Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2025-07-09 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:58:30 <Axman6> What's the state of the art for wrapping C libraries these days? I'd love to be able to just chuck a C header at some tool and get corresponding definitions in Haskell, but afaiui that's not how any of the tools work, right?
02:00:05 <glguy> is this what AI is for? poorly done FFI?
02:00:53 <glguy> I hadn't heard of an interesting advances in C bindings
02:01:01 <glguy> any*
02:03:47 <geekosaur> c2hs works that way. the problem is that C function definitions are ambiguous when it comes to pointers
02:04:26 <geekosaur> are they arrays? "out" parameters? is a double indirection a mutable array, an array of arrays, or an "out" array?
02:04:44 <glguy> the couple times I tried c2hs it took me longer to get it to do what I wanted that to do it manually
02:05:13 <geekosaur> ghc2hs and successors use a modified c2hs, but the headers they read are generated from an API spec and are commented with the missing information
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02:07:38 <geekosaur> basically, C types are so primitive that you really need to study the API of the function you're binding and write the correct marshaling code yourself
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02:08:35 <geekosaur> unless you can pull the gtk2hsc2hs trick and work (directly or indirectly) from an API spec that has all the information you need to write it properly
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02:16:27 <Axman6> geekosaur: just wrapping all the structs/non-function types would be enough for me
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02:17:28 <Axman6> The other big problem that I've run into is wanting to wrapp macOS libraries, which often use Apple's blocks syntax, which none of the tools seem to know about
02:17:41 <Axman6> s/pp/p
02:17:48 <geekosaur> c2hs should mostly be able to do that unless they do things like making variable length structs (which I think is either technically illegal or barely legal) with the last element extending past the end of the declared part
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02:19:35 <geekosaur> C's just evil
02:20:27 <geekosaur> (I wrote a lot of C code between 1985 and 2016)
02:21:40 <geekosaur> and yeh, nobody supports blocks. I thiiiink Apple tried to get them standardized but they chose a different extension instead?
02:22:20 <glguy> were blocks meant to be used outside of ObjC?
02:22:35 <geekosaur> Apple added them to clang
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02:23:35 <geekosaur> last I heard the C standard committee was considering importing C++'s lambda syntax
02:23:48 <geekosaur> but hadn't made a decision yet
02:24:06 <glguy> with captures?
02:24:14 <geekosaur> don't recall
02:24:23 <geekosaur> probably not since C can't do them right
02:24:37 <geekosaur> hence "syntax"
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02:27:30 <Axman6> Hmm, looks like I made more progress on getting this stuff work than I thought I did, looking at my old code. I at least got enums...
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02:31:54 <Axman6> urgh, ok, it's not even blocks that cause problems, Apple use types like `const es_message_t *_Nonnull message` and that confuses c2hs, "The symbol `*' does not fit here."
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02:32:32 <Axman6> (and even more confusingly, the location it points to is not where the * even is, it points to half way through the es_message_t)
02:33:55 <geekosaur> sounds like a macro expanding to some Apple-specific attribute?
02:34:26 <geekosaur> (the visible `*` is fine assuming `es_message_t` expands to a valid type)
02:35:19 <Axman6> yeah, that's what I thought too. I tried #define _Nonnull but that didn't help
02:35:34 <geekosaur> no, you want to look at how es_message_t is defined
02:36:39 <geekosaur> try using clang -E on the source file
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02:38:33 <geekosaur> I suspect it will turn out to be a macro which involves watever Apple has chosen to use instead of gcc's __attribute__()
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02:38:43 <geekosaur> *whatever
02:40:04 <Axman6> It expands to es_respond_result_t es_respond_auth_result(es_client_t *_Nonnull client, const es_message_t *_Nonnull message, es_auth_result_t result, bool cache);, which is preceeded with a bunch of attributes
02:40:20 <geekosaur> if you're really lucky it will turn out to share with __attribute__() that you can #define it away for use by tools
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02:41:50 <geekosaur> that sounds like either you didn't do what I asked or there is a typedef for es_message_t including tomfoolery
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02:47:05 <Axman6> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/N2G4Z9iq
02:48:49 <Axman6> is typedef enum : uint32_t { ... } as C++ ism?
02:54:46 <Axman6> Asking because one of the headers that get included is <sys/mount.h>, which include the following definition: https://gist.github.com/axman6/64c207ab31310d26e175024594fc46fa, c2hs says "The symbol `:' does not fit here."
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02:59:51 <geekosaur> C++ and I think maybe the very latest C standard?
03:00:02 <geekosaur> otherwise C always treats an enum as int
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03:03:30 <geekosaur> okay, apparently just C++
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03:07:56 <geekosaur> also I note that strict in your first paste does that extensible struct thing I mentioned (note the `uint64_t opaque[]` at the end)
03:08:10 <geekosaur> *struct
03:09:08 <geekosaur> that's going to make life fairly difficult if you need to save the whole thing and cough it up on a future FFI call
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03:14:43 <geekosaur> although in fact C is no better, they would need to provide a function to capture it as an opaque blob on the heap to which you get a pointer that can be freed by another function
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03:16:48 <probie> I think the assumption is probably that values of es_message_t are never created by hand, only ever passed by reference
03:17:15 <geekosaur> would pretty much have to be
03:17:21 <geekosaur> I just worry about lifetimes
03:17:35 <geekosaur> (where's rust when you need it? 😈 )
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03:18:19 <probie> Not quite related; why can't GHC's FFI support passing structs
03:19:14 <geekosaur> because the ABI varies by compiler and platform and sometimes by how the function is called (e.g. varargs/stdarg, but also what other parameters use what registers)
03:19:45 <geekosaur> the raku folks fought with this, came up with something that worked on amd64, then found aarch64 was completely different
03:20:07 <geekosaur> and then found even amd64 didn't quite work when returning them
03:20:59 <geekosaur> you are very much better off handing that problem off to a C compiler and sticking to pointers otherwise
03:22:37 <probie> Which I'm pretty sure GHC can already do, with the capi calling convention stuff
03:23:28 <geekosaur> you still have to get stuff across the boundary
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03:24:31 <geekosaur> as is, capi and ccall can mostly share code. I think capi would need to be thoroughly reworked to even attempt it, and then I think you run into Windows questions iirc?
03:25:24 <geekosaur> (I may be wrong there, may only have been ccall vs. the now defunct stdcall, not capi at all)
03:26:10 <probie> I'm not really complaining and know it's not trivial to solve, I just find it frustrating that I can't naively wrap certain C APIs and have to introduce "new" versions of any function that takes a struct by value or returns a struct
03:26:45 <geekosaur> but in any case you'd still at some level be writing or reading a struct pointer, all capi could do would be to turn it nto a direct parameter/return
03:27:39 <geekosaur> +in its generated stub
03:28:17 <geekosaur> personally I consider this just another example of C being a mess of bad hacks
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03:31:46 <probie> With the library I'm currently working with, I end up with a lot of places where I'd like to be able to write `f =<< (g foo bar)` instead of `alloca $ \someStruct -> g' someStruct foo bar >> f someStruct`
03:32:03 <probie> Because it deals with graphics, and colours are structs passed by value
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05:09:53 <jreicher> ski: why I think of the meaning of typeclasses (and the checking of them) non-constructively.
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11:10:36 <ski> lambdas (with and without capturing, iirc) were considered in C23 (multiple proposals by Jens Gustedt (of INRIA)), but weren't adopted
11:11:36 <ski> jreicher : in which non-constructive way, more specifically ?
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11:52:11 <jreicher> ski: Understanding typeclass declarations without imagining the kinds of types that might be instances of it.
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12:02:09 <sprout> > 2+2
12:02:10 <lambdabot> 4
12:02:23 <sprout> > let 5 = 2+2 in 2+2
12:02:24 <lambdabot> 4
12:02:30 <sprout> boo
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12:03:08 <sprout> > let 5 = 2+2 in 5
12:03:10 <lambdabot> 5
12:03:15 <sprout> worse
12:03:20 <ski> jreicher : understanding the interface it provides, in a more abstract fashion ?
12:03:44 <ski> > let 2 + 2 = 5 in 2 + 2
12:03:46 <lambdabot> 5
12:03:56 <sprout> cool!
12:04:05 <ski> > let 2 + 2 = 5 in 1 + 3
12:04:06 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:5-13: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
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12:15:24 <jreicher> ski: to my mind a typeclass does not really "provide" anything. It states properties/constraints that any instance of that class must have. The instances do the true "providing".
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12:16:39 <jreicher> It's a bit like the axioms of a mathematical theory. With every axiom you add, you're not saying what the theory is; rather you are ruling out things it can't be.
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12:17:07 <merijn> That sounds a bit like typeclassopedia, no?
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12:18:38 <jreicher> Don't know! Haven't really read it.
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13:04:47 <ski> jreicher : right. "provide" as in what instances of it must provide, and as in what you're provided, if you add such a type constraint constraint on a type variable in (the signature of) an operation you're defining
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17:16:09 <monochrom> One needs a balance between constructing and specifying.
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17:17:19 <monochrom> The logical conclusion of being all constructing and never specifying is that only machine code, nay, logic gates, nay, transistors, nay, quantum mechanics, is purely constructing.
17:20:26 <monochrom> Another way to say it---one way to see it---is that if you never specify then you never have abstraction and you never build upon someone else's work. You would be speaking like "I want to construct a hamburger, starting with the big bang".
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17:23:05 <EvanR> https://archive.org/details/4-byte-burger
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17:24:15 <monochrom> Neat.
17:24:43 <EvanR> there's a whole story behind this image, which is itself a carefully researched forgery
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19:05:43 <drlkf> hey, would anyone be willing to give me a hackage endorsement? i can provide my github profile and a package i'd like to upload
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19:43:11 <Nosrep> is there a way to make stack use wasm ghc? works fine in cabal with the --with-compiler and --with-hc-pkg flags but can't find something comparable with stack
19:43:28 <Nosrep> there's a --compiler flag and stack.yaml option but it doesn't like the wasm ghc names i give it
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19:49:54 <tomsmeding> Nosrep: do you have a specific reason for wanting to use stack?
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19:52:53 <Nosrep> i just like it more
19:53:01 <Nosrep> and it has the extra-deps which i'm using
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20:05:31 <tomsmeding> (extra-deps are just normal dependencies in cabal if they come from hackage, and are source-repository-package stanzas in a cabal.project if they don't)
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20:13:06 <Nosrep> yeah figured that out
20:13:11 <Nosrep> i'll probably just jump to cabal for this then
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22:44:04 <jreicher> merijn: I had a look at typeclassopedia. I think I understand why you said that and I agree.
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22:58:06 <geekosaur> monochrom: “If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
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23:14:15 <jreicher> Only if you don't have naive set comprehension
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23:47:30 <Axman6> geekosaur: probie: sorry for running away yesterday on all the C-FFI talk, it was very helpful. I have a feeling wrapping this library will be pretty difficult, because it does appear to call into C++ (and does need access to all these structs from various parts of the OS - this is the macOS endpoint security framework, so it does things like provide the stat struct of opened files, or structs that represent filesystem mounts)
23:48:33 <geekosaur> if it has C wrappers then those should deal with that for you. if it doesn't, well, C++ calling conventions are like the struct calling conventions I mentioned yesterday, only more so.
23:48:53 <geekosaur> the Raku folks died on that hill too 🙂
23:49:38 <Axman6> yeah - well the current thing that's stopping c2hs is the enum : uint32_t stuff (I had a quick look to see if that's something that was added to a C standard but then went home)
23:49:58 <geekosaur> cppreference says it's not in a C standard
23:50:13 <geekosaur> (they do generally note when C has something, sometimes in a different form)
23:51:19 <geekosaur> I think SWIG has some ability to deal with both of those things, but that would add a layer of indirection because I don't think it supports generating Haskell bindings so you would need to generate something that Haskell can bind to
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23:51:59 <geekosaur> (not necessarily C: IIRC SSWIG can generate Python bindings, then there's https://flora.pm/packages/@hackage/inline-python)
23:53:23 <geekosaur> *SWIG
23:53:38 <humasect> why does haskell need building on mac(homebrew)? are there no binaries
23:53:46 <humasect> taking some hours
23:53:54 <Axman6> my interest in this was spurred by this announcement https://alt-romes.github.io/posts/2025-07-05-packaging-a-haskell-library-as-a-swift-binary-xcframework.html, which made the possibility of doing things by making a C wrapper that calls Haskell a possibility, but at some point I will probably still need to interact with the C structs
23:54:03 <Axman6> humasect: use ghcup, not homebrew
23:54:59 <Axman6> I would have thought homebrew also had the pre-compiled binaries the GHC team make, but nonetheless, homebrew is the wrong tool for the job, ghcup lets you manage multiple compilers, and all the tools like cabal, HLS
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23:57:21 <geekosaur> homebrew is weird, I don't know why their binaries stuff doesn't have ghc on it and in any case you'd be stuck with whatever version they bottle I think.
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23:59:44 <Axman6> geekosaur: have you done anything with inline-c? Wondering if that could avoid some of these issues by offloading more to the C compiler
23:59:58 <geekosaur> I know it exists but haven't used it

All times are in UTC on 2025-07-09.