Logs on 2025-07-02 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:04:17 | <yin> | oh no. now i'm having another problem. i get no logs from it. can this be because of buffering? |
| 01:05:15 | → | weary-traveler joins (~user@user/user363627) |
| 01:06:48 | <yin> | cabal run had no problem with this |
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| 01:08:54 | <geekosaur> | buffering might be it |
| 01:09:28 | × | leah2 quits (~leah@vuxu.org) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 01:10:23 | <geekosaur> | you might use script(1) if you want logging to file + terminal |
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| 01:15:23 | <yin> | that did it, thanks |
| 01:16:55 | <yin> | i had tried stdbuf but i guess haskell doesn't use standard C library buffering |
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| 01:17:29 | <yin> | script -qec did the trick |
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| 01:22:00 | <geekosaur> | nope, the buffering is itself written in Haskell and the RTS only uses "raw" syscalls |
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| 01:25:26 | <yin> | haskell is allergic to C and i like it |
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| 07:46:30 | <sshine> | I think it mainly has to do with leveraging laziness? |
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| 11:32:52 | <dpk> | is there any way i can see the parse tree for some input Haskell code? or something like :set +t in ghci except it prints me back what i entered with maximal parenthesization and no layout, so i see directly how it’s resolving operator precedence etc.? |
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| 11:36:58 | <geekosaur> | `:set -ddump-ds`, possibly? |
| 11:37:54 | <geekosaur> | well, that wouldn't be what you entered, the desugarer does things like rewriting `do` to `>>`/`>>=` and `if` to `case` |
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| 11:40:05 | <dpk> | oh wow, that produces a lot of output. however, i think i can actually see what i want to know. thanks! |
| 11:40:13 | <geekosaur> | `-ddump-parsed` or `-ddump-parsed-ast`, not sure which has precedence/associativity applied |
| 11:40:36 | <geekosaur> | but it won't look like your code |
| 11:41:52 | <geekosaur> | operator precedence is a bit hacky, since `infix*` directives can appear anywhere in a module the AST has to be adjusted after the initial parse |
| 11:43:00 | <dpk> | -ddump-parsed does not help, -ddump-parsed-ast is harder to read than -ddump-ds … now i know that -ddump-something is what i’m looking for, i can take a look myself, and in the worst case, -ddump-ds is at least sufficiently comprehensible even if not ideal. thanks so much! |
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| 14:17:45 | <EvanR> | yeah the rawest parse will not have the operator precedence "resolved" yet |
| 14:19:10 | <EvanR> | worst case resort would be to load the module in ghci and use :i to get the precedence of the operators then you know how it will be resolved |
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| 21:13:36 | <r-sta> | yo what is Up #haskell ? |
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| 23:01:01 | <r-sta> | ok i have a question |
| 23:01:26 | <r-sta> | so my prof was explaining to me how a graphically turing complete language works |
| 23:01:46 | <r-sta> | but i was wondering if it has to be graphically complete in the sense of a graph or just a list |
| 23:02:06 | <r-sta> | like, if the graph leafs have pointers to elsewhere in the graph, isnt that just the same as if it were a list? |
| 23:03:08 | <r-sta> | like, cant you just have a list where the values can be either `a' or `Cursor [] a' |
| 23:03:24 | <EvanR> | there are variations on defining a turing machine, then there's many ways to implement them which will be equivalent |
| 23:03:36 | <r-sta> | hmm? |
| 23:03:44 | <EvanR> | what's your turing machine |
| 23:03:49 | <r-sta> | no, i mean like, isnt it the same to have the list instead of the graph? |
| 23:04:02 | <r-sta> | EvanR, its not turing complete, its grphically turing complete |
| 23:04:16 | <EvanR> | graphically turing complete |
| 23:04:17 | <r-sta> | my question is if it needs the graph or if the list is the same |
| 23:04:28 | <r-sta> | like, if I dont understand the difference |
| 23:04:43 | <EvanR> | any finite graph can be described by an adjacency list |
| 23:05:05 | <r-sta> | i think thats the point where i get confused. like if you can just "linearze" the graph somehow |
| 23:05:27 | <EvanR> | sure |
| 23:05:42 | <EvanR> | you number the nodes in the graph and use that in the list |
| 23:05:48 | <r-sta> | but then, im not sure if thats the same definition as just regular turing complete, not graphically turing complete |
| 23:06:20 | <EvanR> | well what's graphically turing complete |
| 23:06:29 | <r-sta> | EvanR: i dont think it needs the adjacency matrix at type level, it just has Either values or itself at different positions |
| 23:07:01 | → | potatoe joins (~potatoe@157-131-120-242.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 23:07:04 | <r-sta> | iiuc the adjacency data is equivalent to the structure directing index in the deconstructed version |
| 23:07:25 | <r-sta> | like, pattern matching on the subsequent constructors |
| 23:07:47 | <r-sta> | with (Int,Int) for the tree branch depth and hight |
| 23:08:24 | <r-sta> | [(Int,Int),a)] instead of whatever the type would be with the adjacency matrix at type level |
| 23:08:38 | <r-sta> | (iirc if you exponentiate it it checks for cycles) |
| 23:08:50 | <r-sta> | (so you get the graph cuts) |
| 23:08:53 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:09:02 | <EvanR> | so what are you asking |
| 23:09:28 | <r-sta> | basically i think it means by this graphically turing complete thing that the list is just the same as the graph |
| 23:09:52 | <r-sta> | so i just have like, Graph a = Zipper (Either a (Graph a)) |
| 23:10:20 | <EvanR> | zipper is equivalent to a list |
| 23:10:34 | <r-sta> | and it ends up looking weird because there are no branches but the comonadic convolution cursor somehow captures this |
| 23:10:55 | <EvanR> | times the cursor |
| 23:11:00 | <r-sta> | EvanR: sure, but now its also weirdly equivalent to a graph somehow |
| 23:11:28 | <EvanR> | a list newtype which can contain itself |
| 23:11:31 | <r-sta> | seems like a kind of turing tape version of the graphical turing completeness |
| 23:11:39 | <EvanR> | might even be a graph at runtime |
| 23:12:03 | <EvanR> | if the knots are tied |
| 23:12:21 | <r-sta> | like, normally it would be like Graph a = Tree (Either a (Graph a)) where Tree a = Either a [Tree a] |
| 23:12:31 | <r-sta> | and you can see the branches |
| 23:12:36 | <r-sta> | they just sort of collapse!? |
| 23:13:02 | <r-sta> | idk if there is like a monad agnosticism theorem or something at the heart of it |
| 23:13:03 | <EvanR> | to show two types are isomorphic just write the from and to functions |
| 23:13:10 | <EvanR> | and show they compose into get id |
| 23:13:39 | <r-sta> | derp, sorry, that definition should have a bunch of zippers sorry |
| 23:14:00 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 23:14:07 | <r-sta> | one for the list of branches, and then, like, one for the depth zipping vertically down the tree |
| 23:14:29 | × | ft quits (~ft@p4fc2a518.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 23:14:36 | <r-sta> | so at the leafs its either a value or the "graph pointer" (this horizontal and vertical zipper) |
| 23:15:02 | <r-sta> | i guess they are not strictly isomorphic since in the lists only version its like... you cant point to a branch point? |
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| 23:16:15 | <r-sta> | there is a version of a deconstructed geti zipper where you have GraphZipper a = ([((Int,Int),a)],(Graph a)) |
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| 23:16:35 | <r-sta> | i guess that might be equivalent, because then you only ever point to the leaf values |
| 23:17:11 | <r-sta> | it just seems weird how the (Int,Int) and the Int seem equivalent |
| 23:17:23 | <r-sta> | like, in a list i only need to say where the value is in the list with an Int |
| 23:17:38 | → | ljdarj1 joins (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) |
| 23:17:56 | <r-sta> | hmm... i suppose with the GraphZipper above, i would only need some Int number of forward deconstruction opperations |
| 23:18:04 | × | malte quits (~malte@mal.tc) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:18:37 | <r-sta> | its just weird how its the same if there is [a] in the backward part of the zipper, or [((Int,Int),a)] for the data retained if its a graph |
| 23:18:42 | <r-sta> | i dont get how thats redundant |
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| 23:19:14 | <r-sta> | like, maybe the runtime representation is less effecient somehow |
| 23:19:48 | <r-sta> | it would have to do more zipper opperations since it cant zipper through one of the upper branches and save itself some thunks |
| 23:20:27 | → | malte joins (~malte@mal.tc) |
| 23:20:30 | <r-sta> | i always wonder if that internal representation is used in the compiler somehow since the programs form a graph monad |
| 23:20:55 | <r-sta> | like, is that saving being done under the hood somehow |
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| 23:21:05 | ljdarj1 | is now known as ljdarj |
| 23:21:09 | <r-sta> | using dereferencing and variable binding in some super awesome way |
| 23:21:15 | × | malte quits (~malte@mal.tc) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:21:57 | <r-sta> | ( i was always trying to express the top level program monad as a fancy datatype but getting messed up with singletons ) |
| 23:22:41 | <r-sta> | ( like, that the program would automatically factor into an overall datatype which could then be algorithmically refactored ) |
| 23:23:33 | <r-sta> | yeah, i guess refactoring would be faster on the graph version because of that point about thunks above |
| 23:23:34 | <potatoe> | sorry, I'm kind of new, and I'm trying to understand 'let', so I read that it lets us create "local" expressions, but how does that really work? as in, lets say I have this: take 5 $ 0:z in z, is there another way to write this without the 'in'? |
| 23:23:36 | <r-sta> | i think i get it |
| 23:23:49 | <r-sta> | cheers! |
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| 23:24:01 | EvanR | blinks |
| 23:24:02 | → | malte joins (~malte@mal.tc) |
| 23:24:23 | <ski> | potatoe : there is no `let' there |
| 23:24:39 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:24:52 | <potatoe> | oops sorry, take 5 $ let z = 0:z in z |
| 23:25:16 | <EvanR> | for this to work, haskell has to use lazy evaluation |
| 23:25:21 | <ski> | you could say `take 5 (fix (0 :))' |
| 23:25:33 | <ski> | fix f = x |
| 23:25:36 | <ski> | where |
| 23:25:37 | <potatoe> | I ended up trying to understand fix first but then realized I didn't properly understand 'let' |
| 23:25:39 | <ski> | x = f x |
| 23:25:46 | <EvanR> | the infinite list z doesn't get fully constructed before evaluating the next step |
| 23:25:55 | <potatoe> | I mean, I was trying to understand fix* and ended up with this question |
| 23:26:22 | <EvanR> | semantically you can think of z as 0:0:0:0:... an infinite number of zeros |
| 23:26:23 | <ski> | `let' in your case builds a cyclic list, whose tail points back to the same cons cell |
| 23:26:27 | <EvanR> | then you can just take 5 of them |
| 23:27:12 | <ski> | it's also possible to define `fix' non-recursively, using self-application |
| 23:28:03 | <ski> | pretty sure that would not give a cyclic list here, though, rather expanding to new cons cells, as many as you need |
| 23:28:17 | <potatoe> | right, so if the expression is take 5 $ ... in z, can I think of it as take 5 from z? |
| 23:28:24 | <potatoe> | or is that not the right way to think about it |
| 23:28:30 | <potatoe> | for the let in z pattern? |
| 23:29:28 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:29:48 | <EvanR> | the value of let x = y in z is the value of z evaluated with x defined as y in its environment |
| 23:29:53 | <EvanR> | so yes |
| 23:30:03 | <ski> | yes, `take 5 (let ... in z)' is the same as `let ... in take 5 z' |
| 23:30:04 | <EvanR> | outside this expression there's no x |
| 23:30:21 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:30:23 | <potatoe> | excellent, thank you |
| 23:30:36 | <potatoe> | now im going to try to understand fix, so im going to hang out in here |
| 23:30:37 | <EvanR> | consider the evaluation rules for each kind of expression |
| 23:30:42 | <EvanR> | there's not that many |
| 23:31:16 | <EvanR> | then they can be combined in infinite ways |
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| 23:42:27 | <potatoe> | EvanR: "value of let x = y in z is the value of z evaluated with x defined as y in its environment" is really helpful, which I suppose also explains why if I do let f = (\x -> 0:x) f in f it wont be lazy but rather force evaluation of the infinite list |
| 23:43:35 | <EvanR> | that doesn't look well typed |
| 23:43:43 | <EvanR> | which is a problem prior to what it means |
| 23:43:50 | <EvanR> | maybe |
| 23:44:27 | <EvanR> | wait |
| 23:44:34 | <potatoe> | hmm, why do you say so? it works in ghci (which of course does not mean its correct I just want to learn mroe) |
| 23:44:41 | <EvanR> | you're right. But no, it's also lazy |
| 23:44:48 | <EvanR> | you can test it like this |
| 23:45:48 | <c_wraith> | You need to be a bit more precise than "lazy" in this case. |
| 23:45:56 | <EvanR> | well just take 5 from that |
| 23:46:07 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:46:26 | <potatoe> | yep, let f = ... f in take 5 f does take only 5 |
| 23:46:35 | <c_wraith> | that's kind of uninteresting, though |
| 23:46:47 | <EvanR> | so... the infinite list didn't get fully constructed (freeze up) |
| 23:46:53 | <c_wraith> | actually it does |
| 23:46:55 | <potatoe> | c_wraith: what do you mean by you need to be more precise? |
| 23:47:12 | <c_wraith> | See, the thing about that construction is that it literally creates a circular linked list |
| 23:47:20 | <EvanR> | implementation detail |
| 23:47:32 | <c_wraith> | This whole thing is about implementation details |
| 23:47:47 | <EvanR> | it's not clear what potatoe is interested in, so I guess that's where more precise comes in |
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| 23:49:00 | <potatoe> | well I suppose I'm not really communicating well here but I guess what I was saying is, I understand that what I asked for was an infinite evaluation, and it doesnt mean that its not "lazy" |
| 23:49:02 | <c_wraith> | An expression is neither lazy nor non-lazy. It may be evaluated or unevaluated, but "lazy" is a property of functions. |
| 23:49:18 | <EvanR> | I don't think you asked for an infinite evaluation |
| 23:49:32 | <EvanR> | trying to print out the whole infinite list I guess does |
| 23:49:47 | <EvanR> | which is what's ultimately driving the lazy evaluation |
| 23:50:46 | <c_wraith> | I suppose it's more accurate to say "lazy" is a property which means that an expression be evaluated or not. |
| 23:51:05 | <c_wraith> | Which is different from whether a particular expression *has* been evaluated |
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| 23:51:23 | <EvanR> | evaluated and how much |
| 23:51:25 | <c_wraith> | err. means that an expression *can be* evaluated or not |
| 23:51:28 | <EvanR> | fully, partially |
| 23:51:35 | <c_wraith> | eh. nested laziness. |
| 23:51:42 | <c_wraith> | That's not separate. :) |
| 23:51:49 | <EvanR> | often we use "evaluated" to mean WHNF |
| 23:52:17 | <c_wraith> | indeed. that's what the most primitive use of case does. |
| 23:52:19 | <EvanR> | which might leaves lazy stuff unevaluated! |
| 23:52:21 | <potatoe> | right, I mean, by typing that into ghci I asked it to print it out, hence evaluate |
| 23:53:10 | <EvanR> | compare and constrast, (let z = 0:z in z) `seq` "cool" |
| 23:53:32 | <EvanR> | which won't print it out |
| 23:55:52 | <c_wraith> | but it's worth pointing out that there are two possible definitions of fix |
| 23:56:18 | <c_wraith> | fix f = f (fix f) or fix f = let x = f x in x |
| 23:56:35 | <c_wraith> | they have the same denotation |
| 23:56:51 | <c_wraith> | But in GHC they have different operational behavior |
| 23:56:57 | <c_wraith> | and that's why one is chosen over the other |
| 23:57:44 | <c_wraith> | the key difference is operational, so it depends on implementation details |
| 23:58:19 | <c_wraith> | And the important detail is that a let expression shares the same thunk between uses |
| 23:58:50 | <c_wraith> | uses of the bound variable, that is |
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