Logs on 2025-08-04 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:21:44 | <EvanR> | lambdabot is timeless |
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| 05:06:36 | <euouae> | Hello I have a situation where I need a dynamic stream to parse. Attoparsec has a (token, rest) type of interface, so I can continue parsing rest (after dynamically modifying it); but Megaparsec doesn't seem to have this, instead only a 'parse' function. Am I correct that it can't be done with Megaparsec? |
| 05:06:55 | <euouae> | The context is macroexpansion where the expansion is prepended to the stream |
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| 05:25:12 | <c_wraith> | euouae: is that a thing you could fake with getInput and setInput? |
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| 05:36:34 | <euouae> | c_wraith: hm, perhaps? That might be a good point. I wonder how I'd know how much has been consumed. |
| 05:37:03 | <euouae> | Oh, getInput would be the remainder, then I can setInput. Hm... Thanks for that hint! |
| 05:37:07 | euouae | will give this a try |
| 05:38:56 | <Axman6> | it feels weird to me that you effects would be _inside_ your parser, I was definitely looking for the partial result stuff other libraries offer |
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| 05:41:07 | <euouae> | Why is it weird that effects are inside the parser? |
| 05:42:08 | <euouae> | I'll give an example. Suppose I have `define(foo, 42) foo`. The first command expands to "" (empty string), but now the macro table includes foo -> 42. Then foo itself is consumed; it expands to "42", and that is prepended to the input data stream. Finally, 42 is consumed, and it outputs itself. |
| 05:42:42 | <euouae> | There is no distinction between "here I'm parsing" and "here there's effects" because to parse is to cause effects |
| 05:42:52 | <euouae> | (if I understood you correctly) |
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| 06:01:47 | <c_wraith> | Well, that particular thing is probably better handled by using ParsecT around something else that maintains a mapping for you. |
| 06:02:11 | <c_wraith> | Maybe State, maybe ReaderT IO with an IORef, whatever. |
| 06:02:45 | <c_wraith> | But the important part is that you don't need to rewrite input to handle updating a mapping table. |
| 06:03:10 | <euouae> | No, input needs to be rewritten when `foo` is expanded to `42` |
| 06:03:15 | <c_wraith> | Why? |
| 06:03:28 | <euouae> | imagine if `foo` expands to `ba` and there's an `r` next in input and a `bar` macro |
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| 06:03:49 | <euouae> | i.e. `foo()r()` --> `bar()` --> `42` |
| 06:04:02 | <euouae> | To answer "why", because that's what I'm modelling :P |
| 06:04:23 | <c_wraith> | That sounds like a system you'd only design that way to torture its users |
| 06:05:04 | <euouae> | Lambda calculus isn't much different |
| 06:05:59 | <c_wraith> | Except that you can convert it to a tree and do your evaluation outside of the *input* space. |
| 06:06:51 | <euouae> | Are we talking about lambda calculus now or my problem? |
| 06:07:11 | <c_wraith> | What you're describing is closer to a full term rewriting system like mathematica, I suppose. |
| 06:07:23 | <euouae> | To be concrete, it's GNU M4. |
| 06:09:11 | <c_wraith> | ah. definitely a system intended to torture the user |
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| 06:10:10 | <euouae> | okay, but you said "convert to tree" |
| 06:10:25 | <euouae> | how do you convert `foo()r()` to tree? |
| 06:10:25 | <c_wraith> | yes, that part was for how lambda calculus is different. |
| 06:10:32 | <euouae> | ah okay, I understand |
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| 06:10:44 | <euouae> | lambda calculus doesn't have state |
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| 06:14:06 | <euouae> | c_wraith: any other hints I'll take. I'll look into megaparsec's getInput and setInput tomorrow. |
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| 06:49:15 | <jreicher> | euouae: parsing does not causing effects, and I'm not sure why you would say that |
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| 06:54:54 | <euouae> | jreicher: why do you say that parsing does not cause effects? :) |
| 06:55:37 | <jreicher> | Because it's a pure computation. It's a function with an input, and output, and no side effects. |
| 06:56:17 | <euouae> | what if the input and output depend on state? |
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| 06:56:23 | <jreicher> | There's no such thing |
| 06:56:34 | <euouae> | Proof? |
| 06:56:38 | <jreicher> | That's like saying multiplication of integers depends on state. |
| 06:56:50 | <euouae> | Why not? |
| 06:57:08 | <jreicher> | Why doesn't multiplication of integers depend on state? |
| 06:57:26 | <euouae> | (Which multiplication?) |
| 06:57:32 | <jreicher> | Of integeres |
| 06:57:36 | <jreicher> | integers |
| 06:57:51 | <euouae> | It's not like saying that then |
| 06:58:22 | <jreicher> | It's exactly like that. Multiplication takes two integers as input and provides the product as output. A parser takes a string as input and provides the parse result as output. |
| 06:58:40 | <jreicher> | State doesn't relate to either of them, just as it doesn't relate to any pure computation. |
| 06:58:42 | <euouae> | Yes, but there is no single "parsing function", unlike your "multiplication", which you have fixed. |
| 06:58:58 | <euouae> | So in the former case I have the freedom to define the parsing function, and I can make it depend on state |
| 06:59:08 | <euouae> | If, in the latter, you allowed me to define *, I'd make it depend on state. |
| 06:59:13 | <jreicher> | It doesn't matter. You can refer to a family of functions, or you can parameterise with a grammar of some sort. However you define it, state still doesn't eom into it. |
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| 06:59:42 | <euouae> | I don't think you quite follow, but in case I'm wrong, can you explain how you'd write a parser for M$ |
| 06:59:44 | <euouae> | M4? |
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| 07:00:05 | <euouae> | Ultimately, how to take an m4 script and expand it |
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| 07:01:17 | <jreicher> | I don't know M4, but generally speaking I like writing recursive ascent parsers. |
| 07:01:43 | <euouae> | Let me give you an idea |
| 07:02:03 | <euouae> | Imagine you have a language with `define(x, y)` that adds an entry of x -> y in a table |
| 07:02:12 | <euouae> | every time from then on that you encounter x(), you must replace with y |
| 07:02:39 | <euouae> | so if you have define(foo, ba) define(bar, 42) foo()r(), how would you parse that? |
| 07:02:52 | <euouae> | the end result should be 42 |
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| 07:04:26 | <jreicher> | How does a language add an entry to a table? That's like saying "imagine you have a language that reformats a disk". It's just a meaningless mashing together of computer concepts. |
| 07:05:18 | <euouae> | what got to you today eh? |
| 07:05:38 | <jreicher> | I think you might be confusing production rules with one particular way of implementing them. But that's a guess. |
| 07:05:55 | <euouae> | yeah, an uneducated guess, I might add |
| 07:05:59 | <euouae> | since you admitted that you don't know M4 |
| 07:06:19 | <jreicher> | Is there a BNF for M4? |
| 07:07:41 | <euouae> | you're funny |
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| 07:09:12 | <jreicher> | What do you consider to be the output of the parse? |
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| 07:10:38 | <euouae> | Can I just say that I'm ticked off from your earlier insults that I don't want to bother explaining now? |
| 07:11:43 | <jreicher> | I apologise. I didn't mean to insult. What I'm driving at here is that I think there's a core confusion and I'm trying to find where it is. |
| 07:12:59 | <jreicher> | The reason I ask about the output of the parse is I'm wondering if you're actually talking about doing the macro expansion. If so, you're completely right. |
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| 07:13:17 | <euouae> | Cool |
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| 07:14:50 | <euouae> | M4 is unlike many other languages, for one, it's not context-free. |
| 07:16:08 | <jreicher> | Which would make it hard to parse, certainly, but I can't help wondering if it's not parsed at all; just expanded. |
| 07:17:14 | <euouae> | It does have some concepts: strings, comments, macros, and macro arguments. Those things need to be parsed and interpreted (=expanded) before parsing and interpreting can continue. |
| 07:17:53 | <jreicher> | Would we be on the same page if I speculated that everything up to but not including an expansion is effect-free? |
| 07:18:41 | <euouae> | barring certain exceptions that can occur, yes |
| 07:19:02 | <euouae> | by exceptions I mean EOF on argument collection, e.g. |
| 07:19:40 | <jreicher> | Cool. That sounds very similar to a "classic" implementation of an RPN calculator. One of the things that makes RPN nice is that while you parse and evaluate the first part of it you can leave the rest on the input buffer, so parsing is not complete before you do evaluation; instead the two get interleaved. But they are still separate concepts. |
| 07:21:38 | <euouae> | Alright, RPN has static syntax, but sure |
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| 07:23:30 | <jreicher> | If my recasting of this is correct (and that's a big if, considering I don't know M4), parsing routines might be the wrong thing to reach for with something that is "really" an evaluation. |
| 07:24:19 | <euouae> | Don't I need to read a string? a comment? etc? |
| 07:24:48 | <euouae> | Do you want me to do that by hand? |
| 07:25:05 | <jreicher> | It depends on how pedantic you want to be about what "parse" is. In theory you've already read in the string and then afterwards you do the parse. But I'm not sure it's helpful to split hairs like that. |
| 07:25:44 | <euouae> | I don't see the pedantry, I have M4 input and I need to read a token, act on it, read a token, act on it, etc |
| 07:25:59 | <euouae> | I can't actually convert the stream to a list of tokens -- the action modifies the stream |
| 07:26:48 | <euouae> | the "read token" phase depends on the parser state; the "act on token" phrase sets the parser state and stream, and so on. |
| 07:26:55 | <jreicher> | You mean when you act on the token you push the result back onto the stream? |
| 07:27:08 | <euouae> | That is one thing that can happen, there's more |
| 07:27:49 | <euouae> | M4 has include() to prepend files in the stream, it has m4wrap() to redirect output to different slots, etc |
| 07:28:26 | <euouae> | But to keep it simple, the example I gave above suffices: define(foo, ba) define(bar, 42) foo()r() ~~> 42 |
| 07:28:27 | <jreicher> | Yeah that sounds like execution of directives rather than just parsing |
| 07:28:38 | <euouae> | But what does it matter what they're called? |
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| 07:29:33 | <euouae> | You're just reframing it. I said parser with state, you're saying parsing and evaluation, it doesn't matter. How does any of this get me closer to actually implementing it? |
| 07:29:33 | <jreicher> | Honestly, it might not, but considering the channel we're in I'll say that some people (myself included) believe that it's helpful to separate these things in the mind and also in the code. |
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| 07:30:06 | <jreicher> | Because you can keep your parser logic out of your macro evaluation machine, possibly simplifying both |
| 07:30:45 | <euouae> | You can't, because the parser depends on the state |
| 07:31:01 | <euouae> | there's changecom() and changequote() for example, changing the syntax of strings and comments |
| 07:32:03 | <jreicher> | That's why I was asking if you push back on to the stream. I'm wondering if it makes sense to treat the "state change" wrought by some of these macro evaluations as a feeding the result into a brand new parse. |
| 07:32:17 | <euouae> | Ultimately, because I have to go, if you have something in mind to suggest, like a library, I'll take your suggestion and look into it. Otherwise, I'll give megaparsec with getInput and setInput a go, and if that does not work, I'll use Attoparsec or other. |
| 07:32:34 | <euouae> | Yes, you push back on to the stream |
| 07:32:57 | <Leary> | I think the lesson here is: let's not apply common sense to pathological languages. |
| 07:33:02 | <jreicher> | Then I would suggest you do a parse to get the first action, perform the action to produce a new string to parse, and restart |
| 07:33:26 | <euouae> | That's the plan indeed |
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| 07:59:40 | <[exa]> | spoiler: macrolanguages are either properly layered or a total mess |
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| 08:14:44 | <jreicher> | They do seem to be a special case, but having had this conversation I realise I've never seen a proper treatment of them. Is there one? |
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| 12:00:29 | <euouae> | Hello, I'm looking at these docs: <https://hackage.haskell.org/package/attoparsec-0.14.4/docs/Data-Attoparsec-Text-Lazy.html> the link for "Text" at "This is essentially the same code as in the Text module," is "broken" |
| 12:00:50 | <euouae> | e.g. it points to a page that mentions the module is deprecated; although <https://hackage.haskell.org/package/attoparsec-0.14.4/docs/Data-Attoparsec-Text.html> is not deprecated. What's the reason for this broken link? |
| 12:01:05 | <euouae> | I wanted to send a patch for it, but to be honest, I have no idea why Haddock is doing this. |
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| 12:04:08 | <Leary> | Looks like a markup error; they should have use double quotes. |
| 12:04:27 | <Leary> | used* |
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| 12:06:06 | <Leary> | Single quotes link to identifiers not modules, so 'Data.Attoparsec.Text' links to a `Text` constructor in the `Data.Attoparsec` module. |
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| 12:08:39 | <euouae> | They should've done "Data..."? |
| 12:08:44 | <Leary> | Yes. |
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| 12:08:49 | <euouae> | thanks! |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-08-04.