Logs on 2025-07-25 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:13:33 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> Does Cabal support GHC2024 yet? |
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| 00:26:45 | <jackdk> | I don't know. What does the changelog and/or the project issue tracker say? |
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| 00:29:49 | <geekosaur> | we added it in cabal 3.12 which corresponds to ghc 9.10.1 which is when GHC2024 was introduced |
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| 00:49:52 | <asivitz> | I'm wondering if someone familiar with Windows and Haskell could help me. I have a minimal reproduction of a linker error here: https://github.com/asivitz/windows_link_error It has a github action that produces the error, so it shows a build environment in case that might be where the issue stems from. |
| 00:52:10 | <asivitz> | It depends on the dear-imgui library, so it's possible there's a problem with that package. But it seems strange, and involves template haskell. |
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| 00:52:57 | <geekosaur> | you are either missing the imgui DLL or it's the wrong / incompatible version |
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| 00:56:27 | <asivitz> | My understanding is the haskell lib it builds the imgui lib. The repo has a submodule reference to imgui, and the sources are listed as cxx-sources |
| 00:56:29 | <geekosaur> | hilfy «cabal*validate-actions$» Z$ c++filt _ZN5ImGui15StyleColorsDarkEP10ImGuiStyle |
| 00:56:29 | <geekosaur> | ImGui::StyleColorsDark(ImGuiStyle*) |
| 00:58:09 | <asivitz> | (Also, on mac at least everything works great without installing any extra library) |
| 00:59:21 | <geekosaur> | "could not load object code", that's TH. I wonder if there's some odd interaction there |
| 01:00:48 | <asivitz> | Yea the error only seems to trigger when I have that setup of file 1 uses TH, which imports something from file 2, which has a reference to imgui |
| 01:02:45 | <geekosaur> | this might be more of a ghc question then. but possibly also cabal; you might try it with different cabal versions (3.12, 3.14, 3.16) to see if the behavior changes |
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| 01:04:33 | <asivitz> | I can't get it to build with cabal < 3.16 b/c of the clean bug on windows. And I've tried a couple ghcs (9.10 and 9.12). I can ask #ghc |
| 01:04:38 | <asivitz> | Thanks for taking a look |
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| 02:20:14 | <Square3> | Haddock isn't totally obvious. Seems easy to break if you insert the wrong space/control at a certain place? |
| 02:22:05 | <geekosaur> | ReST is pretty similar in that respect |
| 02:22:21 | <geekosaur> | markdown, unfortunately, plays pretty badly with source code |
| 02:22:50 | <geekosaur> | (you cannot simultaneously have a .md extension for markdown tools and a source file extension for compilers) |
| 02:23:36 | <geekosaur> | (and neither group is willing to be flexible about extensions) |
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| 02:26:40 | <Square3> | Gotcha, I guess I just need to figure it out. |
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| 04:49:41 | <Square3> | When using type families and let users of your library define them (mostly empty constructor types for my use case) I could not come up with a good name. type-key? |
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| 05:38:59 | <Axman6> | Is there an easy way to find reverse dependencies these days? I know stackage has a way to do it, but only for packages in stackage |
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| 05:43:23 | <probie> | Axman6: https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/reverse |
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| 05:48:04 | <Axman6> | Hmm, well I guess the package I was looking at has no reverse deps |
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| 06:03:30 | <jackdk> | https://packdeps.haskellers.com/reverse/lens, but there's now also a "reverse dependencies" section and a details link on individual package pages |
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| 07:50:17 | <absence> | I'm running into problems similar to this contrived example recently, i.e. constraints on higher-ranked types: https://play.haskell.org/saved/rGQBg9cb Are there better ways to solve them than this? https://play.haskell.org/saved/pG1IGTMm |
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| 07:56:39 | <Leary> | absence: Sure: rename `Combine` `&`. |
| 07:56:50 | <Leary> | Otherwise, it's what I'd do. |
| 07:57:33 | <absence> | Leary: Do you know if it's already defined in a common package? |
| 07:57:42 | <Leary> | Not that I'm aware of. |
| 07:59:48 | <Leary> | You can also avoid writing it out twice if you want: https://play.haskell.org/saved/pG1IGTMm |
| 08:00:05 | <Leary> | Err, forgot to fork it: https://play.haskell.org/saved/8fkdZkKQ |
| 08:01:32 | <absence> | Leary: That's a nice trick, thanks! |
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| 08:09:28 | <merijn> | oh, you can do that more directly/explicitly |
| 08:09:41 | <merijn> | But I forgot the extension name, I might have an ancient gist of it |
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| 08:11:39 | <merijn> | ok, yeah, you want ConstraintKinds and TypeFamilies |
| 08:12:53 | <merijn> | You can simply write a type family combining your constraints straightup |
| 08:13:10 | <Leary> | It needs to be partially applied. |
| 08:14:04 | <merijn> | oh, might not even need TypeFamilies |
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| 08:18:57 | <lortabac> | can't you apply the constraint tuple directly? |
| 08:20:03 | <lortabac> | oh I see |
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| 08:21:15 | <merijn> | I was trying to make another example, but I don't understand what test is doing |
| 08:21:18 | <merijn> | *test1 |
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| 08:21:37 | <merijn> | it's basically const? |
| 08:22:09 | <lortabac> | I don't think it matters much what test1 does. IIUC the point of the example is the type application |
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| 08:22:52 | <merijn> | Well it matters, because I'm trying to make an example with explicit Constraints and I dunno how to change the type because I don't understand what it's doing |
| 08:26:11 | <merijn> | Ah, I just discovered a fun limitation xD |
| 08:26:22 | <merijn> | Apparently @ application doesn't support Constraint |
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| 08:29:50 | <merijn> | absence: So my idea won't save you if you wanna use TypeApplications, but just in case it happens to give you inspiration: Constraints are just type level families that you can compute with type level functions: https://gist.github.com/merijn/39dc86e345e87276c523 |
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| 08:30:22 | <merijn> | Similar abuse: https://gist.github.com/merijn/6130082 |
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| 08:34:23 | <Leary> | merijn: That technique is more about escaping the unordered, open world of instances for (ordered) closed type families; I don't see how it helps here. Also, you would want to use `Unsatisfiable` for those errors these days. |
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| 08:34:59 | <Leary> | Re type applications to constraints, it seems to work fine? https://play.haskell.org/saved/Efh4MP7v |
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| 08:38:44 | <merijn> | Leary: Yes, I know about Unsatisfiable, that gist was the reason I proposed adding such a thing to GHC :p |
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| 09:11:17 | <ethereal_> | I'm currently reading through the lyah book and this is one of the examples |
| 09:11:21 | <ethereal_> | findKey key = foldr (\(k,v) acc -> if key == k then Just v else acc) Nothing |
| 09:11:59 | <ethereal_> | for finding the corresponding value to a key and wrapping it in a Maybe v |
| 09:12:20 | <ethereal_> | but I don't get why the author used foldr instead of perhaps foldl in this case |
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| 09:13:26 | <ethereal_> | as far as i understood list are structured 1:2:3:4:[] so it seems to me that it is much more "expensive" to go from right to left instead of the other way around |
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| 09:23:04 | <Leary> | @src foldr |
| 09:23:04 | <lambdabot> | foldr f z [] = z |
| 09:23:04 | <lambdabot> | foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs) |
| 09:23:27 | <Leary> | ethereal_: Operationally, they both go left-to-right, just with different association. |
| 09:29:44 | <ethereal_> | Leary: oh, so technically it would be irrelevant whether to use foldr or foldl? |
| 09:30:43 | <vpan> | ethereal_: as a fellow beginner I've revisited the question of which fold to use many times. ;) For the short version read the beginning of the Conclusion section - https://wiki.haskell.org/Foldr_Foldl_Foldl%27 . For a more elaborate explanation read the whole wiki page and/or https://github.com/hasura/graphql-engine/pull/2933#discussion_r328821960 . |
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| 09:32:06 | <ethereal_> | vpan: thanks a lot, will read |
| 09:33:02 | <jreicher> | The conclusion is really the most important point. The choice is actually between lazy foldr and strict foldl. A lazy foldl is pointless. |
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| 09:33:21 | <ethereal_> | mhmm i see |
| 09:33:31 | <jreicher> | So you can usually figure out if you want lazy or strict, and then the direction is a consequence. |
| 09:34:35 | <ethereal_> | alright, makes sense |
| 09:40:12 | <[exa]> | ethereal_: btw one design decision, foldr can "stream" (i.e. you can have many maps and foldrs and filters connected together and they can work in parallel), foldl can not because it has to process the last element of the list ot be able to give out a value |
| 09:40:39 | <[exa]> | (in turn foldl won't work on infinite lists) |
| 09:42:42 | <ethereal_> | [exa]: i see. I knew about the restriction to finite lists for foldl which makes sense. but i did not know about the stream property |
| 09:43:47 | <jreicher> | Strictness specifies an evaluation order, whereas anything lazy can be "reordered" |
| 09:44:09 | <jreicher> | (Doesn't necessarily mean the reordering will be beneficial though; only that it's possible) |
| 09:44:15 | <[exa]> | ethereal_: it's useful to try implementing `map` and `filter` and `group` with foldr |
| 09:45:40 | <ethereal_> | [exa]: thanks for the tip, i will give it a try |
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| 09:45:49 | <[exa]> | among other, you might notice that if you have function with the usual list recursion pattern, such as `f [] = something, f (x:xs) = otherthing x xs`, this is essentially the same as `foldr otherthing something` |
| 09:46:16 | <[exa]> | kinda makes foldr a "universal patternmatch" for lists |
| 09:46:39 | <ethereal_> | makes sense |
| 09:46:42 | <[exa]> | (similarly check out `maybe` or `either`) |
| 09:46:57 | <[exa]> | :t maybe |
| 09:46:58 | <lambdabot> | b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b |
| 09:47:21 | <[exa]> | the 1st and 2nd arguments correspond to handling of the `Nothing` and `Just a` cases, respectively |
| 09:48:18 | <ethereal_> | hmm |
| 09:48:55 | <ethereal_> | i read about it, but so far i only know that they are used to handle cases where in some edge cases there is nothing to be returned |
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| 09:52:12 | <[exa]> | ethereal_: ah okay no worries then |
| 09:53:04 | <[exa]> | ethereal_: like list definition says "either we're at end or there's this item and more", Maybe definition says "either there's nothing or there's just this one item" |
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| 09:53:55 | <[exa]> | so wanted to kinda draw a bit of parallel how the data definitions, functions that interpret them, and the "universal patternmatch" functions (foldr, maybe) correspond to each other |
| 09:58:07 | <ethereal_> | [exa]: oh alr, will keep this in mind. Right now this just sounds like magic to me :D |
| 09:58:24 | <ethereal_> | but your explanations makes sense |
| 09:58:41 | <[exa]> | ah ok, hope it helps :) |
| 09:59:34 | <ethereal_> | [exa]: no sure does. thanks :) |
| 10:00:17 | <ski> | (`f (x:xs) = otherthing x (f xs)') |
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| 10:22:29 | <[exa]> | ski: oh true, thanks |
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| 10:26:00 | <Guest64> | hey there, I still have some probs installing ghcup on my windows work pc. I have problems with wget via ghcup, but not if I use wget standalone. ghcup with curl does not work either. here's the error: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/2T2VFqkl |
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| 10:26:30 | <Guest64> | i had to download the ghcup-0.0.9.yaml manually already |
| 10:26:43 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Are you in China? |
| 10:27:01 | <Guest64> | nope |
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| 10:27:36 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> ok |
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| 10:27:51 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Company network? |
| 10:28:01 | <Guest64> | yes |
| 10:28:13 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> kinda the same thing xD |
| 10:28:19 | <Guest64> | hahaha thx.. but downloading via browser works |
| 10:28:29 | <Guest64> | when using the url |
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| 10:28:50 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Ask your administrator |
| 10:28:52 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> not much we can do about it |
| 10:28:57 | <Guest64> | ok thank you :) |
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| 13:22:47 | <milan> | Hello! I have read that haskell doesn't check if instances obey typeclass laws. Why is that so? Wouldn't it be useful? |
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| 13:27:30 | <[exa]> | milan: it's pretty hard to check tbh, in some cases I'd say undecidable |
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| 13:29:35 | <int-e> | Yeah these things very quickly become undecidable, and Haskell is not a theorem proving language, it's a programming language. |
| 13:30:36 | <int-e> | In a theorem prover, this wouldn't happen automatically either but you'd get proof obligations. (With different terminology, e.g. locales in Isabelle.) |
| 13:31:06 | <[exa]> | milan: notably, the "practical" part of the laws, which is 1] checkable quite easily and 2] absolutely trashes everything if disobeyed, are the instance method types |
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| 13:32:09 | <[exa]> | usually if people need more checking for their classes, they just try to encode the applicable checks into the types |
| 13:33:34 | <[exa]> | (and there's effort to encode the checks there, e.g. dependent haskell, but there's also reasons why dependent haskell is taking forever to get finished/adopted by mainstream) |
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| 13:34:35 | <[exa]> | milan: did you try Agda? |
| 13:35:01 | <milan> | What are "the checks" here? Is this some kind of extension where I specify something like "unit tests" in other languages? |
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| 13:35:30 | <milan> | [exa]: No not yet. |
| 13:36:03 | <[exa]> | milan: "check" very generically as something that actually verifies e.g. the functor identity laws |
| 13:36:19 | <[exa]> | notably unit tests won't quite do it |
| 13:37:49 | <milan> | Yeah I get why unit tests won't solve problem. It is because I can have `fmap f (MyInt x) = if x == 1234567 then MyInt f (x+1) else MyInt (f x)` |
| 13:38:53 | <[exa]> | yeah, basically, extensional testing (this kind of testing where you throw values at it and see if they go right) doesn't quite cover it for infinite datatypes |
| 13:39:54 | <[exa]> | what some people do is that you can make a program to which you throw the required types and laws and it generates the law-obeying code for you, if specified sufficiently well (this sounds ugly lot like LLMs but they are absolutely not, there are exact methods for this) |
| 13:39:55 | <milan> | [exa]: Yeah and I guess there is no other alternative? |
| 13:40:28 | <[exa]> | see e.g. djinn, you essentially give it a type and it reports (hopefully the only most general) implementation |
| 13:40:34 | <[exa]> | let's check |
| 13:41:11 | <[exa]> | @djinn (a,b) -> (a->c) -> (b,c) |
| 13:41:12 | <lambdabot> | f (a, b) c = (b, c a) |
| 13:41:33 | <int-e> | . o O ( let's check first ) |
| 13:41:35 | <int-e> | :t first |
| 13:41:36 | <lambdabot> | Arrow a => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d) |
| 13:41:52 | <int-e> | (different argument order, and slightly more general) |
| 13:42:15 | <int-e> | oh |
| 13:42:21 | <int-e> | sorry, I missed the swap |
| 13:42:31 | <[exa]> | milan: this approach kindof prevents this issue of "programmer has smuggled an evil corner case into the program" |
| 13:42:34 | <[exa]> | int-e: ah np |
| 13:43:35 | <milan> | Hmm... |
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| 13:44:20 | <milan> | THank you all for info |
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| 13:44:52 | <[exa]> | milan: just curious, did you have any course on enumerability on complexity (mainly, halting problem) |
| 13:46:18 | <[exa]> | (in short, what's stupid on computer science is that most problems where you try to prove that programs have properties basically reduce to solving something of the complexity of the halting problem... which unfortunately does not solve) |
| 13:48:12 | <int-e> | [exa]: sorry, I saw a pun :P |
| 13:48:26 | <milan> | milan: I had no official courses. I am learning on my own, and yes I heard about halting problem. And I was thinking if this is the case. |
| 13:50:33 | <[exa]> | yeah, it's not exactly the case as halting, but very similar issue indeed |
| 13:50:53 | <[exa]> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem |
| 13:51:13 | <milan> | The idea is funny. I understand it like there can't be "process" by which you can analyze some "description of calculation" and find what result it will produce. Yet! We humans look at "source code of factorial program" and see that it will or will not produce correct result. |
| 13:51:57 | <[exa]> | yeah, the borderline there is cloudy |
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| 13:52:54 | <[exa]> | some properties are indeed trivial, e.g. in Haskell "the program can't access IO" implies "the program won't write files" ("... unless the runtime does a mistake") |
| 13:54:13 | <[exa]> | the typesystems are actually an example of such properties which are quite practical, relatively useful and easy to prove |
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| 13:59:37 | <milan> | Guyz... which language should I learn after I get bored with haskell? Isabelle, Agda maybe others? |
| 14:00:06 | <glguy> | C++ - go for the other extreme |
| 14:01:28 | <milan> | I am affraid of C++ when I read about it I feel "feature creep" and it evokes "javascript" feeling in me. I hate Javascript..to be honest. |
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| 14:05:10 | <milan> | I did my fair share of programming in imperative languages. They all have some rough corners but Javascript is trully an abomination. Its amalgamation of bad decisions to the point I classify it as eso lang. |
| 14:05:35 | <milan> | C++ is probably of same kind. |
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| 14:07:12 | <lxsameer> | hey friends, I have a type like this `newtype Result t = Result {getResult :: Either ErrorList t}` in order to create a ResultT, which declaration is correct? `data ResultT m a = Result {getResultT :: Either ErrorList (m a)}` vs `data ResultT m a = Result {getResultT :: m (Either ErrorList a)}`? |
| 14:08:35 | <[exa]> | milan: some assembly never bad, nasm is great with macros ;) |
| 14:08:54 | <[exa]> | milan: do you know prolog? |
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| 14:09:27 | <[exa]> | anyway c++ is completely different from javascript, the fact that the syntax looks alike is.....deceiving |
| 14:10:27 | <[exa]> | lxsameer: it's useful to name the accessors of transformers with "run" because then it clicks that you're supposed to "run it in the other monad" |
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| 14:12:45 | <[exa]> | lxsameer: in this case, can you get the ErrorList without executing a single action in the `m` ? |
| 14:13:03 | <milan> | [exa]: I heard about it.. no sadly only imparative languages, and my first functional is Haskell, I heard about Lisp (not sure if I should spent time on it) |
| 14:13:57 | <[exa]> | milan: lisp (or scheme) is nice to see... recommend this https://docs.scheme.org/tyscheme/index-Z-H-1.html |
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| 14:19:01 | <lxsameer> | [exa]: thank you, noted. good question, hmmm errorlist would be a possible result of that action |
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| 15:18:35 | <lxsameer> | for someone with very little experience with effect systems, which one do you recommend? effectful or bluefin? |
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| 15:22:52 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I think theyre equivalent in usage complexity |
| 15:23:29 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> If you want to implement your own effects than idk how that looks in bluefin, but in effectful it can go from easy to really hard |
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| 15:25:48 | <lxsameer> | magic_rb: ahhhh, that's what I'm trying to avoid |
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| 17:15:14 | <carbolymer> | hackage choking atm? |
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| 17:15:34 | <carbolymer> | cabal update seems to be stuck for me |
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| 17:20:38 | <geekosaur> | it succeeded for me a few minutes ago fwiw |
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| 17:48:42 | <monochrom> | Belated about two different languages/semantics having the same syntax: I taught both Haskell and Curry in the same course so they have the same syntax but opposite semantics. >:) |
| 17:49:10 | <monochrom> | (The real reason is that I wanted to teach both FP and LP but I couldn't be bothered with Prolog.) |
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| 18:34:56 | <__monty__> | How different is Prolog from Curry? |
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| 18:36:57 | <monochrom> | I would not be proud of teaching Prolog. I would be proud of teaching Curry. |
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| 20:24:33 | <drlkf> | hey, would anyone be willing to give me a hackage endorsement? i can provide my github profile and a package i'd like to upload |
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| 20:44:27 | <[exa]> | drlkf: any issue sharing the package publicly? (#haskell crowd grabs popcorn) |
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| 21:17:24 | EvanR | looks around at the "crowd" |
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| 21:31:33 | <[exa]> | EvanR: everyone's got their mouths full of popcorn, they can't talk |
| 21:31:59 | EvanR | puts phone on silent |
| 21:31:59 | <monochrom> | haha |
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| 23:59:25 | <drlkf> | [exa]: sure i can: https://github.com/drlkf/megaparsec-utils/ |
All times are in UTC on 2025-07-25.