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| 01:17:46 | <JayKobe6k> | Hello everyone. Is there a name for a traverse type that constrains the kind of the f result to Monad instead of just Applicative? |
| 01:19:52 | <EvanR> | traverse specialized to Monad will not work for you? |
| 01:20:04 | <EvanR> | since any Monad is an applicative |
| 01:21:15 | <JayKobe6k> | No, because in order to define a traverse instance it has to work for all applicative |
| 01:21:49 | <JayKobe6k> | I have a scenario where I have a structure that has (what I think is) a valid traverse instance, but only when you have a Monad |
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| 01:25:40 | <Axman6> | Want to share the code? |
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| 01:27:03 | <Axman6> | traverse doesn't need anything Monad offers, so I'd be surprised if it can't be written using just Applicative |
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| 01:30:31 | <JayKobe6k> | Give me a minute to convert it in to haskell.. I'm working in scala (technical constraints... what I'm making has to run on the jvm) |
| 01:30:58 | <geekosaur> | something to consider is that before `traverse` there was `mapM` |
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| 01:32:12 | <JayKobe6k> | I'm trying to write a scripting language using recursion schemes and need to model while loops and conditionals. And to do so the traversal needs to behave differently depending on the result of a predicate expression, which to me implies that it needs monad |
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| 01:43:37 | <JayKobe6k> | https://gist.github.com/Jacoby6000/c9b6dedd7043933e5b5ca1199857b61b There's also an issue where I need to somehow get to a bool from the `a` on the predicates. I was planning on doing some dirty java code to work around that. |
| 01:44:39 | <JayKobe6k> | This is very much a work in progress. Little things are still being worked on, like invocations will be modeled as App a a eventually. Just slowly working up to that. My current hand-rolled interpreter wouldn't support it |
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| 01:47:24 | <JayKobe6k> | Lines 26 and 27 are the ones in question in that gist |
| 01:47:41 | <JayKobe6k> | With a monad I can use ifM and whileM |
| 01:48:09 | <JayKobe6k> | Kind of thinking I'll just have to write my own specialized recursion stuff for this |
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| 01:53:02 | <JayKobe6k> | I think I need selective functors https://simonmar.github.io/slides/Selective%20Applicative%20Functors%20%28Copenhagen%20April%202019%29.pdf |
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| 01:54:43 | <geekosaur> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/selective |
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| 02:18:08 | <Leary> | JayKobe6k: Whether you're using `Applicative`, `Selective` or `Monad`, that's not going to work out---you need to `f` /all/ of your `a`s equally or you won't have the `b`s to rebuild the data. Your language's control logic really shouldn't have any bearing on the `Traversable` instance anyway, put that in a fold or `hylo` or whatever. |
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| 02:20:45 | <JayKobe6k> | How would I write that in to a fold? I'm not super familiar with the unfold side of things, but afaiu there's no way to do conditional branching in a fold because the subtrees are all evaluated by the time I get to choose which branch I want |
| 02:21:58 | <Leary> | I assume scala supports some form of opt-in laziness. |
| 02:22:11 | <JayKobe6k> | Ah I see |
| 02:22:11 | <Leary> | Like using `() -> a` instead of `a`. |
| 02:23:02 | <JayKobe6k> | The typeclass lib I'm using provides an Eval a to model laziness in a nice way. I'll probably use that. Thanks for the recommendation! |
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| 10:08:46 | → | senoraraton joins (~senorarat@4.sub-75-238-52.myvzw.com) |
| 10:09:12 | <senoraraton> | If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, but doesn't compose — it's not a real monad. |
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| 10:17:33 | <__monty__> | Aren't monads a bit notorious for not composing? Hence transformers and entire effect systems? |
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| 10:42:56 | <[exa]> | __monty__: I guess there's difference between composing with other types vs composing with themselves |
| 10:43:28 | <[exa]> | like getting "compose int->int with string->string" and going "aaaaa functions don't compose" :D |
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| 10:53:26 | <__monty__> | Fair enough, though I haven't seen >>= called "monad composition." |
| 10:54:42 | <[exa]> | >=> ? |
| 10:55:08 | <[exa]> | anyway yeah this nomenclature for composition there is shaky |
| 10:56:24 | <[exa]> | hey btw I stumbled upon this recently, looks like a pretty good way to do websites (kinda refreshing after all these post-jekyll static site deployers): https://www.forester-notes.org/index/index.xml |
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| 10:57:15 | <[exa]> | kinda wondering if there would be a simpler one for haskell, with pandoc and stuff...so that I could tear out that weird markup they're using :D |
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| 10:59:53 | <Leary> | [exa]: That's quite a direct analogy there; a monad M on a category C corresponds to G . F for some adjunction F : C <-> D : G, and adjunctions /do/ compose like functions, giving rise to composition of monads. But a `C <-> D` wants to compose with a `D <-> _`, not another `C <-> _`---trying to compose monads on Hask is a "type error", unless the first is also /to/ Hask. |
| 11:01:23 | <[exa]> | oh cool |
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| 11:04:16 | <__monty__> | You lost me at "adjunction." o.o |
| 11:06:23 | <__monty__> | Forester looks similar to some Zettelkasten utilities I've seen. Not dissimilar to a Wiki with disciplined reference use. |
| 11:07:55 | <dutchie> | you can compose monads with distributive laws too: https://inv.alid.pw/posts/kleisli-lifting-distributive/ |
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| 11:14:32 | <[exa]> | __monty__: it got me at the "graphy" views of stuff, certainly in a nice sweet spot between plain old wiki and wikidata or so |
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| 14:23:48 | <probie> | Is there a way to do something like `data L = L1 | L2` and `data Foo (xs :: [L]) where { T1 :: (In L1 xs) => Foo xs; T2 :: (In L2 xs) => Foo xs } in a way that GHC can make reasonable sense of it? |
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| 14:28:25 | <Leary> | probie: What issue does GHC have with that? It looks fine to me. |
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| 14:29:49 | <probie> | If I pattern match on a `Foo '[L1]` it doesn't know that `T2` isn't a possible constructor |
| 14:34:32 | <ski> | OWA ? |
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| 14:38:14 | <tomsmeding> | probie: works for me https://play.haskell.org/saved/ogiXl7OC |
| 14:38:23 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps you've defined 'In' differently? |
| 14:40:05 | <Leary> | Yeah, I also just got done writing this, which works too: https://play.haskell.org/saved/Ytw9qxKB |
| 14:40:17 | <tomsmeding> | (also, ski: outlook web access?) |
| 14:40:40 | tomsmeding | suspects that probie expressed 'In' using a type class |
| 14:41:44 | <ski> | (Open-World Assumption) |
| 14:41:51 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
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| 14:42:32 | <tomsmeding> | the space of three-letter acrynoms is crowded :) |
| 14:42:39 | <tomsmeding> | *acronyms |
| 14:42:46 | <tomsmeding> | not sure what an acrynom would be |
| 14:43:16 | <Leary> | Eating while crying. :) |
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| 14:43:23 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
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| 15:17:55 | <probie> | tomsmeding: I'm out of practice doing fun things with types, so defaulted to what I would have done 15 years ago |
| 15:19:33 | <tomsmeding> | probie: type classes here have the downside that they're "open world": more instances could be added later, and the compiler wants to ensure that your code doesn't break when that happens |
| 15:19:37 | <tomsmeding> | hence it's very conservative |
| 15:20:09 | <tomsmeding> | Leary and I wrote a _closed_ type family (as opposed to an "open type family", which also exists); a closed type family is, naturally, closed-world, hence GHC does not have to be conservative |
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| 15:42:28 | <ski> | (in the logic/relational programming, and knowledge representation world, "OWA" and "CWA" (Closed-World Assumption), are rather common terms) |
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| 16:52:10 | <yabobay> | what's the best module for just getting the contents of a web page? i'm extremely unlikely to want to do anything more complicated or powerful |
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| 16:55:12 | <EvanR> | there's a library called req on hackage which uses http-client |
| 16:55:51 | <EvanR> | https://github.com/mrkkrp/req might be worth a shot |
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| 17:07:44 | <drlkf> | hi, is it possible to request hackage endorsements in here? |
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| 17:15:38 | <tomsmeding> | drlkf: if you know any haskellers personally, trying via them might be most effective |
| 17:16:59 | <tomsmeding> | oh it seems you can still go via trustees too, giving just name and package |
| 17:17:06 | <tomsmeding> | that's a low verification bar |
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| 17:17:49 | <tomsmeding> | drlkf: please link the package you intend to upload |
| 17:17:59 | tomsmeding | is looking at the red box on https://hackage.haskell.org/users/register-request |
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| 17:18:16 | <tomsmeding> | also hackage username |
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| 18:03:57 | <monochrom> | Hot take: "acrynom" is Latin for "acronym" >:) |
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| 18:11:56 | <yabobay> | EvanR: i can't seem to be able to install splitmix which is a dependency of req |
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| 18:12:13 | <yabobay> | it complains that 'getentropy' is undefined in C code which is weird |
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| 18:15:09 | <drlkf> | tomsmeding: here is a small package i want to upload: https://github.com/drlkf/megaparsec-utils/ ; i also have a pending maintainer handoff here https://github.com/jgoerzen/configfile/issues/13, my hackage username is drlkf https://hackage.haskell.org/user/drlkf |
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| 18:26:21 | <EvanR> | yabobay, this is unfortunate |
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| 18:29:04 | <monochrom> | getentropy should be available as part of glibc on Linux. You may need to say more about your platform. |
| 18:29:28 | <monochrom> | I think the man page says OpenBSD too. |
| 18:30:30 | <monochrom> | Unfortunately cbits-unix/init.c insists on getentropy and doesn't have any alternative for any other Unix. |
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| 18:31:40 | <EvanR> | maybe this is why I haven't heard of anyone using req, it's openbsd only |
| 18:32:23 | <monochrom> | Naw I had no trouble building splitmix on Ubuntu. |
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| 18:34:19 | <tomsmeding> | even more, ghc itself barely supports anything other than linux and bsd |
| 18:34:27 | <tomsmeding> | (in the unix landscape) |
| 18:34:52 | <tomsmeding> | so yes, need more platform info |
| 18:35:38 | <monochrom> | I can believe maybe musl doesn't have it. (Too lazy to check.) |
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| 18:38:07 | <tomsmeding> | I get results for getentropy in musl |
| 18:38:20 | <monochrom> | Nice. |
| 18:39:25 | <tomsmeding> | drlkf: thanks for the links! Feel free to send me a hackage endorsement link in a private message |
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| 20:37:01 | ski | . o O ( "anagram" is an anagram of "anagram" ) |
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| 20:40:37 | <darkling> | .oO( An anagram of "banach-tarski" is "banach-tarski banach-tarski" ) ;) |
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| 21:00:18 | <EvanR> | lol. |
| 21:00:53 | <mauke> | to the tune of "Barbra Streisand" |
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| 21:02:27 | <ski> | @quote tarski |
| 21:02:27 | <lambdabot> | cmccann says: fun fact: "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram for "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski" |
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| 21:22:12 | <yabobay> | EvanR: i don't know if the message sent earlier, cause i've been having some internet outages, but i said i did get req to install just fine on debian but not on termux and i don't know what libc that uses |
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| 21:25:21 | <mauke> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bionic_(software) ? |
| 21:28:01 | <mauke> | but then https://android.googlesource.com/platform/bionic/+/2b67d7dee09852789d9ac7d8972ed6cdb2c18430%5E%21/ |
| 21:29:13 | <yabobay> | yeah so that's probably not it |
| 21:29:32 | <yabobay> | so would the solution just kinda be submitting a patch to whatever bit of C code uses that function upstream? |
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| 21:37:15 | → | dtman34 joins (~dtman34@c-73-242-68-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 21:38:19 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 21:42:21 | × | dtman34 quits (~dtman34@c-73-242-68-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 21:43:07 | → | dtman34 joins (~dtman34@2601:447:d182:6512:c2f9:c3a:b83d:6490) |
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| 21:55:43 | × | Nosrep quits (~jimothy@user/nosrep) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 22:04:39 | → | Sgeo joins (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) |
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| 22:20:54 | × | caubert quits (~caubert@user/caubert) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 22:26:19 | × | trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-92-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 22:28:01 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 22:28:22 | × | dtman34 quits (~dtman34@2601:447:d182:6512:c2f9:c3a:b83d:6490) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 22:29:42 | → | trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-92-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 22:33:33 | → | caubert joins (~caubert@user/caubert) |
| 22:35:43 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
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| 22:44:14 | × | peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:44:28 | × | humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Quit: Leaving...) |
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| 22:59:41 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
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| 23:02:12 | × | sprotte24 quits (~sprotte24@p200300d16f270a00f99ee53ecfe7291a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
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| 23:15:24 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 23:15:29 | × | FANTOM quits (~fantom@33be818f.skybroadband.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 23:17:39 | × | dtman34 quits (~dtman34@2601:447:d182:6512:c2f9:c3a:b83d:6490) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 23:18:17 | → | dtman34 joins (~dtman34@2601:447:d182:6512:c2f9:c3a:b83d:6490) |
| 23:20:18 | × | gorignak quits (~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Quit: quit) |
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| 23:26:24 | × | CiaoSen quits (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
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| 23:28:15 | → | dtman34 joins (~dtman34@2601:447:d182:6512:c2f9:c3a:b83d:6490) |
| 23:30:48 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:31:25 | → | peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 23:33:29 | × | dtman34 quits (~dtman34@2601:447:d182:6512:c2f9:c3a:b83d:6490) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 23:36:39 | × | acidjnk quits (~acidjnk@p200300d6e70b6617f54dbe6cdef613d5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 23:40:20 | → | athan joins (~athan@syn-047-132-161-157.res.spectrum.com) |
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| 23:55:10 | × | dtman34 quits (~dtman34@c-73-242-68-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Client Quit) |
| 23:59:05 | → | tzh joins (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 23:59:58 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-07-07.