Logs on 2025-07-03 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:01:06 | <ski> | @let newtype Santa a = MkSanta {runSanta :: Santa a -> a} |
| 00:01:07 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 00:01:15 | <ski> | > let fix f = g `runSanta` g where g = MkSanta (\g -> f (g `runSanta` g)) in take 4 (fix (0 :)) |
| 00:01:17 | <lambdabot> | [0,0,0,0] |
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| 00:02:16 | <c_wraith> | So when the value recursion in x happens, it refers to the previously-allocated thunk instead of evaluating f again |
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| 00:03:26 | <c_wraith> | So like (fix (0:)) creates a (:) node that points to itself, instead of pointing to a new (fix (0:)) expression |
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| 00:05:11 | <c_wraith> | and yes, this is complicated. Best to sit down and draw some pictures. GHC uses graph reduction as its evaluation mechanism. Drawing pictures actually gives you a decent idea how it works. |
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| 01:54:00 | <monochrom> | A good test of laziness in lists is `take 1` for example. |
| 01:56:57 | <c_wraith> | if the list has a length > 1 |
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| 02:08:09 | <probie> | > take 1 (42 : reverse [1..]) -- seems lazy to me |
| 02:08:10 | <lambdabot> | [42] |
| 02:08:36 | <monochrom> | It is lazy to me. |
| 02:09:41 | <EvanR> | laziness. You know it when you see it |
| 02:12:49 | <probie> | > let lazyishReverse xs = [ys !! n | let ys = reverse xs, n <- zipWith const [0..] xs] in (lazyishReverse [1..5], length (take 42 (lazyishReverse [1..]))) |
| 02:12:50 | <lambdabot> | ([5,4,3,2,1],42) |
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| 03:01:23 | <c_wraith> | now... find a way to do that that isn't O(n^2) |
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| 03:57:17 | <probie> | > let lazyishLinearReverse xs = go xs (reverse xs) where { go [] _ = []; go (_:ys) ~(z:zs) = z: go ys zs } in (lazyishLinearReverse [1..5], length (take 42 (lazyishLinearReverse [0..]))) |
| 03:57:18 | <lambdabot> | ([5,4,3,2,1],42) |
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| 04:00:37 | <c_wraith> | nice |
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| 07:25:00 | <[exa]> | is there some good clean way to make an applicative optparser that can guess something like "file format" from suffix of an option or take a hint, and fail still in the parsing phase if it decides that the file format is not known? |
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| 07:26:22 | <[exa]> | e.g. as with pandoc: `-o something.md` knows I want markdown, `-o something -t markdown` knows the format to be markdown because I told it so, but just `-o something` should die |
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| 07:49:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Axman6> /me another day, another failed attempt to understand python package management and feeling like topping oneself would be an easier option |
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| 07:56:19 | <[exa]> | Axman6: just don't |
| 07:57:43 | <[exa]> | the ecosystem is so dragged into all directions (and legacy) and so shaped to just somehow survive everything that has been thrown at it that there's nothing to really understand, just tech debt |
| 07:58:54 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: that sounds like wanting to do control flow in the applicative based on values inside |
| 07:59:01 | <tomsmeding> | i.e. the thing that you can't do in an applicative but can do in a monad |
| 07:59:08 | <kuribas> | Axman6: Did you try "uv"? |
| 07:59:15 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: yeah trying to dodge precisely that |
| 07:59:46 | <tomsmeding> | at some point there's a primitive parser on strings that can do anything, if you could hook in there it could work |
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| 08:00:09 | <kuribas> | I didn't follow the whole discussion, but I often find an applicative wrapped in a monad handy... |
| 08:00:55 | <[exa]> | currently I found I can do `option (eitherReader guessSuffix)` and fall back to it from `MyVal <$> option fmt (long "format") <*> strOption (long "input")` |
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| 08:30:52 | <[exa]> | ok looks like it either doesn't backtrack or failover properly |
| 08:32:48 | <[exa]> | of I do (schematically): `(MyVal <$> optionA <*> optionB) <|> optionA_that_guesses_whole_MyVal` and only supply option A, it complains that it's missing option B |
| 08:33:20 | <[exa]> | and if I flip the alternatives, it generally ignores the optionB and uses it only if there |
| 08:33:22 | <[exa]> | there |
| 08:33:33 | <[exa]> | (whoops my keyboard is acting funny) |
| 08:34:05 | <[exa]> | ...only if the guessy optionA fails to guess |
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| 08:39:26 | <__monty__> | [exa]: Problem is that the left parser doesn't backtrack, so there's no recovery. Wrapping the left side in `try` should work. |
| 08:40:03 | <[exa]> | there's try? |
| 08:40:38 | <[exa]> | maybe I fail at finding stuff |
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| 08:41:03 | <__monty__> | @hoogle try |
| 08:41:03 | <[exa]> | I think there's none |
| 08:41:03 | <lambdabot> | Control.Exception try :: Exception e => IO a -> IO (Either e a) |
| 08:41:03 | <lambdabot> | Control.Exception.Base try :: Exception e => IO a -> IO (Either e a) |
| 08:41:03 | <lambdabot> | System.Directory.Internal.Prelude try :: Exception e => IO a -> IO (Either e a) |
| 08:41:11 | <__monty__> | Well, it's none of those. |
| 08:41:24 | <[exa]> | anyway the issue is that the left parser actually fails, but it doesn't even try the option after <|> |
| 08:42:33 | <__monty__> | The Megaparsec docs explain, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.3.0/docs/Text-Megaparsec.html#v:try |
| 08:43:11 | <__monty__> | The left parser doesn't fail to consume any input whatsoever, so the alternative can never be tried. |
| 08:43:19 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: this is optparse-applicative |
| 08:43:56 | <tomsmeding> | in a monadic parser this whole issue doesn't arise :) |
| 08:45:18 | <__monty__> | Oh, apologies for the confusion then. |
| 08:45:21 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: this has prefBacktrack though https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/optparse-applicative-0.19.0.0/docs/Options-Applicative.html#t:ParserPrefs |
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| 08:46:01 | tomsmeding | wonders why docs are suddenly served from 'hackage-content' instead of 'hackage' |
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| 09:02:19 | <tomsmeding> | there's no functionality in HLS to automatically case-split on a variable, right? |
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| 09:08:00 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: that prefBacktrack is only for subparsers (which generally are hidden behind a "command"-style argument) |
| 09:08:07 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
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| 09:24:50 | <[exa]> | yeah looks like there's no way to do that, I thought that the option "readers" would fail on the applicative&alternative level but they're hard failures actually |
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| 15:10:06 | <[exa]> | btw re that applicative issue from above, found that optparse supports ParserM, oneM and fromM which one can use to stick in a monad (with limited access to stuff) |
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| 15:18:34 | <__monty__> | What's the issue that doesn't arise in a monadic parser actually? Because I often end up needing to resort to `try`. |
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| 15:41:25 | <[exa]> | __monty__: you can produce a value-dependent error manually, though indirectly |
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| 15:44:56 | <[exa]> | __monty__: alpha-quality half-abstracted attempt here: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/hTg5htdS |
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| 18:51:10 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: the issue that doesn't arise is that you cannot resort to try |
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| 18:51:45 | <tomsmeding> | in an applicative computation `f a`, the "context" part of the computation (the structure in `f`) cannot depend on the values inside (the `a`) |
| 18:52:09 | <tomsmeding> | [exa] wanted to take a different parser path / throw errors depending on a particular value parsed in an argument |
| 18:52:24 | <tomsmeding> | in a monadic parser you can just do this, completely naturally |
| 18:52:30 | <tomsmeding> | in an applicative parser you're suddenly in a snag |
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| 19:32:36 | <r-sta> | do we have time for a discussion? |
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| 19:34:26 | <r-sta> | quite enjoying sound synthesis tunes if everyone is afk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDdWjRwMU2k |
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| 20:18:53 | <__monty__> | tomsmeding: But you can still use `try` in the specific case where you can go from more to less specific, no? |
| 20:20:15 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: in an applicative-only context, you fundamentally cannot change applicative-level control flow based on values inside |
| 20:20:42 | <__monty__> | But alternative isn't quite applicative, is it? |
| 20:20:51 | <tomsmeding> | the only "feedback" you have from the value level into the applicative level is from primitive operations |
| 20:21:30 | <tomsmeding> | if you have a primitive that e.g. parses a unit of text and produces some kind of success/failure result in the applicative, then you can do things like Alternative to it to get control flow |
| 20:21:57 | <__monty__> | The original question was about alternative, no? |
| 20:22:06 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]'s problem with optparse-applicative was that they wanted to change what flags were accepted (I think) based on the value of an option argument |
| 20:22:35 | <tomsmeding> | since optparse-applicative only gives you primitive parsers that parse full arguments, regardless of what text is in them, what they wanted was impossible |
| 20:22:50 | <tomsmeding> | (though it turned out that there was some monadic loophole (fromM?)) |
| 20:23:00 | <tomsmeding> | alternative does not change what I just said |
| 20:23:08 | <tomsmeding> | alternative branches based on information at the applicative level |
| 20:23:13 | <tomsmeding> | you first need to get the information to that level |
| 20:23:27 | <tomsmeding> | with a Monad, (>>=) does this for you trivially |
| 20:23:50 | <tomsmeding> | with an Applicative, neither pure nor (<*>) does this for you, so it will have to be by primitive operations in the particular applicative that you're using |
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| 20:24:25 | <tomsmeding> | my argument does not conclude that you can't do this in _any_ applicative, but that _just_ Applicative and Alternative is not enough |
| 20:27:39 | <tomsmeding> | this reasoning reminds me of something in this channel a few weeks back: someone asked how to get an SqlExpr (Value (Maybe a)) from an SqlExpr (Value a) in esqueleto |
| 20:28:29 | <tomsmeding> | and they were asking how to contort 'fmap' to do this |
| 20:28:55 | <tomsmeding> | despite not having ever looked at the esqueleto docs, seeing "SqlExpr" (and some other hints that they dropped, iirc) made me realise that this is probably an embedded DSL, meaning that fmap is not going to do anything helpful, so it would have to be some kind of primitive combinator |
| 20:29:04 | <tomsmeding> | and indeed there was a function called 'just' right there |
| 20:29:39 | <tomsmeding> | this is not to brag or anything, just me realising that reasoning about expressive power of typeclasses is useful :) |
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| 21:13:11 | <ii8> | Hello, how do I tell stack to set some options when calling c2hs, specifically --cppopts. glib is a dependency of the package I'm trying to build and it doesn't work because _Noreturn isn't recognised by c2hs and I'd like to workaround it by setting -D_Noreturn= |
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| 21:14:40 | <ii8> | It's the same error as this: https://github.com/gtk2hs/gtk2hs/issues/262 |
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| 21:39:05 | <ii8> | It's the same error as this: https://github.com/gtk2hs/gtk2hs/issues/262 |
| 21:39:09 | <ii8> | whoops sry |
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| 21:51:26 | <geekosaur> | docker upgrade |
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| 23:42:56 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:44:50 | → | j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
| 23:45:11 | → | trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 23:48:06 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:51:22 | → | j1n37 joins (~j1n37@user/j1n37) |
| 23:54:07 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:54:09 | × | gorignak quits (~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Quit: quit) |
| 23:54:25 | → | gorignak joins (~gorignak@user/gorignak) |
| 23:55:50 | × | j1n37 quits (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:58:48 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-07-03.