Logs on 2025-08-03 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:08 | <Unicorn_Princess> | the complications from the separation currently aren't too bad, really, but it feels kinda dirty |
| 00:00:31 | <glguy> | The reason to have two separate types would be if you were going to write functions that only generated things in Atom on could only handle things in Atom |
| 00:00:37 | <glguy> | or maybe you want an eval :: Expr -> Atom |
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| 00:00:54 | <glguy> | if you don't have a reason to distinguish Expr and Atom then you can merge them into one type |
| 00:01:06 | <Unicorn_Princess> | hrm |
| 00:02:25 | <Unicorn_Princess> | i could also go even further - have a separate Operation ADT, like data NAry = Sum | Prod, data Binary = Pow, and then data Exrp = BinExp Binary Expr Expr | NExp NAry [Expr].. |
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| 00:04:10 | <Unicorn_Princess> | i just don't know which will hurt most/least down the line. all of the approaches would work tho, hence having trouble choosing |
| 00:04:43 | <Unicorn_Princess> | i think for now i'll try putting everything into a single Expr type, since it's the most naive/simple approach, and see how that works out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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| 00:05:24 | <glguy> | just stick to the simplest thing first and then make it more complicated when you realize that you need to be |
| 00:06:50 | <Unicorn_Princess> | yeah that's my thinking |
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| 05:14:49 | <sm> | 👍🏻 |
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| 08:24:02 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, I have a transformer monad FooT m a, what would be the conventional way to create a generic function that transforms the inner monad m to n? Right now, i have a function that I specialize for different types of m and n |
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| 08:30:20 | <Leary> | lxsameer: What's stopping you from writing a function polmorphic in the monads? |
| 08:31:51 | <lxsameer> | like foo :: m a -> n a? |
| 08:32:26 | <c_wraith> | Leary: you'd have something that looks a lot like https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/mmorph-1.2.1/docs/Control-Monad-Morph.html#v:hoist |
| 08:32:31 | <Leary> | Like `mapFooT :: (m a -> n b) -> FooT m a -> FooT n b` or `hmapFooT :: (forall x. m x -> n x) -> FooT m a -> FooT n a`. |
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| 08:32:59 | <c_wraith> | Note that it's polytypic, so leaning on the library doesn't give you any implementation tools |
| 08:33:37 | <lxsameer> | c_wraith: cheers, I rather learn how to do it, it seems it's a gap in my knowledge |
| 08:33:53 | <lxsameer> | Leary: but m a -> n b is kinda immposible |
| 08:34:10 | <lxsameer> | cause I don't know how to extract a from a generic monad m |
| 08:34:12 | <c_wraith> | err. sorry, highlighted the wrong person. But you've sorted it out |
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| 08:34:38 | <Leary> | Which kind of mapping function you need depends on the details of the transformer. The latter is also impossible if the transformer isn't functorial in the monad. |
| 08:37:20 | <lxsameer> | so basically, there's no generic way to write that mapping function, did I get it right? |
| 08:38:51 | <Leary> | Well, there kinda is: the same way you write (or the GHC instance deriver) writes `Functor` instances, when it's possible. This is just another kind of `fmap`, so it should be quite mechanical. |
| 08:40:42 | <lxsameer> | Leary: ah i see, thank you |
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| 10:06:04 | <euouae> | Hello |
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| 10:06:57 | <euouae> | Hey all |
| 10:07:30 | <euouae> | Oops (said hi twice) I'm trying to write an app that also comes with some library files. How do I deal with the x.y.z.w versioning of cabal? |
| 10:08:40 | <lxsameer> | euouae: what libraries? and what versioning are you referring to? the cabal version? or dependency versions? |
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| 10:10:31 | <euouae> | yeah the cabal version |
| 10:10:38 | <euouae> | the libraries are the src/*.hs files |
| 10:11:12 | <lxsameer> | use hpack |
| 10:11:45 | <lxsameer> | and for cabal version you provide a minimum version that you want to support in your cabal file or package file (in case of hpack) |
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| 10:12:47 | <euouae> | oh no, what I'm asking is, how should I set my own package's version |
| 10:13:11 | <euouae> | The x.y.z.w version is explained for a library (major minor patch etc) but it's not clear what it means (if anything) for an app + library |
| 10:13:34 | <euouae> | cabal works for me, I'm not sure if I need hpack |
| 10:14:03 | <lxsameer> | hpack is just a handy tool, you will still use cabal, it just generate the cabal file for you. |
| 10:14:29 | <lxsameer> | if you want to to distribute your app and library together, highly recommend using the same version for both |
| 10:15:22 | <euouae> | the same version of what? |
| 10:16:13 | <euouae> | I'm talking about the version: field of the .cabal file for a project with a `library` and an `executable`... |
| 10:16:25 | <lxsameer> | what version are you talking about then? |
| 10:16:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Sometimes you can think of a binary as a library with a weird linkage. Especially evident in command-line interfaces where someone at some point will want to use you in a script - then you can use the version to signify breakage as usual for this use-case |
| 10:16:44 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Otherwise you can just put whatever |
| 10:17:46 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I think most of my binaries are at a perpetual 0.1.0.0 |
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| 10:21:32 | <euouae> | lxsameer: I've specified multiple times |
| 10:21:45 | <euouae> | You have a project.cabal file. It has a version: field. That one. |
| 10:22:09 | <euouae> | Morj, hm... fair |
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| 10:38:29 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> euouae, are you wondering how to pick PVP-compliant version numbers for an application ? |
| 10:41:14 | <euouae> | If that's a thing? |
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| 10:42:41 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> A package that provides both apps and libraries (typically one of each) is pretty common. A release of this package will have a version that applies to both the app and library (like lxsameer said). There’s no sensible way to give them different versions in that scenario I think. |
| 10:44:20 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> When I’m releasing a package like that, I consider both the API of the library and the UI/UX of the app. PVP is less formal for an app, but you can pretty much apply the same principle. |
| 10:44:45 | <euouae> | Oh is that what he said? I thought that he said that the cabal program that built the app should be the same version as the lib |
| 10:44:48 | <euouae> | I see now, my bad |
| 10:45:10 | <euouae> | Fair enough, I'll try to follow PVP |
| 10:46:17 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I don’t do PVP exactly, but the same general idea. If there’s a user-visible breaking change, that’s a major version bump, etc. |
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| 11:07:18 | <euouae> | okay got it |
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| 11:15:41 | <Ezic> | @hoogle fmap |
| 11:15:41 | <lambdabot> | Prelude fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b |
| 11:15:41 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b |
| 11:15:41 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.Instances fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b |
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| 11:18:46 | <Ezic> | > fix (\f x -> x * f (x-1)) 5 |
| 11:18:53 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core: Time limit exceeded |
| 11:19:28 | <Ezic> | > fix (\f x -> if x == 0 then 1 else x * f (x-1)) 5 |
| 11:19:29 | <lambdabot> | 120 |
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| 12:11:55 | <fizbin> | Is anyone still using stack for new projects, or is that now considered obsoleted by improvements that have been made to cabal since stack was created? |
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| 14:05:21 | <lxsameer> | folks, is it possible to inspect the AST of a haskell function or datatype? |
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| 15:02:12 | <geekosaur> | only from Template Haskell unless you've derived `Generic` |
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| 15:15:49 | <lxsameer> | cheers |
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| 17:06:02 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> fizbin: heck yes, heck no |
| 17:08:28 | <yin> | > let fyx f = foldr ($) (fyx f) [f] in fyx (\f x -> if x < 1 then 1 else x * f (pred x)) 5 |
| 17:08:29 | <lambdabot> | 120 |
| 17:09:04 | <yin> | origami <3 |
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| 20:30:22 | <yin> | let's say we have `fix f = foldr ($) (fix f) (pure f)`. how does haskell know how to resolve the type for pure? (sorry for probably bad english) |
| 20:31:48 | <sprout> | :t id |
| 20:31:49 | <lambdabot> | a -> a |
| 20:32:00 | <sprout> | :t foldr ($) (fix f) (pure f) |
| 20:32:01 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:32:02 | <lambdabot> | Ambiguous occurrence ‘f’ |
| 20:32:02 | <lambdabot> | It could refer to |
| 20:32:15 | <sprout> | oh right |
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| 20:32:22 | <geekosaur> | :t \f -> foldr ($) (fix f) (pure f) |
| 20:32:23 | <lambdabot> | (a -> a) -> a |
| 20:32:32 | <sprout> | +1 |
| 20:33:35 | <mauke> | :t foldr |
| 20:33:36 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b |
| 20:33:46 | <mauke> | :t pure |
| 20:33:47 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => a -> f a |
| 20:35:07 | <yin> | i can see that pure @((Applicative f, Foldable f) => f a) |
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| 20:35:23 | <mauke> | yeah, that's weird |
| 20:35:48 | <geekosaur> | :t foldr ($) |
| 20:35:49 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => a -> t (a -> a) -> a |
| 20:36:13 | <mauke> | :t let fix f = foldr ($) (fix f) (pure f) in fix |
| 20:36:14 | <lambdabot> | (a -> a) -> a |
| 20:36:31 | <yin> | what is t? |
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| 20:36:45 | <geekosaur> | (->) |
| 20:36:57 | <yin> | hm... |
| 20:37:25 | <yin> | i'm not so sure |
| 20:37:27 | <geekosaur> | because we're folding with ($) and that's function application |
| 20:37:42 | <mauke> | :t let fix f = foldr ($) (fix f) (_ f) in fix |
| 20:37:45 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:37:45 | <lambdabot> | • Found hole: _ :: t1 -> [a1 -> a1] |
| 20:37:45 | <lambdabot> | Where: ‘t1’, ‘a1’ are rigid type variables bound by |
| 20:37:52 | <mauke> | that's [] |
| 20:38:03 | <geekosaur> | moreah, sorry |
| 20:38:08 | <geekosaur> | *ah |
| 20:38:11 | <yin> | yeah i think it's [] |
| 20:38:17 | <yin> | but how does haskell infer [] ? |
| 20:38:36 | <mauke> | :t let fix f = foldr ($) (fix f) (Just f) in fix |
| 20:38:37 | <lambdabot> | (a -> a) -> a |
| 20:39:06 | <mauke> | someone's defaulting at me |
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| 20:39:21 | <yin> | > let fix f = foldr ($) (fix f) (Just f) in fix (\f x -> if x < 1 then 1 else x * f (pred x)) 5 |
| 20:39:22 | <lambdabot> | 120 |
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| 20:39:58 | <yin> | > let fix f = foldr ($) (fix f) (Right f) in fix (\f x -> if x < 1 then 1 else x * f (pred x)) 5 |
| 20:40:00 | <lambdabot> | 120 |
| 20:40:08 | <yin> | > let fix f = foldr ($) (fix f) [f] in fix (\f x -> if x < 1 then 1 else x * f (pred x)) 5 |
| 20:40:10 | <lambdabot> | 120 |
| 20:40:17 | <yin> | i'm confused |
| 20:40:59 | <yin> | i get why all of these work, just not why [] is inferred |
| 20:41:44 | <monochrom> | Yeah there was extra defaulting going on there. Normally it should be "ambiguous t0' in Foldable t0 and Applicative t0. |
| 20:42:17 | <monochrom> | If you put it in a file and load the file, you get the ambiguity error. |
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| 20:44:18 | <yin> | oh weird |
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| 20:44:42 | <mauke> | :t map pure [] |
| 20:44:43 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => [f a] |
| 20:44:46 | <mauke> | > map pure [] |
| 20:44:48 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:44:48 | <lambdabot> | • Ambiguous type variables ‘f0’, |
| 20:44:48 | <lambdabot> | ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M68719521878... |
| 20:45:17 | <yin> | why does ghci accept it if you write it manually but not when :l ? |
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| 20:45:43 | <c_wraith> | ghci has extra defaulting rules to pin types down |
| 20:45:59 | <yin> | weird |
| 20:47:32 | <mauke> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/ghci.html#type-defaulting-in-ghci |
| 20:47:32 | <c_wraith> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/ghci.html#extension-ExtendedDefaultRules If you want to see what the docs have to say |
| 20:47:43 | <mauke> | jinx |
| 20:48:09 | <c_wraith> | oh no. I am too slow. |
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| 20:50:44 | <yin> | why is this so inconsistent with standard module loading? |
| 20:51:13 | <yin> | is there a reason? |
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| 20:52:10 | <c_wraith> | It's about making ghci do *something* without explicit type annotations in a lot more cases. |
| 20:52:28 | <c_wraith> | occasionally it's confusing, but most of the time it's what you wanted anyway |
| 20:54:16 | <c_wraith> | I find the occasional confusion a lot better than all the extra typing to add explicit annotations would be. Mostly because it happens like one a year, but I enter expressions in ghci a lot more frequently. |
| 20:55:26 | <c_wraith> | Heck, I've even used -XExtendedDefaultRules in a module that included a lot of tests of polymorphic functions being passed literals. Because there were constraints aside from the few specified on the types of the literals, every single one would have required a type annotation without the extension |
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| 20:56:05 | <c_wraith> | With the extension, they just defaulted to Integer and things worked. |
| 20:56:06 | <yin> | ah, i have `:seti -Wno-type-defaults` on my .ghci so i didn't even get the warning. with the warning it makes more sense |
| 20:56:28 | <monochrom> | It is considered more "user-friendly" if REPL behaviour deviates from production code behaviour. >:) |
| 20:56:41 | <yin> | monochrom: heh |
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| 20:58:09 | <monochrom> | If you do so much as entering `[]` or `print []` at the REPL, people freak out with "OMG why is it an ambiguity error for such a trivial case why can't it just print out "[]" why can't the computer just DWIM???!!!" |
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| 21:02:11 | <yin> | -XNoTrainingWheels |
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| 21:04:09 | <yin> | ^would include polymorphic map yes please thank you |
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| 21:47:50 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
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| 22:02:05 | <sshine> | I'm writing some Haskell for the first time in 3.5 years. I thought I'd let the AI help me get started, and I quickly found out: if it's not going to be pretty, why even bother writing it in Haskell. https://gist.github.com/sshine/888a188f591c922018bf0dacda9f0fb2 |
| 22:05:01 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Unsurprisingly LLMs are ass at writing code |
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| 22:15:31 | <yin> | sshine: i think your mistake was trying to use AI to write haskell |
| 22:16:22 | <glguy> | Some people, when confronted with a problem, think “I know, I’ll use [AI].” Now they have two problems. |
| 22:17:04 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 22:18:24 | <yin> | glguy: https://claude.ai/share/ee3ac6e0-4d68-4863-8035-04c49e7aa2a1 |
| 22:18:44 | <yin> | i think it's finally becoming self-aware |
| 22:19:49 | <yin> | sshine: "The joke works particularly well because AI problems can be quite slippery - unlike a broken regex that simply doesn't match what you expect, AI might give you plausible-sounding but incorrect information, or work great in testing but fail in subtle ways in production." - Claude AI |
| 22:24:39 | <geekosaur> | neh, it's just more kn owledge. it's not capable of reflecting on it, though |
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| 22:29:26 | <yin> | https://claude.ai/share/3420b044-6430-4a80-96af-f369770493ec this was actually an interesting read :D |
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| 22:30:46 | <yin> | > Maybe the real insight is that the most powerful tools require us to become more sophisticated users, not less. The "second problem" is often: how do I stay human while benefiting from inhuman capabilities? |
| 22:30:47 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:101: error: parse error on input ‘,’ |
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| 22:31:12 | <yin> | great timing, lambdabot |
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| 22:31:52 | <geekosaur> | what timing? you fed it a leading "> " |
| 22:33:08 | <yin> | geekosaur: i was jokingly personifying the bot as being aware of its comedic timing |
| 22:34:40 | <yin> | i didn't mean to trigger it, but it was so appropriately ironic |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-08-03.