:21 | <int-e> | lists are kind of the canonical monoid ([a] is the free monoid generated by a) |
| 13:01:27 | <yin> | yes |
| 13:02:22 | <int-e> | > M.fromListWith (++) [((),"1"),((),"2")] |
| 13:02:23 | <lambdabot> | fromList [((),"21")] |
| 13:03:07 | <int-e> | I believe the reversal here is also due to lists being so prevalent. |
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| 13:04:26 | <int-e> | (With 3 elements that would do "3" ++ ("2" ++ "1") which is right-associative, so asymptotically better than ("1" ++ "2") ++ "3".) |
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| 13:19:03 | <yin> | computers were a mistake |
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| 13:28:53 | <int-e> | Nah, computers are great. But like many things they can be used in problematic ways. |
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| 13:57:11 | <sshine> | like knives. |
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| 14:33:37 | <yin> | i like knives |
| 14:33:45 | <yin> | i keep mine sharp |
| 14:33:50 | <yin> | i use them everyday |
| 14:34:25 | <yin> | you pick it up, you cut, you put it down |
| 14:34:46 | <Wygulmage> | I'm QuickChecking with an `Arbitrary` instance that generates arrays of tens of thousands of elements. `arbitrary` works great, but unless I define `shrink = shrinkNothing`, it generates gigabytes of smaller arrays until I exhaust memory. Is there a way to incrementally shrink? |
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| 14:37:16 | <Wygulmage> | Or to limit the maximum number of shrinks? Or should I just define a shrink that shrinks faster (e.g. halving the arrays)? |
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| 14:48:35 | ski | . o O ( (apropos mutable arrays) "QuickSort.hs" <https://paste.tomsmeding.com/dv49sfGH> ) |
| 14:49:42 | <Leary> | Wygulmage: Perhaps you can import the `GHC.Arr` internals and shrink the maximum index instead? That should allow you to share the actual array data. |
| 14:50:44 | <Leary> | (if there's a `shrink` or `slice` function in the public interface somewhere, I couldn't find it) |
| 14:52:21 | <Wygulmage> | That's a good idea; thanks. I'd have to modify some tests. (They currently make sure that the size of the array is the size of the backing array, ironically to avoid memory leaks...) |
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| 15:04:12 | <EvanR> | need a memory leak test for the memory leak test |
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| 16:55:55 | <sshine> | sounds like memory re-use is advantageous for such large arrays |
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| 17:19:56 | yin | once created a unit testing library which was tested by itself |
| 17:20:05 | <APic> | ♥ |
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| 18:25:07 | <tomsmeding> | sshine: re mutable arrays: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.13.2.0/docs/Data-Vector-Mutable.html |
| 18:25:13 | <tomsmeding> | also Data.Vector.Storable.Mutable |
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| 20:39:44 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
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| 21:30:01 | Angelz | X cant Live. |
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| 22:44:35 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-06-26.