Logs on 2025-07-09 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:58:30 | <Axman6> | What's the state of the art for wrapping C libraries these days? I'd love to be able to just chuck a C header at some tool and get corresponding definitions in Haskell, but afaiui that's not how any of the tools work, right? |
| 02:00:05 | <glguy> | is this what AI is for? poorly done FFI? |
| 02:00:53 | <glguy> | I hadn't heard of an interesting advances in C bindings |
| 02:01:01 | <glguy> | any* |
| 02:03:47 | <geekosaur> | c2hs works that way. the problem is that C function definitions are ambiguous when it comes to pointers |
| 02:04:26 | <geekosaur> | are they arrays? "out" parameters? is a double indirection a mutable array, an array of arrays, or an "out" array? |
| 02:04:44 | <glguy> | the couple times I tried c2hs it took me longer to get it to do what I wanted that to do it manually |
| 02:05:13 | <geekosaur> | ghc2hs and successors use a modified c2hs, but the headers they read are generated from an API spec and are commented with the missing information |
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| 02:07:38 | <geekosaur> | basically, C types are so primitive that you really need to study the API of the function you're binding and write the correct marshaling code yourself |
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| 02:08:35 | <geekosaur> | unless you can pull the gtk2hsc2hs trick and work (directly or indirectly) from an API spec that has all the information you need to write it properly |
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| 02:16:27 | <Axman6> | geekosaur: just wrapping all the structs/non-function types would be enough for me |
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| 02:17:28 | <Axman6> | The other big problem that I've run into is wanting to wrapp macOS libraries, which often use Apple's blocks syntax, which none of the tools seem to know about |
| 02:17:41 | <Axman6> | s/pp/p |
| 02:17:48 | <geekosaur> | c2hs should mostly be able to do that unless they do things like making variable length structs (which I think is either technically illegal or barely legal) with the last element extending past the end of the declared part |
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| 02:19:35 | <geekosaur> | C's just evil |
| 02:20:27 | <geekosaur> | (I wrote a lot of C code between 1985 and 2016) |
| 02:21:40 | <geekosaur> | and yeh, nobody supports blocks. I thiiiink Apple tried to get them standardized but they chose a different extension instead? |
| 02:22:20 | <glguy> | were blocks meant to be used outside of ObjC? |
| 02:22:35 | <geekosaur> | Apple added them to clang |
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| 02:23:35 | <geekosaur> | last I heard the C standard committee was considering importing C++'s lambda syntax |
| 02:23:48 | <geekosaur> | but hadn't made a decision yet |
| 02:24:06 | <glguy> | with captures? |
| 02:24:14 | <geekosaur> | don't recall |
| 02:24:23 | <geekosaur> | probably not since C can't do them right |
| 02:24:37 | <geekosaur> | hence "syntax" |
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| 02:27:30 | <Axman6> | Hmm, looks like I made more progress on getting this stuff work than I thought I did, looking at my old code. I at least got enums... |
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| 02:31:54 | <Axman6> | urgh, ok, it's not even blocks that cause problems, Apple use types like `const es_message_t *_Nonnull message` and that confuses c2hs, "The symbol `*' does not fit here." |
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| 02:32:32 | <Axman6> | (and even more confusingly, the location it points to is not where the * even is, it points to half way through the es_message_t) |
| 02:33:55 | <geekosaur> | sounds like a macro expanding to some Apple-specific attribute? |
| 02:34:26 | <geekosaur> | (the visible `*` is fine assuming `es_message_t` expands to a valid type) |
| 02:35:19 | <Axman6> | yeah, that's what I thought too. I tried #define _Nonnull but that didn't help |
| 02:35:34 | <geekosaur> | no, you want to look at how es_message_t is defined |
| 02:36:39 | <geekosaur> | try using clang -E on the source file |
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| 02:38:33 | <geekosaur> | I suspect it will turn out to be a macro which involves watever Apple has chosen to use instead of gcc's __attribute__() |
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| 02:38:43 | <geekosaur> | *whatever |
| 02:40:04 | <Axman6> | It expands to es_respond_result_t es_respond_auth_result(es_client_t *_Nonnull client, const es_message_t *_Nonnull message, es_auth_result_t result, bool cache);, which is preceeded with a bunch of attributes |
| 02:40:20 | <geekosaur> | if you're really lucky it will turn out to share with __attribute__() that you can #define it away for use by tools |
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| 02:41:50 | <geekosaur> | that sounds like either you didn't do what I asked or there is a typedef for es_message_t including tomfoolery |
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| 02:47:05 | <Axman6> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/N2G4Z9iq |
| 02:48:49 | <Axman6> | is typedef enum : uint32_t { ... } as C++ ism? |
| 02:54:46 | <Axman6> | Asking because one of the headers that get included is <sys/mount.h>, which include the following definition: https://gist.github.com/axman6/64c207ab31310d26e175024594fc46fa, c2hs says "The symbol `:' does not fit here." |
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| 02:59:51 | <geekosaur> | C++ and I think maybe the very latest C standard? |
| 03:00:02 | <geekosaur> | otherwise C always treats an enum as int |
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| 03:03:30 | <geekosaur> | okay, apparently just C++ |
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| 03:07:56 | <geekosaur> | also I note that strict in your first paste does that extensible struct thing I mentioned (note the `uint64_t opaque[]` at the end) |
| 03:08:10 | <geekosaur> | *struct |
| 03:09:08 | <geekosaur> | that's going to make life fairly difficult if you need to save the whole thing and cough it up on a future FFI call |
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| 03:14:43 | <geekosaur> | although in fact C is no better, they would need to provide a function to capture it as an opaque blob on the heap to which you get a pointer that can be freed by another function |
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| 03:16:48 | <probie> | I think the assumption is probably that values of es_message_t are never created by hand, only ever passed by reference |
| 03:17:15 | <geekosaur> | would pretty much have to be |
| 03:17:21 | <geekosaur> | I just worry about lifetimes |
| 03:17:35 | <geekosaur> | (where's rust when you need it? 😈 ) |
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| 03:18:19 | <probie> | Not quite related; why can't GHC's FFI support passing structs |
| 03:19:14 | <geekosaur> | because the ABI varies by compiler and platform and sometimes by how the function is called (e.g. varargs/stdarg, but also what other parameters use what registers) |
| 03:19:45 | <geekosaur> | the raku folks fought with this, came up with something that worked on amd64, then found aarch64 was completely different |
| 03:20:07 | <geekosaur> | and then found even amd64 didn't quite work when returning them |
| 03:20:59 | <geekosaur> | you are very much better off handing that problem off to a C compiler and sticking to pointers otherwise |
| 03:22:37 | <probie> | Which I'm pretty sure GHC can already do, with the capi calling convention stuff |
| 03:23:28 | <geekosaur> | you still have to get stuff across the boundary |
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| 03:24:31 | <geekosaur> | as is, capi and ccall can mostly share code. I think capi would need to be thoroughly reworked to even attempt it, and then I think you run into Windows questions iirc? |
| 03:25:24 | <geekosaur> | (I may be wrong there, may only have been ccall vs. the now defunct stdcall, not capi at all) |
| 03:26:10 | <probie> | I'm not really complaining and know it's not trivial to solve, I just find it frustrating that I can't naively wrap certain C APIs and have to introduce "new" versions of any function that takes a struct by value or returns a struct |
| 03:26:45 | <geekosaur> | but in any case you'd still at some level be writing or reading a struct pointer, all capi could do would be to turn it nto a direct parameter/return |
| 03:27:39 | <geekosaur> | +in its generated stub |
| 03:28:17 | <geekosaur> | personally I consider this just another example of C being a mess of bad hacks |
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| 03:31:46 | <probie> | With the library I'm currently working with, I end up with a lot of places where I'd like to be able to write `f =<< (g foo bar)` instead of `alloca $ \someStruct -> g' someStruct foo bar >> f someStruct` |
| 03:32:03 | <probie> | Because it deals with graphics, and colours are structs passed by value |
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| 05:09:53 | <jreicher> | ski: why I think of the meaning of typeclasses (and the checking of them) non-constructively. |
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| 11:10:36 | <ski> | lambdas (with and without capturing, iirc) were considered in C23 (multiple proposals by Jens Gustedt (of INRIA)), but weren't adopted |
| 11:11:36 | <ski> | jreicher : in which non-constructive way, more specifically ? |
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| 11:52:11 | <jreicher> | ski: Understanding typeclass declarations without imagining the kinds of types that might be instances of it. |
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| 12:02:09 | <sprout> | > 2+2 |
| 12:02:10 | <lambdabot> | 4 |
| 12:02:23 | <sprout> | > let 5 = 2+2 in 2+2 |
| 12:02:24 | <lambdabot> | 4 |
| 12:02:30 | <sprout> | boo |
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| 12:03:08 | <sprout> | > let 5 = 2+2 in 5 |
| 12:03:10 | <lambdabot> | 5 |
| 12:03:15 | <sprout> | worse |
| 12:03:20 | <ski> | jreicher : understanding the interface it provides, in a more abstract fashion ? |
| 12:03:44 | <ski> | > let 2 + 2 = 5 in 2 + 2 |
| 12:03:46 | <lambdabot> | 5 |
| 12:03:56 | <sprout> | cool! |
| 12:04:05 | <ski> | > let 2 + 2 = 5 in 1 + 3 |
| 12:04:06 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: <interactive>:3:5-13: Non-exhaustive patterns in function + |
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| 12:15:24 | <jreicher> | ski: to my mind a typeclass does not really "provide" anything. It states properties/constraints that any instance of that class must have. The instances do the true "providing". |
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| 12:16:39 | <jreicher> | It's a bit like the axioms of a mathematical theory. With every axiom you add, you're not saying what the theory is; rather you are ruling out things it can't be. |
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| 12:17:07 | <merijn> | That sounds a bit like typeclassopedia, no? |
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| 12:18:38 | <jreicher> | Don't know! Haven't really read it. |
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| 13:04:47 | <ski> | jreicher : right. "provide" as in what instances of it must provide, and as in what you're provided, if you add such a type constraint constraint on a type variable in (the signature of) an operation you're defining |
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| 17:10:37 | ChanServ | sets mode +v yahb2 |
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| 17:16:09 | <monochrom> | One needs a balance between constructing and specifying. |
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| 17:17:19 | <monochrom> | The logical conclusion of being all constructing and never specifying is that only machine code, nay, logic gates, nay, transistors, nay, quantum mechanics, is purely constructing. |
| 17:20:26 | <monochrom> | Another way to say it---one way to see it---is that if you never specify then you never have abstraction and you never build upon someone else's work. You would be speaking like "I want to construct a hamburger, starting with the big bang". |
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| 17:23:05 | <EvanR> | https://archive.org/details/4-byte-burger |
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| 17:24:15 | <monochrom> | Neat. |
| 17:24:43 | <EvanR> | there's a whole story behind this image, which is itself a carefully researched forgery |
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| 19:05:43 | <drlkf> | hey, would anyone be willing to give me a hackage endorsement? i can provide my github profile and a package i'd like to upload |
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| 19:43:11 | <Nosrep> | is there a way to make stack use wasm ghc? works fine in cabal with the --with-compiler and --with-hc-pkg flags but can't find something comparable with stack |
| 19:43:28 | <Nosrep> | there's a --compiler flag and stack.yaml option but it doesn't like the wasm ghc names i give it |
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| 19:49:54 | <tomsmeding> | Nosrep: do you have a specific reason for wanting to use stack? |
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| 19:52:53 | <Nosrep> | i just like it more |
| 19:53:01 | <Nosrep> | and it has the extra-deps which i'm using |
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| 20:05:31 | <tomsmeding> | (extra-deps are just normal dependencies in cabal if they come from hackage, and are source-repository-package stanzas in a cabal.project if they don't) |
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| 20:13:06 | <Nosrep> | yeah figured that out |
| 20:13:11 | <Nosrep> | i'll probably just jump to cabal for this then |
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| 22:44:04 | <jreicher> | merijn: I had a look at typeclassopedia. I think I understand why you said that and I agree. |
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| 22:58:06 | <geekosaur> | monochrom: “If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.” |
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| 23:14:15 | <jreicher> | Only if you don't have naive set comprehension |
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| 23:47:30 | <Axman6> | geekosaur: probie: sorry for running away yesterday on all the C-FFI talk, it was very helpful. I have a feeling wrapping this library will be pretty difficult, because it does appear to call into C++ (and does need access to all these structs from various parts of the OS - this is the macOS endpoint security framework, so it does things like provide the stat struct of opened files, or structs that represent filesystem mounts) |
| 23:48:33 | <geekosaur> | if it has C wrappers then those should deal with that for you. if it doesn't, well, C++ calling conventions are like the struct calling conventions I mentioned yesterday, only more so. |
| 23:48:53 | <geekosaur> | the Raku folks died on that hill too 🙂 |
| 23:49:38 | <Axman6> | yeah - well the current thing that's stopping c2hs is the enum : uint32_t stuff (I had a quick look to see if that's something that was added to a C standard but then went home) |
| 23:49:58 | <geekosaur> | cppreference says it's not in a C standard |
| 23:50:13 | <geekosaur> | (they do generally note when C has something, sometimes in a different form) |
| 23:51:19 | <geekosaur> | I think SWIG has some ability to deal with both of those things, but that would add a layer of indirection because I don't think it supports generating Haskell bindings so you would need to generate something that Haskell can bind to |
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| 23:51:59 | <geekosaur> | (not necessarily C: IIRC SSWIG can generate Python bindings, then there's https://flora.pm/packages/@hackage/inline-python) |
| 23:53:23 | <geekosaur> | *SWIG |
| 23:53:38 | <humasect> | why does haskell need building on mac(homebrew)? are there no binaries |
| 23:53:46 | <humasect> | taking some hours |
| 23:53:54 | <Axman6> | my interest in this was spurred by this announcement https://alt-romes.github.io/posts/2025-07-05-packaging-a-haskell-library-as-a-swift-binary-xcframework.html, which made the possibility of doing things by making a C wrapper that calls Haskell a possibility, but at some point I will probably still need to interact with the C structs |
| 23:54:03 | <Axman6> | humasect: use ghcup, not homebrew |
| 23:54:59 | <Axman6> | I would have thought homebrew also had the pre-compiled binaries the GHC team make, but nonetheless, homebrew is the wrong tool for the job, ghcup lets you manage multiple compilers, and all the tools like cabal, HLS |
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| 23:57:21 | <geekosaur> | homebrew is weird, I don't know why their binaries stuff doesn't have ghc on it and in any case you'd be stuck with whatever version they bottle I think. |
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| 23:59:44 | <Axman6> | geekosaur: have you done anything with inline-c? Wondering if that could avoid some of these issues by offloading more to the C compiler |
| 23:59:58 | <geekosaur> | I know it exists but haven't used it |
All times are in UTC on 2025-07-09.