Logs on 2025-07-11 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:04:15 | <Profpatsch> | okay uh I need to sleep over this, Generics are so hard |
| 00:05:14 | <geekosaur> | I use nheko, it's a little less well designed UI and not quite as complete (mostly missing admin-type stuff) but it's significantly faster |
| 00:05:40 | <geekosaur> | and while some people here consider its IRC-ish design a minus, I consider it a plus 🙂 |
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| 00:06:59 | <geekosaur> | element is one of those ridiculous electron apps |
| 00:07:28 | <geekosaur> | gotta wade through a few hundred thousand lines of JS just to sneeze |
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| 02:21:30 | <probie> | What's the current state of the art in cross-platform UI? Is it still either wx or "spin up a webserver and make them use their browser"? |
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| 02:22:00 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
| 02:24:17 | <geekosaur> | and probably always will be |
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| 03:02:06 | <jreicher> | A web-UI is not cross-platform. The web browser becomes the platform. It's a way of changing the problem rather than solvingit. |
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| 03:05:21 | <c_wraith> | It changes it to something that's easier than using native toolkits for each platform. |
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| 03:10:45 | <jreicher> | No arguments there. But there are downsides to changing the problem rather than solving it. |
| 03:10:52 | <geekosaur> | web browser developers (a) have a lot more incentive to make sure things work the same way everywhere (b) aren't hobbled by pre-existing platform-specific behavior |
| 03:12:13 | <jreicher> | I agree, but browsers still carry some history from when they weren't being used for this purpose. I think we'd have something a bit different if it was designed as an abstraction layer. |
| 03:13:49 | <geekosaur> | true, but they're still far more successful at "write once, run everywhere" than Java ever was |
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| 03:23:35 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> geekosaur: it can ;) |
| 03:24:11 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> https://github.com/stable-haskell/ghc/pull/34 |
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| 05:36:27 | <Axman6> | I wish there was a Haskell library that wrapped Clay (https://www.nicbarker.com/clay) or reimplemented it and offered a lightweight, cross platform window system |
| 05:39:02 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> That looks interesting to support, can be that hard to throw together some bindings. I wonder if i can use it for my little game as an overlay |
| 05:39:06 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Wrapping the parts that Clay covers would be nice yeah, but remember that it asks you to provide your own renderer, like Nuklear or Dear ImGUI (IIRC?) |
| 05:40:07 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Something on top of gloss would be enough for GUI-only apps tho, for games you would use an OpenGL/Vulkan renderer instead |
| 05:40:13 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> > Renderer agnostic: outputs a sorted list of rendering primitives that can be easily composited in any 3D engine, and even compiled to HTML (examples provided) |
| 05:40:15 | <haskellbridge> | Cant be that bad to wrangle this into opengl |
| 05:41:10 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> It's reasonably simple, a lot of C libraries take this approach (again, Nuklear, Dear ImGUI, MicroUI, etc) |
| 05:41:15 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> https://github.com/nicbarker/clay/blob/main/renderers/SDL2/clay_renderer_SDL2.c they have a sdl2 renderer |
| 05:41:49 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Im already using dear imgui, so i wonder how far can take dear imgui, as in make it not look like ass and use it for game UI |
| 05:42:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The renderers are separate from the actual library, that's why none of them are included in clay.h |
| 05:43:31 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Do you pass them in as a function table? |
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| 05:45:54 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> No, you call Clay first to get the command list and then you call the renderer with that command list, kinda like a free monad interpreter, see https://github.com/nicbarker/clay/blob/main/examples/SDL2-video-demo/main.c#L41-L48 |
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| 05:51:15 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Another option is rewriting Clay. It's reasonably small, well documented and basically a DSL with multiple layout resolution passes. Could be a fun project idk |
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| 05:57:07 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> interesting it can do retained mode too, good find, will try to use for my shitty game |
| 05:57:11 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> right after i finish the current task |
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| 06:22:43 | <Enrico63> | tomsmeding and geekosaur, thanks, I'll try that! |
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| 06:39:06 | <haskellbridge> | <Kyle Butt> Crossposting with matrix: I am attempting to upload a new candidate for "persist" on Hackage, but I need upload endorsement. User name: "KyleButt" |
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| 06:47:26 | <jackdk> | Kyle Butt: I see you've been added as a maintainer for that package. Please email hackage-trustees@haskell.org and someone should be able to give you those right. |
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| 13:54:11 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Say i have a sum type "Foo = FooA A | FooB B" can i somehow derive the type classes "Exists w B" where exists checks whether "Exists w Foo" and Foo is of the variant FooA? This is specifically relating to the ExplExists type class from apecs |
| 13:54:23 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I know i can do this with Generics, but im wondering if there is another way |
| 13:56:22 | <EvanR> | is that what prisms are for |
| 13:56:29 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> With type families, say I have some type family "Magic" which if used such as "Magic '[ FooA := A, FooB := B ]" the problem I see there is that FooA and FooB are constructors and im not sure if i can pass those around like that |
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| 13:56:53 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> EvanR: oh yeah it kinda do be a prism good point |
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| 13:57:58 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Okay then lets rephrase, can a prism be derived using type families instead of generics? Because again "FooA" isnt first class kinda |
| 13:58:35 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> "FooA" has the kind "Type" and the type "A -> Foo" but i cant reverse it into "Foo -> Maybe A" |
| 13:58:46 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> (Literally a prism damn) |
| 13:59:27 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Hopefully im making sense, im struggling a bit with explaining this |
| 14:01:19 | <EvanR> | template haskell is another way, worse than generics |
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| 14:02:50 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Right, im aiming for better, not worse :P |
| 14:03:34 | <EvanR> | an awk script? xD |
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| 14:06:03 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Nah, ill just use TH to shell out to a rust program |
| 14:06:05 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Its fine |
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| 14:10:53 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: suggestion for explaining this: write out a minimal example including the manually-written definition that you want to generate automatically ;) |
| 14:11:19 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Very fair, but i cant do that on the bus :P |
| 14:11:23 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> So ill do it once im home |
| 14:11:32 | <tomsmeding> | https://play.haskell.org works on mobile! |
| 14:11:34 | <tomsmeding> | ... kinda? |
| 14:11:47 | <tomsmeding> | I'll be the last to claim that it's ergonomic on mobile |
| 14:11:56 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> But i think it boils down to "can i generate a prism for a simple ish sum type without generics or TH" |
| 14:12:57 | <tomsmeding> | the only ways in ghc haskell to generate value-level functions based on some reflective property (e.g. the definition of a data type) are generics and TH |
| 14:13:07 | <tomsmeding> | if you mean on the type level, then I still have no clue what you mean :) |
| 14:13:33 | <tomsmeding> | well, and an external source preprocessor |
| 14:14:21 | <tomsmeding> | for which GHC actually has some integration, as e.g. explained in the readme of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/record-dot-preprocessor |
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| 14:21:19 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> https://play.haskell.org/saved/I0JIu6ZS |
| 14:21:23 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> So say i have that |
| 14:21:27 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Idk if it compiles, didnt test |
| 14:21:53 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> But i want to generate the last 4 instance declarations from the definition of Foo, A and B |
| 14:22:57 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> It boils down to being able to asking the question "do we have A? Well we have A if we have FooA" and answering it automatically without me havimg to write all of it |
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| 14:25:06 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Why is this useful? In an ECS architecture, i can query the existence of A based on the existence and value of Foo |
| 14:25:16 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Because Foo contains A |
| 14:25:19 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Maybe |
| 14:28:34 | <EvanR> | tomsmeding, what about Data.Data |
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| 14:40:53 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: fair! |
| 14:42:05 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: is there a good reason this is not one class with explGet :: Int -> m (Maybe c) |
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| 14:48:02 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Yes because "ExplGet m c => ExplGet m (Maybe c)" and not having to unwrap a maybe is ever so slightly faster |
| 14:48:10 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> tomsmeding how is data.data different from generics |
| 14:48:13 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Looks about the same |
| 14:48:22 | <tomsmeding> | generics goes via the type system, data.data is more untyped |
| 14:48:39 | <tomsmeding> | with generics you have metadata on the type level, with data.data you have it on the value level |
| 14:48:41 | <tomsmeding> | ~ish |
| 14:49:22 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Is it still slow as hell for compilation? |
| 14:49:29 | <tomsmeding> | I have never used data.data |
| 14:49:47 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Ive never seen it used |
| 14:51:01 | <glguy> | I think that Data.Data can still optimize well. While it's not typed Generics it works similarly to GHC.Generics where there's a run-time generics representation that can get optimized away |
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| 14:51:29 | <tomsmeding> | yep, I'm not saying generics is great or anything, just trying to describe the difference in API |
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| 14:52:41 | <glguy> | I was mentioning that because I used to think that one was inherently more efficient |
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| 14:58:50 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Generics and data afaik are both efficient, my concern comes from the compile time overhead more than runtime |
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| 15:00:50 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: https://play.haskell.org/saved/gB4gqUMK |
| 15:02:50 | <tomsmeding> | can't write the case expressions using quotes because the patterns are generated, and you can't put splices in patterns |
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| 15:03:45 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Okay cool, will use that then |
| 15:03:53 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> TH is fine, im using it already, or plan to |
| 15:04:07 | <tomsmeding> | TH is not super slow to compile |
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| 16:08:51 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: It kinda is, though |
| 16:09:10 | <merijn> | It depends a lot on how much you have |
| 16:09:30 | <merijn> | But it's certainly slower than the same code statically written out |
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| 16:13:28 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Id rather incur some compilation cost in leaf modules than have to write it out |
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| 16:13:45 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I wouldnt put a lot of TH in non leaf modules ofc |
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| 16:51:36 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: the higher you put it in the tree, the less it needs to be recompiled ;) |
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| 17:33:05 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> tomsmeding lower no |
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| 17:33:11 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Well |
| 17:33:17 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Depends which way is yoir trre |
| 17:33:39 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Mine is upsidedown |
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| 18:58:38 | <Frostillicus> | I've got some data I'm reading from files that needs to have statistics calculated on it. I could load the data into a sql table but I'd rather avoid it if possible. Would there be any potential issues going the straightforward route of `Vector (Vector Either ParseFail ParseResult) -> Vector Stats` with `Stats` containing a `Map` of counts? |
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| 19:08:27 | <EvanR> | this type signature seems to imply you discard all the parse failures |
| 19:08:56 | <EvanR> | other than that it should work |
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| 19:15:35 | <Frostillicus> | Thanks, I'd simply want to count the parse failures and that would go into the `Map` as well |
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| 19:22:02 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: assuming changes to uniformly random modules, modules closer to the root of the tree are recompiled less |
| 19:22:14 | <tomsmeding> | in computer science my trees have the root at the top |
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| 19:43:27 | <EvanR> | strive to uniformly randomly edit your code |
| 19:43:38 | <EvanR> | like uniformly random is the best rock paper scissors strat |
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| 22:09:04 | × | weary-traveler quits (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 23:03:50 | × | trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-85-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 23:49:26 | → | dtman34 joins (~dtman34@c-73-242-68-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 23:51:48 | × | Unicorn_Princess quits (~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:54:38 | → | weary-traveler joins (~user@user/user363627) |
| 23:57:05 | × | tmciver quits (~tim@syn-198-255-177-240.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 23:57:25 | × | dtman34 quits (~dtman34@c-73-242-68-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 23:59:12 | → | tmciver joins (~tim@syn-198-255-177-240.res.spectrum.com) |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-07-11.