Logs on 2025-07-13 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 06:11:36 | <Axman6> | byorgey: Just watching your ZuriHac talk, I really enjoyed it. I've done a few CTFs in Haskell and found needing a bunch of libraries and having to reinvent things like xoring the cycle of one bytestring with another so frustrating. Did you end up posting the solution to the last problem? (Also, so weird seeing the fase of someone you've only known by an IRC handle for... decades?) |
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| 06:39:29 | <cute-guest> | hello haskell : D |
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| 06:42:32 | <cute-guest> | oops |
| 06:43:32 | <cute-guest> | well its pretty late ovr here and so not a lot of people are on probably,, |
| 06:44:02 | <EvanR> | nobody here but us chicken schemes |
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| 06:44:20 | <cute-guest> | chickn schemes,, hmm |
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| 06:46:56 | <cute-guest> | do ya know anything abt effect systems? i think i made one but it probably wasnt v good,, do ya know which ones ppl like the most? |
| 06:47:41 | <cute-guest> | i saw this one called "capabilites" recently but,, when i downed |
| 06:47:47 | <cute-guest> | oops |
| 06:48:07 | <cute-guest> | when i tried using it it had a whole buncha dependencies |
| 06:48:41 | <cute-guest> | also,,,, whats,, chickn scheme |
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| 06:53:17 | <jreicher> | Chicken is a compiler for Scheme, which is a Lisp. |
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| 07:19:03 | <Enrico63> | tomsmeding, wow, doing ./hadrian/build and its taking ages, but most of all, GBs. Are 56G enough? :D |
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| 08:04:46 | <tomsmeding> | Enrico63: RAM or disk? :p |
| 08:05:08 | <tomsmeding> | my GHC build directory is 17G |
| 08:05:18 | <tomsmeding> | er, repository -- the _build directory is 11G |
| 08:05:39 | <tomsmeding> | GHC is big. :) |
| 08:06:27 | <Enrico63> | I meant disk. Yes, I've completed with ~45G left, I had ~56G |
| 08:07:09 | <Enrico63> | Now I'm starting ghci.. and that's compiling something else :/ |
| 08:08:57 | <Enrico63> | The next step is to understand/remember where in my config do I set that I want the Vi editing mode. |
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| 08:10:38 | <Enrico63> | Oh, .haskeline, right |
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| 08:15:21 | <Enrico63> | Opinion, if "cabal test" in libraries/haskeline fails (at runtime)... what have I done wrong? |
| 08:15:39 | <Enrico63> | ~Opinion~ Question |
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| 08:20:15 | <[exa]> | Enrico63: haskeline is touching terminal weirdness so there might be cases |
| 08:20:22 | <[exa]> | what's your system? |
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| 08:21:26 | <Enrico63> | ArchLinux |
| 08:22:27 | <Enrico63> | Let me clarify: I normally use vi editing mode in GHCi, and my Haskell set up is managed via GHCup. |
| 08:22:27 | <Enrico63> | Now I'm building it from source because I want to experiment precisely with haskeline, which has really poor support for vi editing mode. |
| 08:23:22 | <Enrico63> | This is literally all I've done today: |
| 08:23:23 | <Enrico63> | git clone https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc.git |
| 08:23:23 | <Enrico63> | cd ghc/ |
| 08:23:24 | <Enrico63> | git submodule update --init |
| 08:23:24 | <Enrico63> | ./boot |
| 08:23:25 | <Enrico63> | ./configure |
| 08:23:25 | <Enrico63> | ./hadrian/build -j8 |
| 08:23:26 | <Enrico63> | cd libraries/haskeline |
| 08:23:26 | <Enrico63> | cabal test |
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| 08:23:48 | <mauke> | wouldn't it be easier to experiment with haskeline in isolation first? |
| 08:25:38 | <[exa]> | well to try stuff in ghci you need to build ghci with the modified haskeline |
| 08:26:06 | <Enrico63> | mauke, how do I do that? |
| 08:26:09 | <[exa]> | still, don't they have a slightly less overblown test program? |
| 08:26:43 | <[exa]> | Enrico63: you can run haskeline in a completely stupid mode in a program that doesn't do anything, but the vi-style editing (and other things) should be moreless same as in ghci |
| 08:26:58 | <[exa]> | wait I should have a sensible one handy |
| 08:27:12 | <[exa]> | here https://github.com/exaexa/minihm |
| 08:27:42 | <tomsmeding> | for what it's worth, `cabal test` on haskeline master fails for me too |
| 08:28:38 | <Enrico63> | Happy it fails, it makes me feel normal, ahah |
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| 08:29:08 | <[exa]> | Quickcheck question: is there any good approach to generate test-cases for a program that should do edit merges (like git-merge or diff3 or so) ? |
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| 08:29:43 | <[exa]> | (even philosophically, what is the "property" to test there) |
| 08:30:00 | <tomsmeding> | if you can apply a diff, then `apply diff left == right`? |
| 08:30:05 | <[exa]> | that's for diff |
| 08:30:10 | <tomsmeding> | oh right |
| 08:30:25 | <[exa]> | diff is okay because composing patch and diff should kinda be an identity |
| 08:30:28 | <tomsmeding> | merge has no spec anyway |
| 08:30:41 | <tomsmeding> | merge is like "yolo if I can make it work it's probably fine" |
| 08:30:44 | <[exa]> | with diff3 you have this orig+mine+yours and it produces a merged thing |
| 08:30:52 | <[exa]> | so kinda wondering how to relate it to the originals |
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| 08:31:35 | <[exa]> | I could go the hard way and deconstruct the diff-zipping algorithm into a generator but that's more effort than I hoped for |
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| 08:32:23 | <[exa]> | hm maybe I generate a random merged file with conflicts, make the orig+mine+yours from that, and see what happens |
| 08:35:01 | <tomsmeding> | also even if you give merging a spec, if that spec includes behaviour of current conventional merge algorithms, then it's still insufficient to actually be able to trust it in practice |
| 08:35:40 | <tomsmeding> | because in code, changes are sometimes nonlocal, and merging will consider spacially distant changes to be logically unrelated |
| 08:35:47 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
| 08:36:24 | <tomsmeding> | so any property to prove/test about a merge algorithm will necessarily have to be lower-level than "it does the right thing" |
| 08:36:38 | <tomsmeding> | and include some of the arbitrary choices/heuristics made in the algorithm |
| 08:36:46 | <tomsmeding> | (like "how far is distant enough") |
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| 08:52:33 | <Enrico63> | [exa], wonderful, thanks!!! |
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| 08:58:43 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: yeah well aware of that |
| 08:59:14 | <[exa]> | spoiler: I got some stuff to merge that is so messed up that yakshaving a new mergetool will save an order of magnitude of effort |
| 08:59:57 | <tomsmeding> | O.o |
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| 09:00:04 | <tomsmeding> | my condolences |
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| 09:00:56 | <Enrico63> | [exa] 3 way merge, then ? |
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| 09:01:30 | <[exa]> | this is 3 large refactors all of which included complete reformat of the code |
| 09:01:38 | <[exa]> | (with incompatible formatters) |
| 09:02:08 | <tomsmeding> | reformat all versions with the same formatter now, and _then_ merge? |
| 09:02:24 | <tomsmeding> | also how are you even planning to attack that with a custom merge tool |
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| 09:03:24 | <tomsmeding> | merging two incompatible large refactors of a codebase sounds like a hopeless task for any automated system |
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| 09:47:42 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> [exa] Are you aware of mergiraf.org? |
| 09:48:10 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> Maybe it could help. |
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| 10:36:29 | <[exa]> | maralorn: that looks like quite a bit of overkill |
| 10:37:09 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: how is an off-the-shelf tool overkill but writing your own merge tool not |
| 10:37:35 | <[exa]> | no like, the amount of code there ain't small |
| 10:38:51 | <tomsmeding> | I'm curious what conflicts you have that are not solvable using a code formatter and manual conflict resolution, but for which writing your own merge tool is feasible |
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| 10:39:40 | <[exa]> | ah they depend on tree-sitter and tree matching, okay that's a fair shot |
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| 10:43:48 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: biocuration outputs, there's plenty of freetext there ("comments") which have to be merged sensibly as well |
| 10:44:33 | <tomsmeding> | ah I see |
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| 10:44:53 | <tomsmeding> | where possibly, if comments changed differently in both versions, it's fine to just keep both? |
| 10:45:21 | <tomsmeding> | which would be something that's not too hard to build but not done by existing merge tools |
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| 10:50:53 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: nah the plaintext changes are the main issue |
| 10:51:18 | <[exa]> | if these wouldn't be the problem I'd just forceformat everything |
| 10:52:43 | <[exa]> | hm for the closest picture imagine merging changes in a TeX paper where 2 mathematicians very zealous about tex macros have each spent a month working independently, one of them force-justifying stuff to 80chars and other one to 120chars |
| 10:53:08 | <[exa]> | nvm it's almost done :D |
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| 11:16:45 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: hope you're being paid for this |
| 11:17:17 | <tomsmeding> | and that there's a domain expert thoroughly checking the output of your merging process :p |
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| 11:18:59 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: for the TeX hypothetical you described, what I'd do is open the two side-to-side in vimdiff and manually manipulate both documents until they are at some point equal |
| 11:19:16 | <tomsmeding> | "manually" as in, using formatting/reflowing/regex tools, but otherwise manually eyeballing |
| 11:19:24 | <tomsmeding> | you can't auto-merge mathematical arguments |
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| 11:32:57 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> It might be overkill but it works great and I love that it exists |
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| 11:50:12 | <[exa]> | maralorn: yeah if this was pure source code it would probably just do it |
| 11:50:54 | <[exa]> | just curious, what does it do if the source code is invalid? |
| 11:51:05 | <[exa]> | (or if someone comments out half of the file or so) |
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| 12:05:13 | <[exa]> | anyway turns out that just cutting the source to pieces by spaces AND having a diff3 that ignores the space conflicts almost does it for me |
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| 13:11:03 | <tomsmeding> | :) |
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| 20:35:28 | <[exa]> | maralorn: re the merge yakshaving quest, in the end this kinda worked for me https://github.com/exaexa/werge |
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| 20:38:13 | <[exa]> | (there's still one issue, if there's a space-only conflict next to a mergeable non-space change, both end up as a conflict irrespectively of the "ignore space conflict" settings... so in my megamerge I fixed that with a bit of extra regex and now we're merged) |
| 20:40:27 | <[exa]> | without the options parser it's ~300LoC hack, I somehow like it |
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| 21:44:22 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: what does "use it accordingly" mean in this context :p |
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| 22:18:30 | <ii8> | Is there a way to download a tarball of a package from hackage.org that has a fixed hash? Maybe something like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cborg-0.2.10.0/cborg-0.2.10.0.tar.gz?index-state=2025-02-02T20:29:37Z |
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| 23:08:21 | <monochrom> | I only know how to split that into a set-index-state step and a download step. cabal update hackage.haskell.org,2025-02-02T20:29:37Z ; cabal get cborg-0.2.10.0 |
| 23:09:14 | <monochrom> | Oh oops it could have been cabal get --index-state=2025-02-02T20:29:37Z cborg-0.2.10.0 |
| 23:09:38 | <monochrom> | (`cabal get --help` was helpful) |
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| 23:14:57 | <ii8> | Ah but I don't have cabal. Cabal is what I'm trying to build and the bootstrap script is just downloading the tarballs and then checking the hashes |
| 23:15:04 | <ii8> | But the hashes on hackage don't seem to be stable |
| 23:15:40 | <ii8> | So I'd need something that I can just put on the download url |
| 23:16:04 | <ii8> | I'm trying to read the cabal source code to see how it does it, but there's a lot of it.. |
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| 23:18:17 | <ii8> | Oh, hackage actually claims that the tarball is never changed, so it must be the metadata then that is failing the hash |
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| 23:23:55 | <ii8> | Must have been a transient network error. ty monochrom |
| 23:25:40 | <geekosaur> | I was wondering, I'm running the bootstrap for 3.14 with ghc-9.8.2 and not getting any hash mismatches |
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| 23:26:07 | <geekosaur> | and master and 3.16-to-be are checked with every PR |
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| 23:28:35 | <geekosaur> | also what system/arch are you on that you need to bootstrap? |
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| 23:30:06 | <ii8> | Yea I wasn't getting mismatches either on x86_64 it was reported by someone on aarch64. But I think it was transient |
| 23:30:40 | <ii8> | I am packaging for void-linux on i686, x86_64, x86_64 musl libc, aarch64 and aarch64 musl |
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| 23:31:46 | <ii8> | If you want to have a look: https://github.com/void-linux/void-packages/pull/56112 |
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| 23:33:02 | <geekosaur> | interesting. I don't think we have access to any linux aarch64 builders |
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| 23:33:23 | <jackdk> | Is anyone else having trouble acquiring gnulib? I'm trying the `live-bootstrap/rootfs.py` script and getting `requests.exceptions.RequestException: [Errno Unable to download _ from ] any mirror or original` when trying to fetch gnulib-8e128r.tar.gz |
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| 23:34:54 | <geekosaur> | are you asking in the right channel? |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-07-13.