Logs on 2025-07-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:19:21 | <Square3> | One thing that seems popular in Haskell is to organize your modules in a way such there's a root module that pretty much re-exports all modules in the project. Also the root module is often accompanied by a nice usage guide. But how efficient is it to feed this big root module to the compiler? |
| 00:19:58 | <Square3> | ...when using the package in a project |
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| 00:23:33 | <Square3> | May be a nothing burger, it just hit me. |
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| 00:24:56 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> don’t really know Square3. From time to time I’ve seen people saying that explicitly declaring imports can speed up something or other |
| 00:25:27 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> * I think |
| 00:28:19 | <Square3> | Just checking |
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| 00:29:05 | <geekosaur> | explicit import lists can speed up symbol lookups by the compiler |
| 00:30:25 | <geekosaur> | having a top level module that exports the most useful stuff makes things easier for programmers using your module. they might lead to the compiler (or linker) having to do a little more work, but that won't impact runtime, only compile time. and in many cases won't be noticeable |
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| 00:33:27 | <geekosaur> | (I have to say that, if it had been up to me, `XMonad` wouldn't reexport `Graphics.X11.Xlib` and friends. that would be a couple hundred symbols most people don't care about and the ones who do know where to find them) |
| 00:34:15 | <geekosaur> | maybe over a thousand since it exports all the KeySyms and such as well |
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| 00:34:52 | <geekosaur> | which, well, with old-style keybinding some of those are useful |
| 00:35:07 | <geekosaur> | but in 2025 I think we want to encourage use of EZConfig instead |
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| 00:37:05 | <geekosaur> | that said, I think we'd want to keep the "XMonad exports everything you need" aspect because my config at last check imports 59 things from it 🙂 |
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| 00:37:14 | <geekosaur> | screw import lists 🙂 |
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| 00:55:53 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> import lists are indeed a pain, they impose a heavy cost for new modules |
| 00:56:36 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> as in, every time you create a module you are adding more boilerplate and maintenance work |
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| 01:07:11 | <geekosaur> | (xmonad is a window manager EDSL, so most of what you use is part of that EDSL, so 59 isn't unreasonable. I have a number of custom definitions in my config but they all use additional imports) |
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| 01:24:24 | <Axman6> | A discussion yesterday ended with me looking at the Crainlift project, have there been any proposals for a GHC backend targetting it? It looks like it could be easier to keep pace with than LLVM |
| 01:24:47 | <Axman6> | and possibly provide a GHC bootstrap mechanism |
| 01:25:49 | <Axman6> | The IR looks quite interesting, blocks within functions take arguments, which isn't something I've seen before |
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| 01:31:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Jack> geekosaur: To quote the GHC users guide: |
| 01:31:41 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/eQRWxUXNoxmVCyQGgYPVqLZB/uMdUmaYheJQ (4 lines) |
| 01:32:13 | <jackdk> | Cranelift is written in Rust, isn't it? So you still have a gnarly bootstrap |
| 01:32:56 | <geekosaur> | @Jack: only partly true, as it turns out. gjhc will export some things itself if marked INLINEABLE or SPECIALIZEABLE, for example |
| 01:32:56 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 01:33:03 | <geekosaur> | *ghc |
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| 01:33:37 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Jack: excellent reference. It doesn’t quantify the user-visible impact, I suspect that’s still quite small but I could be wrong |
| 01:34:10 | <geekosaur> | (or if they're small enough that ghc infers it can inline them) |
| 01:35:14 | <haskellbridge> | <Jack> That makes sense. I’m glad there’s some way to export your cake and eat it quickly too. |
| 01:35:56 | <geekosaur> | Axman6, jackdk: perhaps worse, you're still using LLVM underneath IIRC |
| 01:37:13 | <Axman6> | It seems ot be independent from LLVM? It's an alternative target for the rust compiler |
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| 04:55:38 | <asivitz> | I'm a little confused about how GHC chooses a linker on windows. GHCUP installs a msys2, but if I install a new lld via that msys2, it won't be picked up. B/c when GHCUP installs a GHC, it also installs a clang and a linker. And the GHC is configured to use that clang, and that clang will pick the lld in the same directory (I think?). So anyway, is there a non-hacky way to swap out the linker? |
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| 05:17:23 | <Square3> | geekosaur, thanks |
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| 05:54:57 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> GHC hardcodes what toolchain to use. You can edit that file manually |
| 05:55:24 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> It's awful that there is no interface for it |
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| 06:01:46 | <asivitz> | hm. so I guess I'm unsure what my options are. I'm getting linker errors trying to build the SDL2 bindings package; when it tries to link in the SDL2 lib I guess it includes some directives (e.g. ld.lld: error: -exclude-symbols:console_ansi_main is not allowed in .drectve) that were added in LLVM 15. But GHC 9.12 ships with LLVM 14 tools |
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| 14:16:44 | <milan> | Hello, is there a reason why we can't pattern match on IOError? |
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| 14:29:01 | <mauke> | it contains lots of implementation specific details that are not directly exposed to the user |
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| 14:31:35 | <EvanR> | view patterns gives you a way to pattern match if they only expose a set of observation functions |
| 14:32:36 | <EvanR> | or if it's bool functions, multiway if |
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| 14:37:02 | <milan> | EvanR: thank you for alternative! |
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| 14:40:38 | <milan> | mauke: Do I understand it correctly that it would need to look like `data IOError = NotFound String, String,..String` so value constructors would be really long and thus confusing? |
| 14:42:04 | <EvanR> | implementation specific details means that your program would only work on a subset of the platforms, if you wrote your code against one of their internal forms |
| 14:42:37 | <EvanR> | instead of a uniform interface like the one in Control.Exception |
| 14:43:46 | <milan> | Ah so it is something like abstraction for Windows, Linux and others.. Got it |
| 14:45:30 | <EvanR> | yeah it's an example of an abstract data type, the constructors aren't disclosed |
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| 14:45:54 | <EvanR> | so you can have different implementation options, or change the implementation |
| 14:46:04 | <EvanR> | and code hypothetically still works |
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| 14:50:13 | <milan> | I think I understand |
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| 14:59:03 | <mauke> | not just platforms, but also compilers/interpreters |
| 14:59:19 | <mauke> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-internal-9.1201.0/docs/src/GHC.Internal.IO.Exception.html#IOException |
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| 17:08:20 | <__monty__> | Is there any way to get paths relative to the file some code is in? |
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| 17:27:03 | <geekosaur> | if it's in a build tree then the functions in `Paths_<project>` will do it. once installed, "the file some code is in" becomes fuzzy |
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| 17:44:51 | <__monty__> | Added difficulty here is that this is more of a script, specifically a Shakefile. So I'd need something that works with runghc pretty much. |
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| 17:50:55 | <geekosaur> | I think the only way to get the location of the script in that case involves TH |
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| 17:56:58 | <__monty__> | Was afraid of that. |
| 18:00:25 | <dminuoso> | __monty__: Is the intent to maintain some asset files along your source code to reference within that same source code (say an image)? |
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| 18:09:40 | <glguy> | dolio: this branch seems to build cleanly on my mac; is it any better for you? https://github.com/glguy/HsOpenSSL/tree/modernize |
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| 18:21:57 | <__monty__> | dminuoso: In this case it's Dhall files (the types for the configuration the user can pass in) and Latex files (templates that are filled in from said configuration). |
| 18:22:39 | <dminuoso> | __monty__: extra-source-files perhaps? |
| 18:23:31 | <__monty__> | dminuoso: That's another Cabal option, no? |
| 18:23:50 | <dminuoso> | Yes. |
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| 18:25:01 | <__monty__> | So it has the same problem Paths_pkgname modules have, it doesn't help in the absence of cabal-install. |
| 18:25:52 | <dminuoso> | Well, with source-translated languages, I feel it is our obligation to provide one or more packaging/installation methods that cover these concerns.. |
| 18:26:15 | <dminuoso> | The moment you start adding non-code assets, you're already in "how do I package/ship this" territory. |
| 18:26:26 | <dminuoso> | Unless you include into the object files via TH. |
| 18:26:43 | <dolio> | glguy: Yeah, that builds cleanly here, too. |
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| 18:27:34 | <dolio> | Well, not completely cleanly, but none of the warnings seem to cause errors. |
| 18:28:06 | <__monty__> | But my currently desired way of packaging this is to have it all in the project directory. |
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| 18:33:20 | <sm> | __monty__ you could embed those files in the script, and if needed, write them out to a temp file or known directory at runtime |
| 18:34:05 | <dminuoso> | __monty__: So the "installation method" is to do `git clone`? |
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| 18:50:15 | <__monty__> | dminuoso: Sure. This is somewhat me poking at Shake and seeing how close to a make(1) replacement it can be. |
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| 18:52:36 | <__monty__> | sm: While that technically works I'm looking for a less chaotic method, it's already a lot of juggling of formats and templates. |
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| 19:04:13 | <dminuoso> | __monty__: Is this some internal work tool or something you want to share publically? |
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| 19:13:29 | <sm> | can you use the standard tricks shell scripts use to find their file location ? Analyse the command line, etc ? |
| 19:15:56 | <sm> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.21.0.0/docs/System-Environment.html#v:getExecutablePath or something |
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| 19:20:42 | <geekosaur> | doing it right is tricky: (a) sometimes you don't get a path, especially on non-Unix, so you have to do a PATH search yourself and fail if it wasn't on the path (b) it may be a symlink to the real program, so you may need to resolve those (good luck if it's Windows!) |
| 19:20:51 | <geekosaur> | and let's not even think about wrapper scripts |
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| 19:36:18 | <glguy> | dolio: could you share the warnings? I want to see if it's worth setting up an environment that reproduces them to then fix them |
| 19:38:16 | <dolio> | glguy: They all appear to be "return discards a 'const' qualifier" warnings. |
| 19:39:31 | <glguy> | Oh, ok. Last I'd looked GHC 's capi just wasn't written knowing C had qualifiers |
| 19:39:45 | <dolio> | Okay, yeah, it's probably that. |
| 19:40:26 | <dolio> | They all look like they're happening in auto-generated FFI files, so if there isn't some way to modify the FFI signature to make it generate a different signature, there's probably nothing you can do. |
| 19:41:41 | <dolio> | I guess there is Foreign.C.ConstPtr. Maybe that can do it? |
| 19:42:05 | <glguy> | Oh, when did base get that? |
| 19:43:01 | <glguy> | Since: base-4.18.0.0 |
| 19:43:13 | <glguy> | Cool! |
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| 20:02:33 | <__monty__> | dminuoso: For now it's internal. |
| 20:04:22 | <__monty__> | sm: I could try but wouldn't the executable be `shake`? |
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| 20:36:26 | <[exa]> | evening! |
| 20:38:05 | <[exa]> | is there any information about Selda maintainers? the official repo seems a bit dead and there's stuff that needs to be merged |
| 20:38:21 | <[exa]> | (most notably compat fixes) |
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| 21:20:00 | <glguy> | dolio: There's so much of HsOpenSSL that binds into old OpenSSL that I might just need to make my own very specific binding if I want to be free of all the old stuff |
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| 21:26:26 | <dolio> | glguy: Oh, was what you did not the end of the story? I guess it also depends on what you're actually using from it. |
| 21:26:53 | <glguy> | The library still uses a bunch of deprecated APIs. I hadn't removed enough C flags to see them all |
| 21:27:18 | <glguy> | It uses old APIs like RSA and DSA directly instead of working in the more uniform EVP API |
| 21:27:23 | <dolio> | Oh, okay. You forked from the one that disables all the warnings? |
| 21:27:39 | <glguy> | No, I started from master |
| 21:27:59 | <glguy> | My branch doesn't disable the warnings, it fixes them |
| 21:28:17 | <glguy> | and removes dependencies (and functionality) that relies on stuff that's deprecated |
| 21:28:34 | <dolio> | master does disable the warnings, I think. |
| 21:28:41 | <glguy> | future work would be to elaborate the functionality that's lost due to deprecation |
| 21:28:49 | <dolio> | https://github.com/haskell-cryptography/HsOpenSSL/pull/102 |
| 21:29:29 | <glguy> | disabling the pointer warnings is silly, those are all fixable |
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| 21:29:44 | <glguy> | disabling deprecated means it will completely break with new openssls |
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| 21:32:24 | <dolio> | Oh yeah. Okay. I saw the optc line and thought you'd removed the deprecation warning one. Yeah, that's the major problem. |
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| 21:47:52 | <dolio> | Anyhow, I'm sure it'd be appreciated if you actually fixed HsOpenSSL, but if it's down to rewriting the entire library vs. rewriting a small fraction that you need for the IRC client, I'd understand why you'd choose the latter. |
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| 21:49:13 | <dolio> | Unless the new, more uniform API just means that most of the library disappears or something. |
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| 21:53:18 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
| 21:53:20 | <glguy> | the new library will not be compatible with the old library; lots of types will change |
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| 22:02:47 | <dolio> | Yeah, maybe that's why it hasn't been done yet. It's basically a completely different library. |
| 22:03:17 | <dolio> | But, like, the current library has an expiration date. |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-07-24.